[OT] heavily discounting of EV in Australia [OT]

[Henryford]

Soon you won't be able to give the milk floats away.

[Bandersnatch]

11 hours ago, connda said:

And when the solar panels down work anymore.  Throw them into a landfill and allow the toxicity to leach into the groundwater.  Great idea. 

 

Sometimes posting here feels like being a Kindergarten teacher.

 

”Ok Children, today’s word is TOXIC.

 

We are going to try to understand what it means and look at some things that are Toxic and some things that are not Toxic.

 

It’s important to understand what a word means when we use it as otherwise people will think we didn’t study hard at school”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just for good measure:

 

 

 

Your free education ends here

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

It really doesn't matter. If your battery SoH is high. If you left your car in storage and like a fool kept it charged to 100% for six months the battery would be damaged slightly and the SoH would be not as good.  They Definately can be damaged but they can't be damaged and that damage not reflected in the SoH.  Much better than opening the hood of an ice car and trying to verify if the owner took care of it.  Not possible to verify with 100% accuracy the battery but darn close.

If you open the hood of a car and maybe look under it then an expert can see lots of things.

With the battery you see almost nothing. And what you see is from a chip which could possibly be hacked.

[atpeace]

  Even 5 years ago I had my doubts but how any rational mind today could come the conclusion that fossil fuels are the answer is odd.  I'm selfish and am not overly concerned about the environment. Sad but true I think.

 

  I just want to get from point A to B in a comfortable fashion and spend less money doing so.  Also I could spend 150K for a solar/battery setup and have AC running all day, pond pumps, ice bath constantly chilled, fans running all over the house and not have to pay a dime to PEA most months.  Too lazy to start the project at the moment but someday soon.

[JBChiangRai]

13 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If you open the hood of a car and maybe look under it then an expert can see lots of things.

With the battery you see almost nothing. And what you see is from a chip which could possibly be hacked.

 

What you are saying is mostly nonsense.

 

Looking under the bonnet in an ICE car will not tell you if it's going to throw a piston, or the big ends are about to fail, or the transmission is about to go.  All these things can fail spontaneously/

 

Chip hacking on the BMS is highly unlikely, impossible currently, and unlike a speedo wound back, you would know the moment it fell drastically short of the quoted range.

 

I would like to see Battery SoH recorded on all the service receipts though, in the same way as recorded mileage.

[atpeace]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If you open the hood of a car and maybe look under it then an expert can see lots of things.

With the battery you see almost nothing. And what you see is from a chip which could possibly be hacked.

True but what are the odds that this wouldn't be detected if the battery was tested?  Nothing is guaranteed in life other than being wrong and death as well as few other things but you get the point... IMO, you are much more likely to verify the health of an EV battery than the engine of an ICE.  I think this even applies to experienced ICE mechanics.   Just too many variables that can't be determined with ICE.  That being said my ICE vehicles have served me very well!  I haven't had a major repair in decades.

[GroveHillWanderer]

14 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Great, then I am sure they will give at least 15 years warranty on their batteries, correct? 

Why would they? The manufacturers of other products don't provide a warranty that covers the maximum known or expected lifespan of their products, so why would you expect EV manufacturers to do so?

 

For example, we have a vacuum cleaner that is still working, 5 years after we bought it. However it only came with a one year warranty.

 

Its manufacturers are probably aware (from product testing and consumer reports) that their product can last 5 years or more, but that doesn't mean they're going to provide a 5 year warranty. Nor would I really expect them to do so.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

True but what are the odds that this wouldn't be detected if the battery was tested?  Nothing is guaranteed in life other than being wrong and death as well as few other things but you get the point... IMO, you are much more likely to verify the health of an EV battery than the engine of an ICE.  I think this even applies to experienced ICE mechanics.   Just too many variables that can't be determined with ICE.  That being said my ICE vehicles have served me very well!  I haven't had a major repair in decades.

Let's say it like this: I have some experience with repairing bikes and cars, I learned something with electronics, and the last 30 years I work with computers.

Many mechanical parts can be tested, i.e. compression testing, looking into each cylinder (sparkplug hole), etc. A couple of hours will reveal a huge percentage of possible problems. And if the engine is overall in good condition, then it is very unlikely that all looks good but the parts which you don't see will suddenly fail.

Electrics will slowly deteriorate. And parts can and do fail suddenly. But often electronic devices can be repaired by experets.

And then there are computers. They are often so complex that it is difficult to analyze what is wrong. And with software, look at all the bug and hacks.

And then there are EVs and big, large sealed batteries. The batteries have some mechanical parts, some electrical parts, and a computer. And they are all sealed in one package which can't be opened and the individual components in the battery can't be repaired. One little part fails, and maybe the battery is dead. And about the tests: Do you remember how VW handled tests? That's what software is good for...

 

Obviously that all doesn't mean batteries have to fail early. But it is pretty sure they will fail. The question is when. And then they have to be replaced or the whole vehicle has only scrap value. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Let's say it like this: I have some experience with repairing bikes and cars, I learned something with electronics, and the last 30 years I work with computers.

Many mechanical parts can be tested, i.e. compression testing, looking into each cylinder (sparkplug hole), etc. A couple of hours will reveal a huge percentage of possible problems. And if the engine is overall in good condition, then it is very unlikely that all looks good but the parts which you don't see will suddenly fail.

Electrics will slowly deteriorate. And parts can and do fail suddenly. But often electronic devices can be repaired by experets.

And then there are computers. They are often so complex that it is difficult to analyze what is wrong. And with software, look at all the bug and hacks.

And then there are EVs and big, large sealed batteries. The batteries have some mechanical parts, some electrical parts, and a computer. And they are all sealed in one package which can't be opened and the individual components in the battery can't be repaired. One little part fails, and maybe the battery is dead. And about the tests: Do you remember how VW handled tests? That's what software is good for...

 

Obviously that all doesn't mean batteries have to fail early. But it is pretty sure they will fail. The question is when. And then they have to be replaced or the whole vehicle has only scrap value. 

 

 

... from all your posts, you haven't a clue about anything you're talking about.

[OneMoreFarang]

Just now, KhunLA said:

... from all your posts, you haven't a clue about anything you're talking about.

Thanks for your insider knowledge. Good that we have experts like you in this forum who know everything.

[vinny41]

16 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The manufacturers do. And not just expect - it's what they're finding is actually the case.

 

Here's just one example. In the words of Nissan’s UK Marketing Director Nic Thomas, in an interview with Forbes Magazine:

 

"Almost all of the EV batteries we’ve made are still in cars.

 

It’s the complete opposite of what people feared when we first launched EVs—that the batteries would only last a short time. Many EV batteries may outlast their vehicles, then enjoy a second life in a stationary storage application before finally being recycled.

 

At the end of the vehicle’s life—15 or 20 years down the road—you take the battery out of the car, and it’s still healthy, with perhaps 60 or 70% of usable charge.”

 

Nissan exec: “Almost all of the EV batteries we’ve made are still in cars”

 

Other industry analysts have also come to similar conclusions.

 

"According to current industry expectations, EV batteries are projected to last between 100,000 and 200,000 miles, or about 15 to 20 years.

 

This is quite a bit more than the average life expectancy of a car, which is only 12 years. In other words, EV batteries are predicted to outlast the vehicle they’re in."

 

How long do batteries last in electric cars?

I wonder if the Nissan exec was aware that Nissan had a program to offer Nissan in 2018  has begun offering rebuilt battery packs for the older Leafs,

https://insideevs.com/news/337360/nissan-introduces-2850-refabricated-batteries-for-older-leaf/

Or that since 2012 Nissan has been running a buyback scheme for Nissan Leaf owners

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079475_nissan-buys-back-leaf-electric-cars-under-arizona-lemon-law

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

44 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Let's say it like this: I have some experience with repairing bikes and cars, I learned something with electronics, and the last 30 years I work with computers.

Many mechanical parts can be tested, i.e. compression testing, looking into each cylinder (sparkplug hole), etc. A couple of hours will reveal a huge percentage of possible problems. And if the engine is overall in good condition, then it is very unlikely that all looks good but the parts which you don't see will suddenly fail.

Electrics will slowly deteriorate. And parts can and do fail suddenly. But often electronic devices can be repaired by experets.

And then there are computers. They are often so complex that it is difficult to analyze what is wrong. And with software, look at all the bug and hacks.

And then there are EVs and big, large sealed batteries. The batteries have some mechanical parts, some electrical parts, and a computer. And they are all sealed in one package which can't be opened and the individual components in the battery can't be repaired. One little part fails, and maybe the battery is dead. And about the tests: Do you remember how VW handled tests? That's what software is good for...

 

Obviously that all doesn't mean batteries have to fail early. But it is pretty sure they will fail. The question is when. And then they have to be replaced or the whole vehicle has only scrap value. 

 

 

The cost of a new engine can write off an ICE car.

 

The cost of a new battery can write off an EV.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the ages at which these statements are true were pretty close on either type of car.

 

The difference with batteries, is there will be a network of small organizations who are willing to open your battery up and fix it, this is already happening in America, for sure it will happen everywhere else.

[vinny41]

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The cost of a new engine can write off an ICE car.

 

The cost of a new battery can write off an EV.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the ages at which these statements are true were pretty close on either type of car.

 

The difference with batteries, is there will be a network of small organizations who are willing to open your battery up and fix it, this is already happening in America, for sure it will happen everywhere else.

Unlikely that a replacement engine on an ICE vehicle aged new to 4 years old would warrant a write off 

engines in most ICE vehicles always in the majority of cases represent 30% or less of the total vehicle price new

When it comes to EV the battery represents a higher % of the total vehicle price new

so as we have seen in the news and in EV  Facebook group ev less than a year old can be written off if new battery is required

JD power advises engine replacement costs between $4,000 for standard cars up to $10,000 for for a high-performance engine

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-car-engine

 

[OneMoreFarang]

50 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The cost of a new engine can write off an ICE car.

 

The beauty of the ICE engines is that they consist of many many part which can often be replaced individually.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

55 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Unlikely that a replacement engine on an ICE vehicle aged new to 4 years old would warrant a write off 

engines in most ICE vehicles always in the majority of cases represent 30% or less of the total vehicle price new

When it comes to EV the battery represents a higher % of the total vehicle price new

so as we have seen in the news and in EV  Facebook group ev less than a year old can be written off if new battery is required

JD power advises engine replacement costs between $4,000 for standard cars up to $10,000 for for a high-performance engine

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-car-engine

 

 

$10,000 is probably the deposit needed to order a high-performance engine, the much more than that to pay on delivery.

 

33 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

The beauty of the ICE engines is that they consist of many many part which can often be replaced individually.

 

 

 

OMG! all those parts waiting to fail!  and 2,000 of them move therefore wear out or break.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

 

JD power advises engine replacement costs between $4,000 for standard cars up to $10,000 for for a high-performance engine

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-car-engine

 

 

This pays for one helluva battery

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Unlikely that a replacement engine on an ICE vehicle aged new to 4 years old would warrant a write off 

engines in most ICE vehicles always in the majority of cases represent 30% or less of the total vehicle price new

When it comes to EV the battery represents a higher % of the total vehicle price new

so as we have seen in the news and in EV  Facebook group ev less than a year old can be written off if new battery is required

JD power advises engine replacement costs between $4,000 for standard cars up to $10,000 for for a high-performance engine

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-car-engine

 

 

You adjusted your quote from that article to suit you, it did not say as you quoted at all, it said "Usually, you can spend as much as $4,000 for a four-cylinder to upwards of $10,000 for a high-performance engine"

[vinny41]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

This pays for one helluva battery

 

Drive Motor Battery Pack
EQS 580 SUV
HIGH VOLTAGE.
580.
EQS 450 SUV
HIGH VOLTAGE.
450 4M.
7893402829|
$73,770.48

https://www.carid.com/2023-mercedes-eqs-charging-starting/mercedes-benz-oe-electrical-battery-5602187167.html

Almost B3 million baht just for a replacement battery

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Drive Motor Battery Pack
EQS 580 SUV
HIGH VOLTAGE.
580.
EQS 450 SUV
HIGH VOLTAGE.
450 4M.
7893402829|
$73,770.48

https://www.carid.com/2023-mercedes-eqs-charging-starting/mercedes-benz-oe-electrical-battery-5602187167.html

Almost B3 million baht just for a replacement battery

 

31 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

This pays for one helluva battery

 

 

Battery is cheaper than an engine!

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You adjusted your quote from that article to suit you, it did not say as you quoted at all, it said "Usually, you can spend as much as $4,000 for a four-cylinder to upwards of $10,000 for a high-performance engine"

And I failed to mention 

However, if your goal is to save money, you could pick a remanufactured or salvaged engine. The first ones undergo careful reconstruction and come very close to the newly-built ones. So close that they may come with warranties. On the other hand, salvaged engines are the cheapest option and pose a significant risk of becoming faulty. 

You have flexibility in terms of which one to pick. Technically, any engine can be installed, but some are a better fit than others. We would suggest you consult with a mechanic before making any decisions. 

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-a-car-engine

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Battery is cheaper than an engine!

These are both high performance cars that I suspect the numbers of sales are less than a BYD seal for example

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

OMG! all those parts waiting to fail!  and 2,000 of them move therefore wear out or break.

And almost all of them can be and are replaced individually. 

[josephbloggs]

9 hours ago, connda said:

What could possible go wrong with floating solar farms  🤔 Oh right - weather, wind, and then waves.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1777941616562733520

 

 

That was built in the ocean which is pretty stupid.

Thailand is building them on reservoirs. Pretty sure big waves aren't a problem there. Right?

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

That was built in the ocean which is pretty stupid.

Thailand is building them on reservoirs. Pretty sure big waves aren't a problem there. Right?

link states it was built at a dam

A recent storm rendered the world's largest floating solar plant at Omkareshwar Dam in India inoperative shortly after its launch, sustaining significant damage. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/storm-ravages-world-s-largest-floating-solar-plant/ss-BB1nsTq3?ocid=weather-verthp-feeds

 

[stoner]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:55 PM, JBChiangRai said:

10 year old cars depreciate to a fraction of their new cost.

 

I think with EV cars it will not just be down to condition, it will be down to the SoH (State of Health) of the battery pack, buyers will want to know that figure, and the price will be set accordingly.

 

i think a lot of people shy away from used EV cars. would you buy a used one vs a new one ? 

[JBChiangRai]

26 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

i think a lot of people shy away from used EV cars. would you buy a used one vs a new one ? 

 

Yes I will, I have one in mind for 3 years hence.

[stoner]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yes I will, I have one in mind for 3 years hence.

 

i wouldn't. but then again i don't really like driving i prefer scoot. looking at an electric scooter for my next one. 

[atpeace]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And almost all of them can be and are replaced individually. 

True but many would rather have one vs a thousand. So few of the batteries are failing, there isn't an efficient means to repair or replace batteries.  I assume in the next 10 years the battery replacement or repair will be much more affordable when EVs have old batteries with over 300k kilometers on them.  Hard to build the infrastructure when there is so little demand for battery service centers.

[still kicking]

Picture shows Tesla ‘graveyard’ as unsold cars pile up in Australia | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site