Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[ukrules]

I'm still taking the long holiday option and keeping my days below 180, I'll learn from the rest of you what happens.

 

I'm off to Cambodia soon.

[MartinBangkok]

On 4/27/2024 at 1:07 AM, ukrules said:

I'm still taking the long holiday option and keeping my days below 180, I'll learn from the rest of you what happens.

 

I'm off to Cambodia soon.

I've done it already. Not Cambodia, but not far from Thailand 😉

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

I've done it already. Not Cambodia, but not far from Thailand 😉

 

I'm not there yet but going pretty soon! Want to leave some room for a couple of trips back later this year with room to stay under the 180 days

[CartagenaWarlock]

I have a few options. I have already spent 2.5 months in Thailand this year. Now I'm in the US. I will spend another two months in Thailand; I am not sure when. My plan was to spend more time in Thailand than my usual six months, but that is not going to happen unless I start drawing my SS in 2026. I am thinking about spending two/three months in India. Now it is boiling everywhere in South and Southeast Asia. After that, the monsoon will come. So, looks like I'm stuck in the US for now.

[JimGant]

22 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Now I'm in the US.

Are you a US citizen? If so, why do you think your total tax bill, between both countries, will be higher than if the pre 2024 Thai tax rules were still in effect?

[AreYouGerman]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:04 PM, Dogmatix said:

 

The Thai bureaucrats and politicians don't care.  The Thai Revenue Code has always said anyone who spends more than 180 days in the Kingdom is a Thai tax residents and liable to pay Thai income tax, regardless of nationality or benefits they think they get from the tax.  Many Thais are also not happy with how their tax money is spent and it is very clear that much of it is wasted or outright stolen but nothing they can do about it. Most can't leave like you can.

 

Rightfully so! Foreigners must pay to the full extend of the Thai tax law and every filing should be extra carefully audited as every Thai knows about the the dirty tricks from farangs to circumvent the law.

 

Shady farang, watch out!

[CartagenaWarlock]

Just now, JimGant said:

Are you a US citizen? If so, why do you think your total tax bill, between both countries, will be higher than if the pre 2024 Thai tax rules were still in effect?

Yes. I don't want to mess with Thai bureaucracy. In two more years, I will start getting my SS, which at the current rate will be around $3,300. If I bring 2K, I can declare everything from my SS, which will be tax free. Now I bring the same amount from my 401(K), and I also have other income from my part-time consulting job.  It will be simpler when I get my SS. 

[Kalasin Jo]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:11 AM, Neeranam said:

The 30 baht health payment scheme no longer exists. It is the universal health system which costs nothing. 

Ah that's why my wife has stopped asking me for 30 baht each and every

hospital outpatient attendance then!

And would tax resident expats really be such a huge burden? May be. May be not.  There aren't that many of us but most of us are old if not working here and in the system anyway. 

I know a few Thais who are resident in the EU and can and do claim benefits as well as healthcare, working or not.

My own opinion is that the simplest thing regarding tax here is simply to exclude pensioner retirees pension income. After all I spend nearly all of it here anyway, alot of it supporting my Thai family,  but get no recognition, no benefits other than toll free roads... and I don't use those so much these days. Sadly as a a Brit there is nothing in the relevant DTA that takes away double taxation on pensions, private or state. The only one that is covered is a government pension for its retired employees.

But it is what it is. It looks as if with the various allowances in the Thai tax system I won't be paying much, if any, tax here but will nevertheless have the hassle of doing a tax declaration.

[Kalasin Jo]

2 hours ago, Kalasin Jo said:

And would tax resident expats really be such a huge burden?

A further thought. If it is rightly considered we tax resident retired pensioners would be a huge burden, at least from the cost point of view why not do as the French? They have a contributory, means assessed, system for foreign residents not in work such as retirees and early retirees using their State Healthcare System.

Complicated? Not at all. Legal residency obligates you to register in the French tax system and declare your revenues, arising wherever in the world in fact, whether remitted to France or not. The means test uses your annual tax assessment to arrive at your contribution, which is then paid monthly.

[nitayagirl]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:33 PM, parallelman said:

There is a Thai proverb which amounts to the same thing  โลภมากสวภหวย it has a couple of meanings sometimes pictured as a canine has a bone in its mouth but sees a magnified reflection (perhaps in a river) and tries to grab it thus losing the real bone in the process.😀

 

The proverb is โลภมาก ลาภหาย.

[parallelman]

3 hours ago, nitayagirl said:

 

The proverb is โลภมาก ลาภหาย.

Thank you. Not the first time I have made that typo.

[DrPhibes]

On 5/2/2024 at 11:01 PM, JimGant said:

Are you a US citizen? If so, why do you think your total tax bill, between both countries, will be higher than if the pre 2024 Thai tax rules were still in effect?

He may not be familiar with foreign tax credit on the US return.

[gk10012001]

so assuming somebody owes some taxes.. does thailand penalize you if you owed too much just as the USA IRS does?  The IRS in general expects taxes to be paid contemporaneously and penalizes a person if too much is owed at the end of the year.  Any of you that have filed Thailand income taxes?  I ask because assuming the Thai authorities start going after all expats or visitors that have been in the country for 182 days, how would the process even begin?  With the revenu department search the immigration databases and try to contact any body that they count as being in country for 182 days?  What happens if the person was in for over 182 days but then left and say.. returned the next year?  All variations on a theme but more to the point is are there late penalties and how will Thailand and will thailand query every visitor's stay record?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, gk10012001 said:

so assuming somebody owes some taxes.. does thailand penalize you if you owed too much just as the USA IRS does?  The IRS in general expects taxes to be paid contemporaneously and penalizes a person if too much is owed at the end of the year.  Any of you that have filed Thailand income taxes?  I ask because assuming the Thai authorities start going after all expats or visitors that have been in the country for 182 days, how would the process even begin?  With the revenu department search the immigration databases and try to contact any body that they count as being in country for 182 days?  What happens if the person was in for over 182 days but then left and say.. returned the next year?  All variations on a theme but more to the point is are there late penalties and how will Thailand and will thailand query every visitor's stay record?

Far too many questions for which we don't yet have answers, we really don't know yet how this will play out in practise.

 

I don't think there's any chance of things happening the way you've described. "Penalties for owing too much tax at year"....no chance, that requires an effective tax at source system that doesn't exist here.

 

I also don't think the Revenue will be scouring the databases for people who have stayed for more than 180 days, Thailand has a buoyant tourism industry, there are far too many people coming and going.

 

What I think is probable in the future is that long term visa renewals will require some sort of tax clearance certificate from the revenue, before the person can be granted a visa extension or can leave the country.  That sort of system will require visa holders to file tac returns and do some tax accounting each year. That system already exists for some visa categories but requires Revenue to put processes in place to allow it to happen before it is used more widely.

 

The way I personally imagine this will play out is, the Revenue will wait until next year to see how many more people file tax returns as a result of the new law, I would expect there to be a natural increase but I can't gauge how large. The Revenue objective is to increase the number of people in the tax net and to increase the tax take. If it appears that those things are growing and there is momentum, that will probably be seen as a win for the Revenue who may then go on to take additional measure. I imagine their worst fear is that the numbers don't change, this is because most people ignore the Revenue and don't see them as the same sort of threat or risk that people in the West do. If that happens, expect Tax Clearance Certificates to be implemented quite quickly.

[redwood1]

People here forget this half baked mess of a so called tax is also for the millions of Thais too who know nothing about paying a tax because the never have....This is the common folks...

You can be sure the very wealthy will make sure they never cough up a single baht for any tax...

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

People here forget this half baked mess of a so called tax is also for the millions of Thais too who know nothing about paying a tax because the never have....This is the common folks...

You can be sure the very wealthy will make sure they never cough up a single baht for any tax...

A fella's got to be fair and reasonable about this. It's not a half baked mess and it's not a so called tax! It's a single adjustment to one of the tax rules, that's all. The half baked mess part is the panic and scurrying that many foreigners have created that results from their very recent awareness that they too have to pay tax in Thailand and have been required to do so all along. That coin is now dropping!

[lordgrinz]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

A fella's got to be fair and reasonable about this. It's not a half baked mess and it's not a so called tax! It's a single adjustment to one of the tax rules, that's all. The half baked mess part is the panic and scurrying that many foreigners have created that results from their very recent awareness that they too have to pay tax in Thailand and have been required to do so all along. That coin is now dropping!

 

Well not exactly, most of us have lived off the income stored for over one year before being remitted approach, which is now in jeapordy. The other issue is how they will now handle savings that we have that were there before January 1st 2024. I hope all of the guinea pigs remitting money this year give us a rundown of how their tax situation plays out when doing there taxes next year.

[Mike Lister]

14 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Well not exactly, most of us have lived off the income stored for over one year before being remitted approach, which is now in jeapordy. The other issue is how they will now handle savings that we have that were there before January 1st 2024. I hope all of the guinea pigs remitting money this year give us a rundown of how their tax situation plays out when doing there taxes next year.

Don't forget there is a large segment of the expat community who have pensions remitted directly to Thailand, in the month they are paid. I receive my UK State pension that way and also my US SSc income, both by direct deposit. Many of those people will use the income method to obtain their visa's, I do not and am on the 400k in the bank method. So when you say, "most of us" I think it's more appropriate to say, "some of us".

 

If you have pre 1 January 2024 savings and you have a bank statement showing the amounts on that date on near to, you are in the clear to remit those funds, why wouldn't you be?

 

And, I don't know what the average statistics are but if 100 people remit funds to Thailand, and file a tax return, what percentage do you think will get singled out for audit? I'm guessing perhaps one!

 

[lordgrinz]

57 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If you have pre 1 January 2024 savings and you have a bank statement showing the amounts on that date on near to, you are in the clear to remit those funds, why wouldn't you be?

 

And, I don't know what the average statistics are but if 100 people remit funds to Thailand, and file a tax return, what percentage do you think will get singled out for audit? I'm guessing perhaps one!

 

 

I'm still not buying the it's ok to remit the prior to 2024 savings amount, until I have concrete proof of others doing so, there is no way I am going to be the first to test that theory. 

 

I also don't want to be part of those willing to test the less than 1 percent audit theory either.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I'm still not buying the it's ok to remit the prior to 2024 savings amount, until I have concrete proof of others doing so, there is no way I am going to be the first to test that theory. 

 

I also don't want to be part of those willing to test the less than 1 percent audit theory either.

Fair enough, it's your decison.

[UWEB]

On 5/2/2024 at 11:30 PM, AreYouGerman said:

 

Rightfully so! Foreigners must pay to the full extend of the Thai tax law and every filing should be extra carefully audited as every Thai knows about the the dirty tricks from farangs to circumvent the law.

 

Shady farang, watch out!

Wondering why people are posting a comment here while not even living in Thailand.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Don't forget there is a large segment of the expat community who have pensions remitted directly to Thailand, in the month they are paid. I receive my UK State pension that way and also my US SSc income, both by direct deposit. Many of those people will use the income method to obtain their visa's, I do not and am on the 400k in the bank method. So when you say, "most of us" I think it's more appropriate to say, "some of us".

Yes, an some of you may not have sufficient tax credit on these pensions and where liable to pay some IT in Thailand. RD can go back ten years for those who didn't file tax returns.

Never understood that some people didn't "buffer" their income as this was a clear requirement for IT exemption, prior to Jan 1, 2024.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes, an some of you may not have sufficient tax credit on these pensions and where liable to pay some IT in Thailand. RD can go back ten years for those who didn't file tax returns.

Never understood that some people didn't "buffer" their income as this was a clear requirement for IT exemption, prior to Jan 1, 2024.

Speaking solely for myself.....I've only been doing direct deposit for two years and I filed returns for both those years.

[AreYouGerman]

4 hours ago, UWEB said:

Wondering why people are posting a comment here while not even living in Thailand.

 

Who wants to live in a country that taxes you, treats you as a criminal, doesn't give you a real long term visa.

 

Anyway, you replied to a sarcastic post of me which tries to call out this ridiculous tax and the 'go back to your home country' Aseanow brigade.

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

Who wants to live in a country that taxes you, treats you as a criminal, doesn't give you a real long term visa.

 

Anyway, you replied to a sarcastic post of me which tries to call out this ridiculous tax and the 'go back to your home country' Aseanow brigade.

What are your alternatives for people 55+?

 

I'm currently looking for places that accept in country bank deposits under 25k Usd or better yet just show me money with accounts in my home country only.

 

I already know about Cambodia, Mexico, Philippines & Mauritus.

Edited May 10 by JimTripper

[SingAPorn]

What next ? it's Vietnam,Panama, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Dubai,  Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines or even India...!! Far better tax incentives, more simple visa requirements and better treatment to foreigners.

Edited May 10 by SingAPorn

[AreYouGerman]

19 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

What are your alternatives? I'm currently looking for places that accept in country bank deposits under 20k Usd or better yet just show me money with accounts in my home country only.

 

Phillipines.

[JimTripper]

32 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

Phillipines.

That's a downgrade. I'm only interested in upgrades in lifestyle.

[AreYouGerman]

7 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

That's a downgrade. I'm only interested in upgrades in lifestyle.

 

How's that a downgrade?

 

Also you were just giving your requirements and the answer for that would be the Phillipines. Now you have more requirements? Well, next time you should be more specific about what you are looking for.
😊

[Sigmund]

Tax wise and visa wise, Dubai seems a good alternative versus the Thai LTR visa and not all that pricey, assuming one has a healthy normal lifestyle with no daily partying and chasing women in hooker bars. No visa issues or scams.