NATO should recruit Thailand, Singapore, Philippines, Japan, and more, ex-commander says

[stix40]

Good idea

Thailand has stealth submarine 

No engine

Very quiet!!

[Sydebolle]

16 hours ago, Aleksey75 said:

Well, Australia participates in Eurovision Song Contest, not being in Europe  - why cannot the Atlantic find themselves here in the Pacific area?

Points taken yet singing a song and talking military issues might not be on a balanced scale. 

On Eurovision I have a slightly distorted view after 2014, when absolutely unknown artists rocked up and Conchita Wurst from Austria (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaolVEJEjV4) walked away with gold.

(S)he "confused" all other (embarrassed) contestants (to stay within PC limits) yet nobody dared to speak their mind while this bloke's 15 minutes of fame poured in enough cash for the rest of his (today absolutely irrelevant) life 😉 

So, having Australia participating in the Eurovision is a blessing as the Europeans also lost the plot on that - politically speaking irrelevant - contribution to art and music in the 21st century 

[Sydebolle]

19 hours ago, farangkinok said:

"never cease" but point taken. 

Running a spellchecker (German French) in the background seem to have created this particular beauty (corrected back from suggested  "beauté") so yes, wonders indeed never cease ....... 

[Schnicnac]

1 hour ago, frank83628 said:

seems to be a lot more US bases round China then there are Chinese bases around the US.

how many countries have the US invaded in the last 30rs compared to Russia and China?

 

 keep Russia and China as the evil dictators to the public with lies and propaganda, it's called manufacturing consent.

 

 

Guess that also explains the extraordinary overreach of US taxation lamentably harassing its ordinary citizens overseas with related paperwork and pay demands...those very laborious citizens that left and live (and benefit from) in another country and its infrastructure... all this machine, the bases all over the world and the companies benefiting from it cost money. Of course any crisis and conflict is another revenue boost.. 

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, frank83628 said:

how many countries have the US invaded in the last 30rs compared to Russia and China?

 

Let's be more specific and talk about invasion, annexation or being involved in territorial disputes in order to gain control of another country or parts of it ok? Russia has taken over Chechnya, Crimea and now Donbas. They've also done the first steps with splitting off Abkhazia and Ossetia from Georgia. China has gained complete control of Hong Kong and removed its freedoms by force. China has been or still is in territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, and Taiwan. China has repeatedly threatened Taiwan with invasion to take over and merge them into China. The US? None.

[Schnicnac]

6 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

 

Let's be more specific and talk about invasion, annexation or being involved in territorial disputes in order to gain control of another country or parts of it ok? Russia has taken over Chechnya, Crimea and now Donbas. They've also done the first steps with splitting off Abkhazia and Ossetia from Georgia. China has gained complete control of Hong Kong and removed its freedoms by force. China has been or still is in territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, and Taiwan. China has repeatedly threatened Taiwan with invasion to take over and merge them into China. The US? None.

 

Haven't seen Russia or China shipping troops thousands of kilometers from their shores to search in vain for nuclear weapons or fighting another system, but rather engage in disputes with neighbors which is pretty more common than you may think.

 

Since the end of Britain's 99 year lease in 1997 China has re-exercised control over the whole of Hong Kong and two years later Macau, nothing new about it. Actually by just looking at a map you may find out they are located at the Southern tip of Guangdong, write and speak Chinese 🙂If you think about it, the Qing had been pretty generous to even give Britain such a long lease after being defeated in wars against state sponsored drug trafficking.

 

And last but not least, even the Republic of China on Taiwan (yes that's the formal name) happens to have maritime disputes in the South China Sea overlapping for example with those of the Philippines as it conflicts with their not 9 but 11 dash line. So what are we going to do about it? 🙂

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

You have really embraced all the western propaganda and washed it down with tonnes of kool aid. If ever there’s such a thing as a paid shill, you are it.

 

Oh great now you accuse me of being paid to post on Asean Now? I must have earned a lot of money in the past decade. Or maybe you are just talking out of your behind. It's funny how you think that I living in a neutral country and having no business with China or the US am so biased towards the west compared to you who is living or spending a lot of time in China is totally not influenced by chinese propaganda. You can find many posts of yours where you are praising China in various threads in recent years. Step back and try to see what's more likely.

 

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

To you, China and Russia are aggressors and bullies but which country has over 800 military bases around the world and which countries have been involved in more wars in the last few decades than China and Russia (and probably many other countries) combined? I of course know your response to that so you can save yourself some energy and no need to answer.

 

I am not a fan of the US and they definitely pulled some crap. But the point is they didn't annex anything while Russia and China did or are trying to. There is a very big difference with how or why someone is involved in a war. For example the US is definitely involved in the Russia/Ukraine war. So is Russia. There is a huge difference between the two involvements.

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Is Taiwan part of China? There is an uninformed poster who states that the Taiwanese don’t consider themselves part of China. There’s a clue in its name; Republic of China.

 

This is completely misleading. Historically Taiwan has seen itself as the true China. What most people call now China is a different China. Taiwan does not see themselves as part of *that* China. That's blatantly obvious or the whole tension between China and Taiwan wouldn't exist! You are fully aware of this so by you twising it around you show your true colors.

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

It’s only a matter time before the new world order

 

Ah yes, here we go.

[eisfeld]

4 hours ago, Schnicnac said:

Just had a good laugh at your euro-centric school knowledge with the occasional wikipedia backups you are ardently googling for, followed by post edits

 

My post edits are for correcting spelling mistakes. You can see that the timestamp of the edit is usually close to the post time. But dream up something else if it suits you.

4 hours ago, Schnicnac said:

The Ukraine-Russia border demarcation topic is a bit more nuanced than you may believe. Again it has not been solved, and no some bilateral murky agreements don't do that either 🙂 There is a good article on Chatham House about this topic you may look up.

 

Murky arguments? They signed a freaking treaty! The disput was settled until Russia started a war and annexed parts of Ukraine. It's very simple. You are muddying the waters with vague claims. If you want to reference a specific article then just link it. Don't tell people to search for something.

4 hours ago, Schnicnac said:

And yes, while most people prefer the current status quo vs anything else, the respective camps and their voter bases have their own preferences on how to go from there and this is what I recommend to look at for those who are not so firm in the miniscule details of dynamics there...

 

The voters of Taiwan are the only ones that matter when it comes to deciding what to do with Taiwan. It's none of Chinas voters nor anyone elses business.

[KhunLA]

Hell NO

 

.... Please don't join that world terrorist / corporate security organization ... IMHO

[eisfeld]

12 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

Haven't seen Russia or China shipping troops thousands of kilometers from their shores to search in vain for nuclear weapons or fighting another system, but rather engage in disputes with neighbors which is pretty more common than you may think.

 

Well I guess you just missed all that they have done and are doing in Africa and the Middle East.

12 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

Since the end of Britain's 99 year lease in 1997 China has re-exercised control over the whole of Hong Kong and two years later Macau, nothing new about it. Actually by just looking at a map you may find out they are located at the Southern tip of Guangdong, write and speak Chinese 🙂If you think about it, the Qing had been pretty generous to even give Britain such a long lease after being defeated in wars against state sponsored drug trafficking.

 

The Hong Kong people wanted to be left alone. China has used force to crack down on dissidents. China has removed freedoms from Hong Kong citizens. That they write and speak Chinese does not mean China can take control. Austrians write and speak german so should Germany take control?

[Schnicnac]

16 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

 

My post edits are for correcting spelling mistakes. You can see that the timestamp of the edit is usually close to the post time. But dream up something else if it suits you.

 

Murky arguments? They signed a freaking treaty! The disput was settled until Russia started a war and annexed parts of Ukraine. It's very simple. You are muddying the waters with vague claims. If you want to reference a specific article then just link it. Don't tell people to search for something.

 

The voters of Taiwan are the only ones that matter when it comes to deciding what to do with Taiwan. It's none of Chinas voters nor anyone elses business.

 

As much as of a treaty (albeit "only" a bilateral one) as the UN Charter both of which Iraq under Saddam and the US, UK and other allied invaders subscribed too. You see, it's easy to tell others what is good and bad and create rules to be imposed on others, but following them in the same manner can sometimes be a bit hard. 

 

Russia was never comfortable with the demarcation and linked it to many conditions, many of which involve Ukraine staying in Russia's realm of influence... and that's why it has not been solved. Again, there is fantastic literature from knowledgeable historians about this, just need to find it 🙂

 

To the point of being pedantic, but it's called Republic of China, established in 1912 and moved just over to the island to which also previous Chinese governments laid claim and hold. In the ROC people speak almost all Mandarin, some also Hokkien (which is also spoken by the people in Fujian in China's south), use (traditional) Chinese (characters) to write, celebrate Chinese festivals, culture and yes even interact with Mainland China as one of their major trading partner. Ask any of the KMT + allied parties voters there what their preference is, it may shatter your pinky world view 🙂

 

[Schnicnac]

19 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

 

Well I guess you just missed all that they have done and are doing in Africa and the Middle East.

 

The Hong Kong people wanted to be left alone. China has used force to crack down on dissidents. China has removed freedoms from Hong Kong citizens. That they write and speak Chinese does not mean China can take control. Austrians write and speak german so should Germany take control?

 

No didn't miss it at all, it's just different from a full fledged army with carriers. Just having mercenaries here and there, not much different from other state sponsored clandestine actors in the Middle East, Central Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe, instigating all kinds of fancy color revolutions 🙂

 

In HK there were obviously some actors calling for separation, I guess in most countries you would sit in jail for this...even in...mmh...say....Spain 🙂

 

Germany and Austria are distinct countries...it's not like one was taken from each other after waging war on them because they didn't tolerate state sponsored drug trafficking:) 

 

[eisfeld]

14 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

As much as of a treaty (albeit "only" a bilateral one) as the UN Charter both of which Iraq under Saddam and the US, UK and other allied invaders subscribed too. You see, it's easy to tell others what is good and bad and create rules to be imposed on others, but following them in the same manner can sometimes be a bit hard. 

 

Again, they both signed a treaty that recognized the borders and Russia breached it and started a war.

16 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

Russia was never comfortable with the demarcation and linked it to many conditions, many of which involve Ukraine staying in Russia's realm of influence..

 

Ah yes "you can be independent as long as you are doing what we say". I'm sorry but to support Russia and all the suffering and destruction they are causing... it's just sad.

 

18 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

To the point of being pedantic, but it's called Republic of China, established in 1912 and moved just over to the island to which also previous Chinese governments laid claim and hold. In the ROC people speak almost all Mandarin, some also Hokkien (which is also spoken by the people in Fujian in China's south), use (traditional) Chinese (characters) to write, celebrate Chinese festivals, culture and yes even interact with Mainland China as one of their major trading partner. Ask any of the KMT + allied parties voters there what their preference is, it may shatter your pinky world view 🙂

 

What do all these minute tidbits have to do with the fact that Taiwan wants to be left alone and doesn't want to be told by China what to do? China is acting like a jealous ex who can't let go.

 

9 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

No didn't miss it at all, it's just different from a full fledged army with carriers. Just having mercenaries here and there, not much different from other state sponsored clandestine actors in the Middle East, Central Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe, instigating all kinds of

fancy color revolutions 🙂

Look, you are moving goal posts all the time. You make claims which clearly are wrong like here where you claimed neither Russia nor China had troops thousands of kilometers from their shores and fighting some systems. They clearly do in Africa and Middle East. Same as you claimed Russia never signed a treaty recognizing Ukraines borders which clearly they did sign. Then you come back with some wishy-washy goal post moving nonsense and vague "search for information" non-references. It's not working.

 

13 minutes ago, Schnicnac said:

Germany and Austria are distinct countries...it's not like one was taken from each other after waging war on them because they didn't tolerate state sponsored drug trafficking:)

 

Funny. You do realize they used to be one country/empire on multiple occasions and got separated after wars yes?

[Schnicnac]

2 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

 

Again, they both signed a treaty that recognized the borders and Russia breached it and started a war.

 

Ah yes "you can be independent as long as you are doing what we say". I'm sorry but to support Russia and all the suffering and destruction they are causing... it's just sad.

 

 

What do all these minute tidbits have to do with the fact that Taiwan wants to be left alone and doesn't want to be told by China what to do? China is acting like a jealous ex who can't let go.

 

Look, you are moving goal posts all the time. You make claims which clearly are wrong like here where you claimed neither Russia nor China had troops thousands of kilometers from their shores and fighting some systems. They clearly do in Africa and Middle East. Same as you claimed Russia never signed a treaty recognizing Ukraines borders which clearly they did sign. Then you come back with some wishy-washy goal post moving nonsense and vague "search for information" non-references. It's not working.

 

 

Funny. You do realize they used to be one country/empire on multiple occasions and got separated after wars yes?

 

Again, a treaty with linked conditions. You don't follow the conditions, you see repercussions because the other party just pays attention to these. Same as Trump scolded the lousy free rider members of NATO that didn't pay their fair share like famously Germany:)

 

It stands that none has seen Chinese troops venturing to places far offshore to invade them. Sending a full set of troops, tanks and aircrafts vs a bunch of mercenaries in Africa is a whole different game.

 

What existed in recent hundreds years of history is what is called Germany today was a handful of states, some small, some large, the Austrians had an empire together later on with Hungary... 

 

Of course the further you go back the more you can have your one country/ empire, but same of course then would be valid for China and its hundreds and hundreds of years claims dating back when it comes to maritime and land claims.

 

In any case Mr. Ice Field, at least one should applaud you for your sense of commitment trying hard to have the last word and with that feel that you are somehow right. Your knowledge of dynamics here in this part of the world lacks the cultural and linguistic insights necessary to tap a layer deeper beyond what has been translated and processed for you already.

 

Cheers! 🍾 🙂

 

[Gweiloman]

Coming back on topic, I doubt any ASEAN country with the possible exception of PH would want NATO here. 
 

PH is probably the most corrupt country in SEA. The current president is the son of the second most politician the world has ever seen. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree and undoubtedly, the US has all sorts of unsavoury information on him.

 

Japan might want NATO to protect it from China. China will never invade but Japan will always fear that China might take revenge for all the unspeakable evils that Japan has committed against China over the past few centuries. This is a country that will never feel peace until they acknowledge and apologise for their crimes against humanity.

 

Korea might want NATO as protection against that unstable man to their North. I can understand that but if one believes in miracles, then a reunification will bring peace to the peninsula.

 

Australia is just being dense. Due to its geographical location, it is pretty much un-invadable (if there’s such a word). All that Aussie Aussie Aussie oi oi oi and Vegemite has irreversibly reduced their collective IQ 9just joking).

 

As for the US, of course they want it. Conflict and instability is what the country thrives on and for the real masters, the MIC, this is just good business.

[Gweiloman]

3 hours ago, Schnicnac said:

 

Haven't seen Russia or China shipping troops thousands of kilometers from their shores to search in vain for nuclear weapons or fighting another system, but rather engage in disputes with neighbors which is pretty more common than you may think.

 

Since the end of Britain's 99 year lease in 1997 China has re-exercised control over the whole of Hong Kong and two years later Macau, nothing new about it. Actually by just looking at a map you may find out they are located at the Southern tip of Guangdong, write and speak Chinese 🙂If you think about it, the Qing had been pretty generous to even give Britain such a long lease after being defeated in wars against state sponsored drug trafficking.

 

And last but not least, even the Republic of China on Taiwan (yes that's the formal name) happens to have maritime disputes in the South China Sea overlapping for example with those of the Philippines as it conflicts with their not 9 but 11 dash line. So what are we going to do about it? 🙂

+1.

Conflicts in the South China Sea is a regional matter. Pretty much all affected countries have territorial disputes. China, PH, Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam. But of course it suits the western narrative that it’s only China that is the aggressor. I remember a time when France, UK, Ireland and a few other countries were also having disputes with regards to the fishing waters. These disputes are best solved with diplomacy, not military conflict as espoused by the greatest war monger of them all.

[Bernietravelling]

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It's impossible to know that.

yeah … but one could make an educated guess

(eg. by taking the length of Russian borders into account, by comparing the Russian progress in Ukraine by the depth, they would have to cover on NATO territory, … )

 

And even those, who nevertheless still forecast a Russian attack,

cannot possibly know that.

[daveAustin]

Shove it! 

 

#1 Aside from China's overtures at general expansion, who's likely to attack Thailand to warrant others coming to the rescue?

#2 What are the odds of one off these others getting attacked and Thailand having to send it's troops? 

#3 It would seriously upset China.

#4 It would especially upset Pootin.

 

Those who's sons are currently serving or who are reserves should be nervous at any sort of move to that club.

[candide]

2 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

+1.

Conflicts in the South China Sea is a regional matter. Pretty much all affected countries have territorial disputes. China, PH, Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam. But of course it suits the western narrative that it’s only China that is the aggressor. I remember a time when France, UK, Ireland and a few other countries were also having disputes with regards to the fishing waters. These disputes are best solved with diplomacy, not military conflict as espoused by the greatest war monger of them all.

Disputes between France, UK, etc... have been solved by international arbitration. China is refusing to accept any international arbitration and is using fait accompli, threat, and use of force instead.

[chilli42]

On 4/11/2024 at 1:21 PM, spidermike007 said:

He says nations that share the alliance’s vision of freedom, democracy, liberty and human rights. 

 

Ha. As if Thailand were anything even closely approaching a democracy. With coups and stolen elections, as a regular occurrence. 

With all respect to you … how long has it been since America was a democracy?

[frank83628]

3 hours ago, daveAustin said:

 

 

Those who's sons are currently serving or who are reserves should be nervous at any sort of move to that club.

and yes, just how many of those politicians encouraging the Ukraine war have kids that are actually on the front line...i would hazard a guess at none!!

 

Edited April 12 by frank83628

[sherwood]

Thailand.

Forget it, the weak gutted bunch will "Abstain" every time.

Stupid suggestion IMHO.

Edited April 12 by sherwood

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, chilli42 said:

With all respect to you … how long has it been since America was a democracy?

Well with the exception of Donald Trump's juvenile election denial, typically election results are respected and it's very rare that a duly elected PM, or President has the election stolen from him, as was the case with Pita. 

[farangkinok]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:51 AM, Gweiloman said:

Munro Doctrine ring any bells?

 

Edited April 13 by farangkinok

[Huckenfell]

it would mke a change from babysitting for the general or cutting the majors grass or even pushing people off cliffs i suppose.

[DjSilver]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:54 AM, Schnicnac said:

 

Same as much of Europe, Japan and Philippines is US' puppet ... so?

Could it be that Thailand is culturally, geographically and demographically just a tad closer to China than the US? 🙂

Well, China is a dictatorship and the US is a democracy 🤣 big difference who they follow 🤣

[Schnicnac]

21 hours ago, DjSilver said:

Well, China is a dictatorship and the US is a democracy 🤣 big difference who they follow 🤣

 

Yea of course no wonder, it seems after almost 5 decades of Cold War the simplistic Rambo movie style "us good them bad" thinking is rapidly taking hold in many brains again, where each sides almost religiously glorifies their own system. And the sheep just follow. 

 

Yet, one might be wondering sometimes about some self-entitling tendency to mentally climaxing each time when the holy word democracy comes up, yet seem to deviate more and more from the nice theoretical concept. A more honest look helps, when looking close enough what some of those self-titled democracies offer, then one will see the

suffering from an extreme bipartisan political climate or increasingly narrow corridors of tolerated opinions, a general decline in wealth of the non-elite and a more and more impoverished lower and middle class, drug addiction in the open, ailing or non-existent public infrastructure, ongoing immigration crises, woke'ism... but, hey, at least one can vote for one of the two or maybe more of the "same action different name" parties and everything will definitely change for the better...and yea we hear you people... promised! 🙂

 

[MicroB]

On 4/11/2024 at 2:15 PM, El Matador said:

Well with Trump as potential de facto leader of this mega-alliance I don't see how things could go wrong...

 

Trump has said he wants to take the US out of NATO. He actually can't, but he can stop cooperation. Article 5 isn't mandatory.

p-ed

MOD briefings are baking in a Trump win as worse case. I think that is unlikely, but we have to assume that the US over the next few years will be ineffectual as a friend because of political paralysis brought about by the pro-Russian faction of the GOP.

 

As for this article; SCMP, which propagandises for Chinese soft power, picked up a Business Insider article, which is borderline clickbait, which picked up a Bloomberg Op-Ed writted by a retired SACEUR who last served over 10 years ago. These days he's paid to write about stuff.

 

There is already a high degree of formalised cooperation between Japan and N ATO, through MOUs. There is no need for formal treaties, and it would be of no surprise that NATO is looking for global partners.

 

Incidently, NATO members don't necessarily bring military capabilities. The Baltic States have no significant military. But they offer strategic capabiltiies.

 

If NATO is expanded, then  Article 6 might need to be addressed. Most people are generally aware of Article 5, Article 4 less so. Article 6 defined NATO's area of operations, where Article 5 can be invoked, based on latitude. It was written in to make sure NATO wasn't fighting Britain and France's post-colonial wars.It has been suggested that changes to Article 6 can facilitate Georgia and Ukraine's membership (both have border disputes, but Article 6 can be rewritten to exclude the areas defined by the border disputes). Hence, Article 5 was not invoked in 1982 when Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands. Technically, a strike on Pearl harbour is not an Article 5 moment.

[DjSilver]

On 4/14/2024 at 9:20 AM, Schnicnac said:

 

Yea of course no wonder, it seems after almost 5 decades of Cold War the simplistic Rambo movie style "us good them bad" thinking is rapidly taking hold in many brains again, where each sides almost religiously glorifies their own system. And the sheep just follow. 

 

Yet, one might be wondering sometimes about some self-entitling tendency to mentally climaxing each time when the holy word democracy comes up, yet seem to deviate more and more from the nice theoretical concept. A more honest look helps, when looking close enough what some of those self-titled democracies offer, then one will see the

suffering from an extreme bipartisan political climate or increasingly narrow corridors of tolerated opinions, a general decline in wealth of the non-elite and a more and more impoverished lower and middle class, drug addiction in the open, ailing or non-existent public infrastructure, ongoing immigration crises, woke'ism... but, hey, at least one can vote for one of the two or maybe more of the "same action different name" parties and everything will definitely change for the better...and yea we hear you people... promised! 🙂

 

 

I can tell that you have never been to New York City, the greatest city in the world 🤣