Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The PI may not be the best example since the PI economy is reliant on remitted funds from overseas workers.

But since their biggest export (when I used to be there) is manpower - due to English speaking and training as nurses and other skills needed by workers.  Just saying, as they may have decided that trying to figure out all the other tax programs that the retirees may have had in their own countries was not economically positive to go after.  And, who knows what will happen with the new govt and current tax program and possible next one.  Best of luck

[4MyEgo]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:53 PM, JohnnyBD said:

I was thinking about several ways one can avoid paying PIT in Thailand, regardless of the type of visa you have. I will certainly use some of the options below. If anyone can think of any other options, please share them. Thanks...

1. Stay less than 180 days in-country (non-tax resident), remit as much money as you want tax free for future year's spending when you are a tax resident.

2. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit less than the TEDA threshold, so as not to owe any taxes, can use previously remitted monies if needed.

3. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit only pre-2024 monies

4. Stay 180 days (tax resident), remit only tax-exempt monies as per DTA such as; your US Social Security, gov't pensions, etc.

5. Stay 180 days (tax resident), get a LTR visa if one can qualify

 

1. When exiting the country, bring back cash, up to $20k USD allowed undeclared, but check to be 100% certain.

 

2. I believe when remitting savings, there is no tax payable, however they might want a slice of any interest earned, however, your country might have taxed you already as a non-resident.

 

Of course on 2. the onus would be on you to prove it's savings, and if you have a comingled account, that would be very risky.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by 4MyEgo

[Presnock]

On 8/17/2024 at 5:52 PM, oldcpu said:

 

I googled, and could find no reference to alien (foreigner) ID # being ok as a Thai tax ID without first having Revenue department 'making it so'.  BUT I tend to agree that does not mean the Pink-ID card # can not be used by some method as a Thai Tax ID.

 

I also (when googling) did NOT find an 'official' Thai government page on the "Pink ID" for foreigners.  There are lots of 'purported' legal advisor pages (on the Pink-ID), but no government page that I could find.

 

EDIT: One government page I did find does refer to the Pink-ID as an identity card:

https://www.dopa.go.th/public_service/service_guide24/view472

 

That is interesting given:

 

The Pink-ID card itself is very clear on the back, where in item-1 on the back it states (my English translation) "This card is not an identification card", which reads to be contradictory as on the front page on the card at the very stop it translates to "Identification card for people without the nationality"  .... and in a lower line:  "Foreigners entering the country".  

 

In my case, to get the card I had to be registered in a 'house document'.  In my case this meant registered in a 'Yellow book' for the condominium unit that I own.  I have read that foreigners who already have a Thai tax ID can apply for a 'Pink-ID' but I do not know that is accurate.

 

Still given the card itself on one hand says (on the front) its an ID card, and then on the back says "This card is not an identification card", ... my view is this is not exactly a consistent description on the card.  

 

So when it comes to taxes, and tax-IDs, it would be nice to have a consistent description. Is this? or is this not? an ID card?

 

Still - as noted already, I know (from my experience) if one having never (yet) submitted a Thai tax return, if one then tries to  tries to use their Thai Pink-ID # in an online Thai taxation submission, it will not work. The Pink-ID # is not accepted (online) by the Revenue Department for an online tax return.

 

And I also know (from my wife on the phone with a local Thai RD official) that a Pink-ID # has to be 'activated' to be used as a Thai tax ID # (but my wife was talking to him, so possibly he was referring to a online tax submission and that detail was lost by my wife).

 

I suspect that if one submitted a Thai Tax return for a specific Thai tax year (by postal mail ?? hand carrying it to the local Thai tax office ? ), using the Pink-ID number in the place of the Thai tax ID, that the tax submission would not be immediately rejected.  I suspect instead if at the local RD office, one would instead be asked to sit down for a couple of hours at the local revenue department while the Thai officials scratched their head (and phoned Bangkok) on how to process the tax return?? But that's my speculation.

 

Anyway - I have satisfied myself that I can, for my foreign requirements, (where I have found it necessary to provide a Thai tax ID to financial institutions in Canada) that providing my Pink-ID # is acceptable to foreign institutions as a Thai Tax ID (for it could very well be such - and I further note that I have applied for the Thai tax ID where a copy of my Pink-ID was one of the documents I submitted in the application).

 

And I will continue to watch to see how this 'in-flux' taxation situation for resident foreigners pays out.

1.  It may just go away (and can be ignored by all) ? 

2.  It may (like I hope) not be something those on an LTR visa need watch and can be ignored (by LTR visa holders). 

3.  It may require tax returns from some foreigner residents (hopefully not given DTAs)

4.  ...  and it may be a nightmare for some with "Thai tax clearance certificates" making a comeback for annual permission to stay in Thailand renewals and for departures (of those on long stay visas) from Thailand (HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY UNLIKELY in my opinion that there will be a return to 'tax clearance certificates).

 

I note that the present mood in Thailand is to attract foreigners to the country (with the new visa laws) and so I tend to think the concern that foreigners who reside >180 days need to be taxed on income, could be softened or interpreted by Thailand in a way with far far less to hopefully no impact. Time will tell.

 

Possibly I am far too optimistic there.

I am ignorant in details about yellow book id and pink book id etc, but I notice from another AN user, that the Pink id card is done from the yellow  book documentation.  best of luck

[Presnock]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:03 PM, oldcpu said:

 

Its not just dynamic in the interpretation ... but also in the expected means of enforcement ... and the expected implementation to some Visas.

 

For example, look no further than the Thai LTR visa where there is disagreement as to whether it provides full tax exemption from income coming into the country.

 

Some legal advisors claim it ONLY provides exemption to LTR visa holders if the money is brought into Thailand in the SAME year it is earned. They claim income from subsequent years (after 1-Jan-2024) will be taxed if not brought into Thailand in the same year of earning.  Other legal advisors say it does not matter - its all tax exempt.  There is a CLEAR disagreement by the supposed legal experts (different legal organisations on that).

 

As to enforcement? There is no agreement on that as well.  Will this be another Thai law that a blind eye is turned?

 

The requirement to have a Thai tax clearance certificate when leaving Thailand is STILL ON the Thai books. There is ZERO enforcement.  Taxation rules could go the same way.

 

We will CLEARLY have to agree to disagree on this.

.

Well read the benefits on the BOI LTR page.  when I applied and got my LTR is says exempt from remitted foreign income

taxes and I don't see else that can be interpreted by the "experts".  All must always be aware of what they read here and on the YouTube tax experts as almost all of it is rumor mill info.  WE expats will know maybe once the new tax forms are published in "Nov/Dec" if that happens or maybe not until after Jan 2025 when anyone with assessable income is supposed to file for taxes.  If the DTA protects your income or you are exempted elsewhere then why even think about it at all.  Amazing to continue hearing some of the same stories months and months continuously.  Best of luck to all.

[stat]

7 hours ago, andre47 said:

this company is amazing  555
they ask for 12000 baht to assist in getting a TIN....
you can do it youself very easy...just take a certificate of residence from your immigration and your passport and visit the RD... after 15 minutes you will get your TIN

Is it too much to ask to read my post? I AM NOT IN THAILAND! Prices are high I agree but no way to get a TIN or tax certificate from abroad to my knowledge without the "help" of a company.

Edited August 26 by stat

[Danderman123]

15 hours ago, andre47 said:

this company is amazing  555
they ask for 12000 baht to assist in getting a TIN....
you can do it youself very easy...just take a certificate of residence from your immigration and your passport and visit the RD... after 15 minutes you will get your TIN

Has anyone here actually obtained a certificate of residence?

Edited August 26 by Danderman123

[JackGats]

On 8/24/2024 at 3:48 PM, stat said:

Tax certificate is needed for the German IRS in order to get the reduced witholding tax of 15% instead of 26.375 for German dividends. I was not aware of this while I was in TH.

 

....

 

 

You mean dividends paid by German firms on German stock? Because if it's dividends on US stocks, the W-8BEN form doesn't require any tax certificate. It only requires a Thai TIN.

 

Maybe the easiest way is to pay the full 30% tax on dividends other than US ones.

[stat]

1 hour ago, JackGats said:

You mean dividends paid by German firms on German stock? Because if it's dividends on US stocks, the W-8BEN form doesn't require any tax certificate. It only requires a Thai TIN.

 

Maybe the easiest way is to pay the full 30% tax on dividends other than US ones.

On US Stocks not even a thai Tin is needed just the signed W-8BEN to get the 15% rate. Mind you every country has its own rate so it is not 30% for non US stocks. Like I stated in my post I received german dividends i.e. dividends paid by German companies taxed by German IRS with withholding tax as a non German tax resident.

 

Everyone has to make up his mind if it is worth the hassle (depending on the amount at stake) to get the CoR. For me it definetly is worth the hassle.

Edited August 26 by stat

[Phulublub]

23 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

1. When exiting the country, bring back cash, up to $20k USD allowed undeclared, but check to be 100% certain.

 

2. I believe when remitting savings, there is no tax payable, however they might want a slice of any interest earned, however, your country might have taxed you already as a non-resident.

 

Of course on 2. the onus would be on you to prove it's savings, and if you have a comingled account, that would be very risky.

 

 

 

 

1.  You can legally bring cash into the country  but you are still liable for tax on this money in exactly the same was as any and all other remitted funds.  Not declaring it is tax evasion and is illegal.  You may very well not be caught, but that does not remove the illegality, and , if you are...

 

2.  Incorrect.  If the savings were held on 31 Dec 23, then they are not assessable.  If audited you would have to show this.  I have statements dated 31 Dec 23 for this exact reason.

 

No matter the route or method of bringing in money to Thailand, the status of assessable or not is exactly the same and the Thai tax system is one of self- declaration. The onus is on you to report accurately.  If you choose not to and are audited you will have problems.  Your choice on course of action...

 

PH

 

[EVENKEEL]

5 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

1.  You can legally bring cash into the country  but you are still liable for tax on this money in exactly the same was as any and all other remitted funds.  Not declaring it is tax evasion and is illegal.  You may very well not be caught, but that does not remove the illegality, and , if you are...

 

2.  Incorrect.  If the savings were held on 31 Dec 23, then they are not assessable.  If audited you would have to show this.  I have statements dated 31 Dec 23 for this exact reason.

 

No matter the route or method of bringing in money to Thailand, the status of assessable or not is exactly the same and the Thai tax system is one of self- declaration. The onus is on you to report accurately.  If you choose not to and are audited you will have problems.  Your choice on course of action...

 

PH

 

So you truly believe out of the 10's of million foreigners who exchange money they will identify anyone as being a tax resident? That's an extremely far fetch.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So you truly believe out of the 10's of million foreigners who exchange money they will identify anyone as being a tax resident? That's an extremely far fetch.

I can easily imagine a scenario where the same passport, name or ID number appears repeatedly over time and somebody decides to take a closer look. That's the entire approach to money laundering under the aggregated 10k rule in the US, same person makes lots of transactions under the reporting threshold.

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

So you truly believe out of the 10's of million foreigners who exchange money they will identify anyone as being a tax resident? That's an extremely far fetch.

Not what I said. 

 

If you are a tax resident and get audited, it is up to you to show how/where/what monies you have reported have come from.  If you have reported a suspiciously low figure and cannot prove non-assessable income, you will be in trouble.

 

PH

[Robin]

How are "savings" defined?

I believe that I can transfer 'savings' from UK to Thailand, but what are savings?

If I do not spend all my income immediately, what remains could be called 'savings,' but will the Thai RD see it that way?

My real concern apart from the semantics, is that I have property in UK that I intend to sell to fund my retirement.  Property was bought on a mortgage in the normal way, paid for out of monthly income. So is the property now 'savings.' And can the proceeds' of the sale be brought to Thailand without me having to pay any tax?

Also, property has increased in value since original purchase;  Is the increase savings or income?  HMRC in UK have a various allowances fro property value increased, which might confuse Thai RD?

 

[JackGats]

22 hours ago, stat said:

Is it too much to ask to read my post? I AM NOT IN THAILAND! Prices are high I agree but no way to get a TIN or tax certificate from abroad to my knowledge without the "help" of a company.

This Thai tax certificate requires you to be in TH for over 180 days during the tax year with respect to which the tax certificate gets issued. As I understand is issued for a particular year, typically "last year" or the years before that. That would mean getting a tax certificate each year for the preceding year. It is a hassle.

[motdaeng]

38 minutes ago, Robin said:

How are "savings" defined?

I believe that I can transfer 'savings' from UK to Thailand, but what are savings?

If I do not spend all my income immediately, what remains could be called 'savings,' but will the Thai RD see it that way?

My real concern apart from the semantics, is that I have property in UK that I intend to sell to fund my retirement.  Property was bought on a mortgage in the normal way, paid for out of monthly income. So is the property now 'savings.' And can the proceeds' of the sale be brought to Thailand without me having to pay any tax?

Also, property has increased in value since original purchase;  Is the increase savings or income?  HMRC in UK have a various allowances fro property value increased, which might confuse Thai RD?

 

 

not the answer to your question, but the current tax law is:  "savings before 31.12.2023" are not taxed when transferring to Thailand ...

Edited August 27 by motdaeng

[4MyEgo]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I can easily imagine a scenario where the same passport, name or ID number appears repeatedly over time and somebody decides to take a closer look. That's the entire approach to money laundering under the aggregated 10k rule in the US, same person makes lots of transactions under the reporting threshold.

 

Gold shops, over the counter exchanges, no ID required, thanks for coming, oh and a better exchange rate, but Mum's the word 🙂

 

[sometimewoodworker]

17 hours ago, Robin said:

How are "savings" defined?

I believe that I can transfer 'savings' from UK to Thailand, but what are savings?

If I do not spend all my income immediately, what remains could be called 'savings,' but will the Thai RD see it that way?

My real concern apart from the semantics, is that I have property in UK that I intend to sell to fund my retirement.  Property was bought on a mortgage in the normal way, paid for out of monthly income. So is the property now 'savings.' And can the proceeds' of the sale be brought to Thailand without me having to pay any tax?

Also, property has increased in value since original purchase;  Is the increase savings or income?  HMRC in UK have a various allowances fro property value increased, which might confuse Thai RD?

 

You should really read this thread and all the others, as your questions are all discussed in them.

your property will attract CGT in the U.K. and CG are assessable in Thailand 

Edited August 27 by sometimewoodworker

[chiang mai]

17 hours ago, Robin said:

How are "savings" defined?

I believe that I can transfer 'savings' from UK to Thailand, but what are savings?

If I do not spend all my income immediately, what remains could be called 'savings,' but will the Thai RD see it that way?

My real concern apart from the semantics, is that I have property in UK that I intend to sell to fund my retirement.  Property was bought on a mortgage in the normal way, paid for out of monthly income. So is the property now 'savings.' And can the proceeds' of the sale be brought to Thailand without me having to pay any tax?

Also, property has increased in value since original purchase;  Is the increase savings or income?  HMRC in UK have a various allowances fro property value increased, which might confuse Thai RD?

 

As an earlier poster has said, anything earned or saved prior to 31/12/2023 is free of Thai tax so that largely covers your savings question.

 

The answer to the house question is more complicated. 

 

Firstly, I assume your house was your primary residence, if so, there is no capital gains (CG) involved. If however you have rented the house out whilst you've been overseas and the house was not your primary residence, you would have to file UK CG. If a CG was involved and those funds were imported to Thailand, the gain would be subject to Thai Personal Income Tax rates (PIT). It is unclear at this stage how the Thai Revenue (TRD) will view partial remittances of CG so this is an unknown.

 

If your house was not subject to CG, you are left with principle and profit, none of which was taxable in the UK and which the UK would regard as savings.  Once again, it is not clear how the TRD will view those funds, as savings or as profit and capital that are commingled.

 

There are two options going forward. The first is to wait and see what information emerges from the TRD regarding the two unknows described above but this may take time. The speedier and more certain option is to remit the proceeds of your UK house sale, to Thailand, in a year when you are not tax resident here, that would mean the funds are not assessable. Becoming non-resident for Thai tax purposes for a year would involves staying here for no more than 179 days in the calendar year the funds were remitted and then travelling or living elsewhere for the remaining approximately six months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

27 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You should really read this thread and all the others, as your questions are all discussed in them.

your property will attract CGT in the U.K. and CG are assessable in Thailand 

This is incorrect, please read my earlier post.

[redwood1]

21 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Not what I said. 

 

If you are a tax resident and get audited, it is up to you to show how/where/what monies you have reported have come from.  If you have reported a suspiciously low figure and cannot prove non-assessable income, you will be in trouble.

 

PH

 

Well Sir I guess 95% of all Thais are in big tax trouble who have not filed.... And I would just love to see all the monkey business going on with the tax filings of the small % who have filed........

 

The only Thai I have EVER heard about who had tax troubles as Tony and only because he did not pay like half a billion dollars in taxes on a stock sale..which as far as I know not a single baht of that tax has ever been paid..or will ever be paid most likely...

[chiang mai]

26 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well Sir I guess 95% of all Thais are in big tax trouble who have not filed.... And I would just love to see all the monkey business going on with the tax filings of the small % who have filed........

 

The only Thai I have EVER heard about who had tax troubles as Tony and only because he did not pay like half a billion dollars in taxes on a stock sale..which as far as I know not a single baht of that tax has ever been paid..or will ever be paid most likely...

The Bangkok Post reported that 25% of the POPULATION filed tax returns in 2023.

 

EDITED TO CORRECT, population not workforce.

Edited August 28 by chiang mai

[redwood1]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The Bangkok Post reported that 25% of the work farce (39 million) filed tax returns in 2023....pun intended.

 

Well you can look deep in this thread and Mike the guy that started this thread said a number of times the real number of Thais that paid taxes was 6%.......So if anyone would know, he would....

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The Bangkok Post reported that 25% of the work farce (39 million) filed tax returns in 2023....pun intended.

Would be interesting to know how much of the 25% only filed to get a tax refund.

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well you can look deep in this thread and Mike the guy that started this thread said a number of times the real number of Thais that paid taxes was 6%.......So if anyone would know, he would....

My guess is he wasn't up to date on this, the article is dated late May.

 

There were 11.9 million personal income tax forms filed for the income year 2023, submitted between Jan 1 and April 29, 2024, an increase of 3.34% from the same period last year.

Edit to remove link

 

 

Edited August 28 by chiang mai

[redwood1]

Just now, chiang mai said:

My guess is he wasn't up to date on this, the article is dated late May.

 

There were 11.9 million personal income tax forms filed for the income year 2023, submitted between Jan 1 and April 29, 2024, an increase of 3.34% from the same period last year.

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2799906/tax-refunds-delayed-by-surge-in-fake-submissions. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

 

 

Well your post will be deleted with a Bangkok post link......And I would not believe it anyway..

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Well your post will be deleted with a Bangkok post link......And I would not believe it anyway..

I thought it was ok to quote and link BP now that Thaiger is the owner?

[Lorry]

7 hours ago, chiang mai said:

As an earlier poster has said, anything earned or saved prior to 31/12/2023 is free of Thai tax so that largely covers your savings question.

 

The answer to the house question is more complicated. 

 

Firstly, I assume your house was your primary residence, if so, there is no capital gains (CG) involved. If however you have rented the house out whilst you've been overseas and the house was not your primary residence, you would have to file UK CG. If a CG was involved and those funds were imported to Thailand, the gain would be subject to Thai Personal Income Tax rates (PIT). It is unclear at this stage how the Thai Revenue (TRD) will view partial remittances of CG so this is an unknown.

 

If your house was not subject to CG, you are left with principle and profit, none of which was taxable in the UK and which the UK would regard as savings.  Once again, it is not clear how the TRD will view those funds, as savings or as profit and capital that are commingled.

 

There are two options going forward. The first is to wait and see what information emerges from the TRD regarding the two unknows described above but this may take time. The speedier and more certain option is to remit the proceeds of your UK house sale, to Thailand, in a year when you are not tax resident here, that would mean the funds are not assessable. Becoming non-resident for Thai tax purposes for a year would involves staying here for no more than 179 days in the calendar year the funds were remitted and then travelling or living elsewhere for the remaining approximately six months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would try also not to be tax resident in the year I sell the house. 

This is a precaution, not necessary according to the letter of the law.

It stems from the unclear formulation in TRD's Q&A. They stress several times that income from a year you were not tax resident can be remitted tax free.

The answer for the opposite question (income from a year I was tax resident,  remitted in a year I am not tax resident) is conspicuously absent.

 

Discussed in extenso in the tax threads - we just don't know. 

[Robin]

Thanks for the answers.  I will just have to wait and see what happens.  I will try for the non tax resident method when I have sold the house in UK, or hope that the situation has been clarified.

I think that savings is a concept that Thais do not understand; 'if you have money, spend it'   is more Thai.

To my simple mind, "Savings" could be defined as income not spent, but kept in an accessible place.  My dictionary gives "money put aside for future use"

In UK the money is kept in a "Savings account"   as it might be in Thailand.   Good enough for he RD?

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Robin said:

Thanks for the answers.  I will just have to wait and see what happens.  I will try for the non tax resident method when I have sold the house in UK, or hope that the situation has been clarified.

I think that savings is a concept that Thais do not understand; 'if you have money, spend it'   is more Thai.

To my simple mind, "Savings" could be defined as income not spent, but kept in an accessible place.  My dictionary gives "money put aside for future use"

In UK the money is kept in a "Savings account"   as it might be in Thailand.   Good enough for he RD?

Not for remitted funds from overseas it isn't. 

 

You are correct that the Western definition of savings is income after tax, less expense, but from what we understand/have guessed presently of the TRD mindest, those funds are more likely to represent income. Some people will try and say that there's no such thing as savings which I do not believe for one moment. Those people always want to trace the origin of the funds, even if it means going back many years. That is nonsense, I think, it's more likely that savings will be time boxed and anything more than say 5 years old, is savings, regardless of its origins. The problem then becomes the commingling of savings with other income, which makes it all messy.

 

Fortunately the TRD has given us Por163 which means anything earned before 31 December 2023 is tax free so the historic savings issue is moot, for the moment.

[stat]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:26 AM, JackGats said:

This Thai tax certificate requires you to be in TH for over 180 days during the tax year with respect to which the tax certificate gets issued. As I understand is issued for a particular year, typically "last year" or the years before that. That would mean getting a tax certificate each year for the preceding year. It is a hassle.

Nothing to do with the fact that you did not read the post and your "proposal" to just go to RD is not feasibe as I am not in Thailand. I just need the tax certificate for 2022. Tax certificates are issued per year.

Edited August 28 by stat