New tax laws

[superal]

Can anyone enlighten or confirm that the new income tax rules affect long term residents in Thailand . Extracts below .

 

Released on September 15, 2023, Revenue Order 161/2023 dictates that starting from January 1, 2024, any foreign income, regardless of its source (be it from employment, business, pension, or overseas assets), will be subject to taxation in Thailand upon its entry into the country, regardless of the year in which it was initially brought in.

 

 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS):

Alongside the recent revenue order, Thailand has formally embraced and implemented the Common Reporting Standard (CRS) in 2023. The CRS serves as a global financial information and reporting standard designed for the automatic exchange of tax and financial data on an international scale.

Under the CRS, every bank, financial institution, and about 114 other countries are now legally obliged to report all information pertaining to accounts held by Thai tax residents in the reporting countries to the Thai Revenue Department.

What is the CRS?

In essence, the CRS functions as a global financial reporting system, enabling countries to share financial data about each other’s residents. Developed by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the CRS facilitates the automatic exchange of financial account information between tax authorities worldwide, aiming to combat tax evasion.

The information shared through the CRS by most offshore or local banks for expats (if located in a CRS reporting country) and financial institutions includes comprehensive account details, and balances, as well as specifics of all deposited income, encompassing interest, dividends, and sales proceeds from financial assets.

What Information is Shared?

The CRS mandates financial institutions to gather and disclose specific details, including account balances, interest, dividends, and other income derived from financial assets.

Therefore, if you maintain a bank account or investments either domestically or internationally in a CRS reporting country, your bank and financial institutions are obligated, under the CSR, to convey to the Thai Revenue Department comprehensive information about your accounts. This includes all pertinent details such as your name, address, and account numbers, along with a breakdown of all balances and particulars of all deposited income. This encompasses various sources of income such as salaries, pensions, interest, dividends, and proceeds from the sale of assets, each categorized and classified according to the different income types recognized by your bank.

[MJCM]

Maybe this thread has the answers you are looking for

 

 

[Liquorice]

Has anyone knocked on your door telling you to register for tax liabilities - thought not!

[superal]

32 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Maybe this thread has the answers you are looking for

 

 

Thanks and I hope you are right . However after searching on Google I cannot find any statement to back you up , only info shows similar to mine . Has there been an amendment which eliminates tax on pensions ? Starting January 1st 2024 and counting 180 days residency , after which the new rules kick in 

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, superal said:

Thanks and I hope you are right . However after searching on Google I cannot find any statement to back you up , only info shows similar to mine . Has there been an amendment which eliminates tax on pensions ? Starting January 1st 2024 and counting 180 days residency , after which the new rules kick in 

As far as I'm aware, nothing further has been announced and I think that most folks have now adopted a 'wait and see' attitude.  Quite wisely IMO

 

Regarding your specific query, ref pensions, this was mentioned at the time of the announcement in the Thai Enquirer, plus other publications.

 

They reported, I quote:  'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'. I, along with many others are taking shelter (at least psychologically ) behind that sentence.

 

Full article is here

[topt]

1 hour ago, superal said:

Thanks and I hope you are right . However after searching on Google I cannot find any statement to back you up , only info shows similar to mine . Has there been an amendment which eliminates tax on pensions ? Starting January 1st 2024 and counting 180 days residency , after which the new rules kick in 

Have you read all of the link you were given?

 

Looked at any of the other tax threads running.........

1 hour ago, superal said:

Has there been an amendment which eliminates tax on pensions ?

Simplistically no but depends on what you remit, when it was earned and what it may say in any DTA your home country may have with Thailand plus Thai allowances - all covered in the link you were given..........

[Cuchulainn]

Will Immigration start asking for proof of tax payment forms for Non Immigrant O or B visa extensions next year?

[Mike Lister]

The OP needs to read ALL of the document supplied in the link and then come back to us with questions.

[superal]

3 hours ago, MJCM said:

Maybe this thread has the answers you are looking for

 

 

Thanks . This time I opened your link and after a read I found the extract below . So the assumption is that UK State pensions are not exempt from Thai tax . A Thai tax credit will be issued on proof of UK tax paid and offset against income . Or at least that is my interpretation . Do you agree ?

 

PENSIONS

 

32) Another common type of income is pensions, which may not be straight forward, depending on the type of pension and the country that it comes from. The country of origin is important because there are over 60 different types of Dual Tax Agreements, sometimes called Double Taxation Agreements (DTA’s), between Thailand and those 60+ countries and each DTA is different. As a general rule, most private or company pension, from most countries, appear to be assessable here but YOU will need to confirm that yours is, or is not. As said previously, any tax that has been paid on those pensions in the home country, can be used to offset any tax that is due under Thai RD rules, if the Thai rates of tax are higher and if any tax is due.

From another source 

Details about the double tax convention signed by Thailand

The main provisions of a double taxation agreement are related to the avoidance of paying the income taxes twice, in Thailand and in the other contracted state. It is good to know that Thailand signed important double taxation conventions with 59 countries and here we mention the following: Philippines, New Zealand, Pakistan, Romania, Singapore, Armenia, Bahrain, Cyprus, Denmark, India, Estonia, Israel, Finland,  Italy, Czech Republic, China, Australia, Chile, Ireland, Canada, Kuwait, Myanmar, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan, Bangladesh, US, Spain, Slovenia, Poland, Switzerland, South Africa, Mauritius, Ukraine, Laos, Indonesia, the UAE, Luxembourg, Nepal, France, Bulgaria, Germany, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK, Hungary, Vietnam, Turkey, Oman, Uzbekistan, Seychelles, Japan, Belgium, Austria, Hong Kong S.A.R., Sri Lanka, Tajikistan.

 

 

 

UK PENSIONS

 

UK Pensions fall into two categories:

 

a) Public Sector (Government): includes Civil Service, Armed Forces and some NHS

b) Private Sector: includes UK State Pension, Company Pensions and private pensions

 

33) The UK/Thai DTA specifically mentions Government Pensions, which can only be taxed in the UK. Private Sector pensions are not mentioned in the DTA and are capable of being taxed in Thailand, unless they have been taxed in the UK, in which case a credit is issued against tax payable in Thailand.

 

TAX RESIDENCY

 

21) If you stay in Thailand for more than a cumulative 179 days, between 1 January and 31 December each year, you will be and always were considered to be Tax Resident in Thailand during that year, almost entirely  regardless of the type of visa you have (special tax exempt classes of visa excluded). It doesn’t matter that you may be Tax Resident in your home country or elsewhere or that you pay tax in those countries, Thailand will still regard you as Tax Resident. Tax Residency and Immigration status (and the visa you hold) are different things. Tax residency is based solely on the number of days you spend in Thailand. A day appears to be counted using the entry and exit stamps in your passport, unlike many other countries where it is determined by where you are at midnight. The number of days counter reverts to zero, on 1 January each year.

 

So for some expats in Thailand 179 days from Jan 1st 2024 , there after they will be subject to Thai tax laws 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, superal said:

Thanks . This time I opened your link and after a read I found the extract below . So the assumption is that UK State pensions are not exempt from Thai tax . A Thai tax credit will be issued on proof of UK tax paid and offset against income . Or at least that is my interpretation . Do you agree ?

 

PENSIONS

 

32) Another common type of income is pensions, which may not be straight forward, depending on the type of pension and the country that it comes from. The country of origin is important because there are over 60 different types of Dual Tax Agreements, sometimes called Double Taxation Agreements (DTA’s), between Thailand and those 60+ countries and each DTA is different. As a general rule, most private or company pension, from most countries, appear to be assessable here but YOU will need to confirm that yours is, or is not. As said previously, any tax that has been paid on those pensions in the home country, can be used to offset any tax that is due under Thai RD rules, if the Thai rates of tax are higher and if any tax is due.

From another source 

Details about the double tax convention signed by Thailand

The main provisions of a double taxation agreement are related to the avoidance of paying the income taxes twice, in Thailand and in the other contracted state. It is good to know that Thailand signed important double taxation conventions with 59 countries and here we mention the following: Philippines, New Zealand, Pakistan, Romania, Singapore, Armenia, Bahrain, Cyprus, Denmark, India, Estonia, Israel, Finland,  Italy, Czech Republic, China, Australia, Chile, Ireland, Canada, Kuwait, Myanmar, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan, Bangladesh, US, Spain, Slovenia, Poland, Switzerland, South Africa, Mauritius, Ukraine, Laos, Indonesia, the UAE, Luxembourg, Nepal, France, Bulgaria, Germany, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK, Hungary, Vietnam, Turkey, Oman, Uzbekistan, Seychelles, Japan, Belgium, Austria, Hong Kong S.A.R., Sri Lanka, Tajikistan.

 

 

 

UK PENSIONS

 

UK Pensions fall into two categories:

 

a) Public Sector (Government): includes Civil Service, Armed Forces and some NHS

b) Private Sector: includes UK State Pension, Company Pensions and private pensions

 

33) The UK/Thai DTA specifically mentions Government Pensions, which can only be taxed in the UK. Private Sector pensions are not mentioned in the DTA and are capable of being taxed in Thailand, unless they have been taxed in the UK, in which case a credit is issued against tax payable in Thailand.

 

TAX RESIDENCY

 

21) If you stay in Thailand for more than a cumulative 179 days, between 1 January and 31 December each year, you will be and always were considered to be Tax Resident in Thailand during that year, almost entirely  regardless of the type of visa you have (special tax exempt classes of visa excluded). It doesn’t matter that you may be Tax Resident in your home country or elsewhere or that you pay tax in those countries, Thailand will still regard you as Tax Resident. Tax Residency and Immigration status (and the visa you hold) are different things. Tax residency is based solely on the number of days you spend in Thailand. A day appears to be counted using the entry and exit stamps in your passport, unlike many other countries where it is determined by where you are at midnight. The number of days counter reverts to zero, on 1 January each year.

 

So for some expats in Thailand 179 days from Jan 1st 2024 , there after they will be subject to Thai tax laws 

 

That is correct.

 

 

 

[worrab]

19 hours ago, Cuchulainn said:

Will Immigration start asking for proof of tax payment forms for Non Immigrant O or B visa extensions next year?

Simple answer is No! 
Two totally different departments with no links.

[Presnock]

First of all, until the FINAL decree is approved and published in the Royal Gazette, EVERYTHING is just a rumor or possibility or however one wants to call it.  I see the same questions over and over.  There are 59 or 61 whichever you have read double taxation agreements between countries and Thailand.  I for one only will read that of the US as that is the only one that pertains to me and my income and the US agreement with Thailand.  If you are an ex-pat from some other country, I suggest you read your country's DTA with Thailand, after all you are the only one that understands what income you have and how it is affected within the DTA.  I have also checked the Thai Revenue Department on a related issue - that of getting a Thai Tax ID number.  That too is readily available on the internet and I suggest one read that too as I sure wouldn't want to mislead anyone.  We have had several people do a lot of research on this issue, some have talked with "TAX experts", some embassies have held seminars which were available to some of the readers here and it basically still comes down to the fact that until the new regulations are officially reported, nothing is guaranteed.  And even then, TIT and things might change immediately or with the next government.  But, I am no longer going to repeat what I have read about this issue so good luck...3 more months and if one has been here the 1st 3months of this year, and is still here after June, then you are a tax resident and will be affected somewhat and maybe by then the Thai govt might publish something official.  Good Luck.  Got my LTR and know exactly where I CURRENTLY stand on this issue but...TIT.

[Surasak]

If you are over 65 years old and do not transfer more than 500K into Thailand (Given all the allowances), then you are not required to pay tax in Thailand. In fact you do not have to register at the tax office, as they are not interested in the extra work that would generate given the number of foreigners in the country.

 

[Mike Lister]

30 minutes ago, Presnock said:

First of all, until the FINAL decree is approved and published in the Royal Gazette, EVERYTHING is just a rumor or possibility or however one wants to call it.  I see the same questions over and over.  There are 59 or 61 whichever you have read double taxation agreements between countries and Thailand.  I for one only will read that of the US as that is the only one that pertains to me and my income and the US agreement with Thailand.  If you are an ex-pat from some other country, I suggest you read your country's DTA with Thailand, after all you are the only one that understands what income you have and how it is affected within the DTA.  I have also checked the Thai Revenue Department on a related issue - that of getting a Thai Tax ID number.  That too is readily available on the internet and I suggest one read that too as I sure wouldn't want to mislead anyone.  We have had several people do a lot of research on this issue, some have talked with "TAX experts", some embassies have held seminars which were available to some of the readers here and it basically still comes down to the fact that until the new regulations are officially reported, nothing is guaranteed.  And even then, TIT and things might change immediately or with the next government.  But, I am no longer going to repeat what I have read about this issue so good luck...3 more months and if one has been here the 1st 3months of this year, and is still here after June, then you are a tax resident and will be affected somewhat and maybe by then the Thai govt might publish something official.  Good Luck.  Got my LTR and know exactly where I CURRENTLY stand on this issue but...TIT.

I believe that is incorrect, the new interpretation of the existing tax rule in a departmental instruction that does not require to be gazetted since it is not a new law. 

 

"As of 1 January B.E. 2567 (2024), the Revenue Department has enforced its department instruction P. 161/2566 to tax any Thai citizen or a foreigner with Thai residency, who receives an income within Thailand. Sources of income earned outside of Thailand are excluded from taxation".

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/thailand-new-tax-on-foreign-income-an-overview/#:~:text=As of 1 January B.E.,are excluded from taxation%2C however.

 

[BritManToo]

22 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Has anyone knocked on your door telling you to register for tax liabilities - thought not!

Agree, it's all nonsense, there's no way the Thai tax department could ever find out your foreign income or tax it.

If anyone asks me, I have 400kbht in the bank (as required by immigration) and no income, I live off my Thai wife.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Surasak said:

If you are over 65 years old and do not transfer more than 500K into Thailand (Given all the allowances), then you are not required to pay tax in Thailand. In fact you do not have to register at the tax office, as they are not interested in the extra work that would generate given the number of foreigners in the country.

 

That is incorrect guidance and is highly inappropriate!

 

The basic deductions for an over 65 year old are 190k for over age 65 years plus 60k personal allowance. There is also a zero tax rated band of 150k. If the difference between those two allowances and the 500k you mention is derived from ANY source that is not covered by a DTA and/or is taxed at a lower rate in the home country than it is in Thailand, the income is assessable to Thai tax. Not registering for a TIN and not filing taxes to declare that income, assuming the person was Thai tax resident, means that person is guilty of tax evasion for which there are harsh penalties.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Agree, it's all nonsense, there's no way the Thai tax department could ever find out your foreign income or tax it.

If anyone asks me, I have 400kbht in the bank (as required by immigration) and no income, I live off my Thai wife.

The issue is what the law is or isn't, not how the Revenue might find out about people who are trying to fly under the radar.

[Ben Zioner]

27 minutes ago, Surasak said:

If you are over 65 years old and do not transfer more than 500K into Thailand (Given all the allowances

Don't get it, with 500K you are unlikely to stay longer than the 179 days, that would make you tax resident. And, you'd need to show more that that to get a non-O extension for retirement.

[Ben Zioner]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue is what the law is or isn't, not how the Revenue might find out about people who are trying to fly under the radar.

Many will, and in two or three years time time this forum will be buzzing with some new kind of stories. 

[Wrwest]

30 minutes ago, Surasak said:

If you are over 65 years old and do not transfer more than 500K into Thailand (Given all the allowances), then you are not required to pay tax in Thailand. In fact you do not have to register at the tax office, as they are not interested in the extra work that would generate given the number of foreigners in the country.

 

Agreed. US citizen, using the 65,000 per month brought into Thailand Immigration Requirement for the "O" Visa for reason of retirement. As Thailand is my only global resident country, I am and will continue to follow this issue. However, my American Tax filing company advises not to be concerned based on the sources of my retirement income in the USA and the tax treaty. I do note that US citizens are required to report their worldwide income for taxation to the US. Anyway, even transferring, usually 1 million baht, I will not spend any time in stress at this time. Having worked in US income tax system my entire adult life and consulting the Master Tax Guide annually, it is amazing to me that Thailand would try to deal with the American tax system ... it is akin to herding cats with so many variables and to think the individual will be responsible for conforming with the complexities? Non-starter ... as free individuals, most retirees can go elsewhere if the worse happens.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

Agreed. US citizen, using the 65,000 per month brought into Thailand Immigration Requirement for the "O" Visa for reason of retirement. As Thailand is my only global resident country, I am and will continue to follow this issue. However, my American Tax filing company advises not to be concerned based on the sources of my retirement income in the USA and the tax treaty. I do note that US citizens are required to report their worldwide income for taxation to the US. Anyway, even transferring, usually 1 million baht, I will not spend any time in stress at this time. Having worked in US income tax system my entire adult life and consulting the Master Tax Guide annually, it is amazing to me that Thailand would try to deal with the American tax system ... it is akin to herding cats with so many variables and to think the individual will be responsible for conforming with the complexities? Non-starter ... as free individuals, most retirees can go elsewhere if the worse happens.

If you agree with that post you quoted, you need to start studying tax law once again but with a focus on Thai tax rules this time...the post is quite simply, wrong.

 

 

[TigerandDog]

23 hours ago, superal said:

Thanks and I hope you are right . However after searching on Google I cannot find any statement to back you up , only info shows similar to mine . Has there been an amendment which eliminates tax on pensions ? Starting January 1st 2024 and counting 180 days residency , after which the new rules kick in 

The rules regarding pensions will depend on whether your home country has a DTA with Thailand.  

 

Seeing as practically all the posts on this topic tend to refer to either the UK or US, I repost the information that I've previously posted with regards to the Australian Govt (aged) pension.

 

#1. If you are tax resident in Australia the aged pension is tax free.

#2. If you are a non tax resident of Australia and have been continuing to lodge aussie tax returns your aged pension & other income is being taxed at a minimum rate of 32%

#3. Under the Oz/Thai DTA if you are a Thai tax resident, ONLY Thailand has the right to legally tax you, and as such you are entitled to claim back ALL tax paid in Oz on your aged pension or any other tax paid for that matter for every year you have been a Thai tax resident.

#4. Therefore, unfortunately  aussie aged pensions are deemed to be income and tax assessable in Thailand if you are a Thai tax resident.

 

The above information has been confirmed by a tax accountant in Oz that specialises in the Oz/Thai DTA. I did previously post a copy of documentation supporting the above, but I no longer have a copy to repost. 

[Srikcir]

23 hours ago, superal said:

Under the CRS, every bank, financial institution, and about 114 other countries are now legally obliged to report all information pertaining to accounts held by Thai tax residents in the reporting countries to the Thai Revenue Department.

Somewhat tangential to the new tax laws, in my request to a Thai bank to refund a miniscule amount of interest tax withheld from my savings account's miniscule interest income, the bank required same financial information under CRS, including foreign tax revenue information. As you might agree, your foreign tax account information is very potentially vulnerable to data theft, even by Thai bank employees. But I reasoned that giving that data to a Thai bank makes it potentially liable if stolen, ie., under the Personal Data Act.

So I asked the bank customer service rep to confirm that it is the bank that I'm giving such data. The response was no, data is collected by a contractor on behalf of the bank. ???

Contractor name I didn't recognize, never heard of before either in Thailand nor internationally. Rep. couldn't provide any detail on the contractor. There was no signed statement by the contractor offered by the bank that it would be responsible for any theft of personal tax information. As my tax refund was very negligible to the negligible amount of savings interest earned, I declined to complete the data form. 

Note: I don't recall the contractor's name. Furthermore, transfer of my foreign funds to Thailand is not taxable under the new law due to LTR visa under a Royal Proclamation. To assure no automatic withholding on foreign transfers (ie., by its International Trade Deoartment), I sent a certified letter to provencial bank headquarters to that effect with copies of my passport, passbook and visa stamp. Bank never responded to my letter but the government has since clarified what foreign transfers are and are not subject to Thai taxation for foreign residents.

[Bangkok Barry]

23 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Has anyone knocked on your door telling you to register for tax liabilities - thought not!

 

Maybe when you apply for your next extension? I'm sure that some will bring it up, even if it is irrelevant to your application.

[Bangkok Barry]

20 hours ago, superal said:

A Thai tax credit will be issued on proof of UK tax paid and offset against income

 

I am exempt form UK tax as my pensions are below the taxable level. So I would have no such proof of tax paid as I haven't paid any. That'll confuse them, because all farangs are rich so I must have paid tax.

[xeniv23]

23 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Has anyone knocked on your door telling you to register for tax liabilities - thought not!

I don't think that anyone will come knocking on your door.  It's possible that you will just be doing the routine paperwork for an extension and suddenly the IO will ask "Where are your Thai Tax Documents.....?  No Documents No Extension?"  Just a guess.  It could be official policy or an IO just jerking your chain.  The way things work around here you just never know.  

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

The issue is what the law is or isn't, not how the Revenue might find out about people who are trying to fly under the radar.

The issue about any law is will 'they' enforce it, are 'they' even barely competent and what is the probability of being caught and punished for breaking it.

 

Which in Thailand is close to ZERO!

[BritManToo]

19 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Maybe when you apply for your next extension? I'm sure that some will bring it up, even if it is irrelevant to your application.

Well my next extension is October, before this year's tax collecting, so I'm good until at least October 2025. After that if no extension, I'll just abandon my mortgage, wife and kids, moving to Cambodia or PI.

 

As an old guy, I may well be dead before then, so no real worries.

[Liquorice]

21 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

Maybe when you apply for your next extension? I'm sure that some will bring it up, even if it is irrelevant to your application.

Maybe you should speak to your local Thai Tax office for some clarity.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The issue about any law is will 'they' enforce it, are 'they' even barely competent and what is the probability of being caught and punished for breaking it.

 

Which in Thailand is close to ZERO!

You should change your posting name to Maverick, always trying to fly under the radar. 🙂