Thailand Refuses To Sign Document Of The Swiss 'Peace' Summit

[frank83628]

 

3 hours ago, harryviking said:

We have either Russians with western names or a bunch of western brainwashed trolls. I guess i had to happen sooner or later. 

or people with a difference of opinion, you must be the brainwashed one to not understand that

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Oh, I certainly recognize there was opposition but … well, a prominent opponent conveniently was jailed and died in prison, if I recall correctly.

you recall, whether correctly, is dependent upon news sources

[frank83628]

7 hours ago, transam said:

I see we have a team of aggressor Putin fanboys on here today..

Supporting the invasion of a sovereign country for land grab.

The blitzkrieg of civilian dwellings, mass murder of the innocent, yet these creeps support it...............

Sad individuals.....

I hope, what goes around, comes around.......

you should really re-read some of the well written, factual comments made here so far, you might learn something other than how to put a hoop in your striped trousers🤡

[frank83628]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

OK, let's start from the beginning.

 

President Yanukovych came to power promising to continue the countries move towards closer ties to the EU and to move away from Russia.  In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests known as "Euromaidan" began in response to President Yanukovych's decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia. Euromaidan soon developed into the largest democratic mass movement in Europe since 1989. Earlier that year the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement; Russia had pressured Ukraine to reject it. The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of Yanukovych and the Azarov government. Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption and abuse of power, the influence of Russia and oligarchs, police brutality, human rights violations, and repressive anti-protest laws.

 

A large, barricaded protest camp occupied Independence Square in central Kyiv throughout the 'Maidan Uprising'. In January and February 2014, clashes between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers, and the wounding of many others. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 19–22 January. Following this, protesters occupied government buildings throughout the country, and the Azarov government resigned. The deadliest clashes were on 18–20 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence. Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, who were fired on by police snipers.

On 21 February, Yanukovych and the parliamentary opposition signed an agreement to bring about an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections. Police abandoned central Kyiv that afternoon and the protesters took control. Yanukovych fled the city that evening. The next day, 22 February, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (about 73% of the parliament's 450 members). Yanukovych claimed this vote was illegal and asked Russia for help. Russian propaganda described the events as a "coup".

 

Then we have my post on Crimea, Luhansk & Donetsk.

 

The Ukrainian parliament restored the 2004 amendments to the Ukrainian constitution. An interim government, led by Arseniy Yatsenyuk, signed the EU association agreement and disbanded the Berkut. Petro Poroshenko became president after winning the 2014 presidential elections. The new government began a removal of civil servants associated with the overthrown regime. There was also widespread decommunization and de-Sovietization of the country.

 

Is that better?

 

Postcript, there is a lot of propaganda about the Maidan uprising, especially coming from Russia.  If you want to know the truth, I would urge you to watch the film Maidan (2014).  It was entirely filmed DURING the uprising and therefore it is simply truth, of course the film is unknown, probably banned, in Russia.

 

 

 

my question would be, who filmed Maidan, and what side were they on? because i doubt they were 100% neutral

[frank83628]

4 hours ago, harryviking said:

We have either Russians with western names or a bunch of western brainwashed trolls. I guess i had to happen sooner or later. 

how ironic you comment is right after conndas 

[frank83628]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Oh ok, you want the war to stop and Ukraine to be under Russian occupation. They don't want that, its their home.

Ukraine isnt under Russian occupation, only the parts that were enthnic Russian being oppressed/killed are.

 

do you think the scheduled 2 week military operation would be long enough to take all of Ukraine?

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

Ukraine isnt under Russian occupation, only the parts that were enthnic Russian being oppressed/killed are.

 

do you think the scheduled 2 week military operation would be long enough to take all of Ukraine?

Rubbish. It's under occupation

[frank83628]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Rubbish. It's under occupation

all of Ukraine?

[balo]

3 hours ago, connda said:

1. Yes
2. No. 

 

Why don't you want Ukraine to get back their territory? 

Why would you think like that if you are born in the West ?

Why are you against democracies? 

 

 

 



 

[bobbin]

My reply to Connda's word salad..

 

Thanks to a Youtube premium account and time on my hands, I attend University most days..

 

Professors and lecturers from some of the finest Universities.. Stephen Kotkin is my favorite but there are many more. Retired extremely high-ranking military and intelligence officials. Diplomats. Economists. Etc.

 

It's not that we (I) lack the intellectual firepower to engage in a wide-ranging debate on the issues, but that there is not wide-spread interest in examining the finer points.

 

And yes, you and all the other dissidents of the Western "narrative" shock me.. Diving into "whataboutism" at every opportunity. Watch some of Peter Zeihan's videos. Very engaging speaker. Russia is done. Approximately 8 million men of the usual call-up age. 1 million have already fled, while another 500.000 are dead. One Putinista claimed 150.000 dead. Laughable. Truly laughable. This is Russia's last land-grab, whether successful or not. And I'm betting on "not".

 

It was not the West that hollowed out the Russian economy. Russian cronyism and corruption did that..

 

As I said earlier, we could go on for days. But History is a truth-teller.

[sqwakvfr]

9 hours ago, connda said:

You're not Buddhist I see.  Oh yes, there is a rich pantheon of Heaven, Hell, and all points in-between in Buddhist cosmetology.  Start here:

 

 

In Between.  Not a permanent or eternal state or place.  Afterlife according to the Christian faith are two places only. Of course some would argue pergatory as well. There is no eternal place like Hell in Buddhism.

[talahtnut]

Why is the US constantly shooting at ts feet?

Lets have a war with China, Russia, Iran, North Korea.

Never mind the Petrodollar's demise.

Lets have some fun with our Nukes.

The Stan and Olly administration..

[JBChiangRai]

17 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Oh, I certainly recognize there was opposition but … well, a prominent opponent conveniently was jailed and died in prison, if I recall correctly.

 

Do you mean Alexei Navalny or Boris Nemtsov?

 

Nemtsov appeared in the polls that he was going to beat Putin.  You're probably not aware that Putin changed the law in Russia to allow the security services to assassinate on Russian soil or otherwise any enemy of the Kremlin.  Enemy of the Kremlin is open to interpretation, it can mean anyone who stands against the regime (e.g. campaigning against the regime leading up to an election).

 

Both those politicians were allegedly killed by Putin.  Navalny was killed by Novichok, it destroyed his health, a little hard labour saw him off.

 

The we have Skripol (failed assassination attempt), Anna Politkovskaya, Alexander Litvinenko, Boris Berezovsky...

 

9 hours ago, frank83628 said:

you should really re-read some of the well written, factual comments made here so far, you might learn something other than how to put a hoop in your striped trousers🤡

 

I am glad you raised that.  Some of those well written factual comments have been debunked by me in great detail. Like the fiction the Luhansk and Donbas are majority Russian, I posted 2 surveys disproving that.

 

8 hours ago, frank83628 said:

 

my question would be, who filmed Maidan, and what side were they on? because i doubt they were 100% neutral

 

Interesting you should raise that.  Due to his film studies and life in Russia, Sergey Loznitsa named himself a Russian documentary filmmaker. Sergey Loznitsa - Biography - IMDb

 

8 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Ukraine isnt under Russian occupation, only the parts that were enthnic Russian being oppressed/killed are.

 

do you think the scheduled 2 week military operation would be long enough to take all of Ukraine?

 

As I have just said, none of those parts were ethnic Russian, only a minority of the population were.  The invaders expected to be welcomed with open arms and that was far from what happened.

 

A 2 week military operation is more than enough to take all of Ukraine.  The mistake Russia made was concentrating on the Donbas area instead of Kyiv.  Had they succeeded in Kyiv and knocked out communication networks, the country would have fallen in days.  Like most dictators, Putin has surrounded himself with sycophants, all he hears is what he wants to hear.  Idiots like Kadyrov told Putin they would conquer Kyiv for him.

Edited June 19 by JBChiangRai
Spellification

[BobBKK]

11 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Don't you want peace? Don't you want Ukraine to get its territory back?

 1. Yes
2. No - because they slaughtered people in the Donbas, got rid of the elected government and became a USA poodle. Russia could not stand by and watch the slaughter of its citizens - would you?

[BobBKK]

14 hours ago, animalmagic said:

Was Russia not the invader who was humiliated during the period I quoted?  Were they welcomed with open arms? Did they leave as liberators and heroes?

The conversation is about Russia and your inability to accept any wrongdoing by them but simply quote others wrongdoing to absolve your beloved Russia; Russia seems to be as a big a bully as anyone else you cite.

 You are deflecting by going back to 1979 - let's all stick to the 2000s, shall we? I never said Russia was right in 1979, did I? Stop deflecting - the USA is a bully all over the world, and you know it.

[animalmagic]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 You are deflecting by going back to 1979 - let's all stick to the 2000s, shall we? I never said Russia was right in 1979, did I? Stop deflecting - the USA is a bully all over the world, and you know it.

Paying attention to history is deflection?!  Why do you, or Russia, get to choose the cut off point?  1979 is within the living memory of many on this forum.

Russia is also a bully all over the world, and you know it.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 1. Yes
2. No - because they slaughtered people in the Donbas, got rid of the elected government and became a USA poodle. Russia could not stand by and watch the slaughter of its citizens - would you?

 

That's the problem.  They were not Russian citizens, and they were not being slaughtered, that's Kremlin propaganda.  What was happening was de-russification and imposition of the Ukrainian language.

 

From 2014 Russia sent in hordes of undercover militia, the Donbas was relatively "sweet" before that.

 

This is Putin's land grab, pure and simple.  

[animalmagic]

14 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 1. Yes
2. No - because they slaughtered people in the Donbas, got rid of the elected government and became a USA poodle. Russia could not stand by and watch the slaughter of its citizens - would you?

I know that you now consider this as ancient history and therefore not worthy of consideration, but the reasons you quote at number 2 are the self-same reasons that the Nazis used to annex Sudetenland.  Whereas their real objective was to deny defensible land to the Czechs in order that they could march in unopposed a short time later.

They are also the same reasons that Russia used to invade Eastern Poland.  After the Germans had used false flag operations to masquerade as attacks on Germany by Poland to justify that invasion in the first place.  They transshipped concentration camp victims to be the 'victims'.

Beginning to see a trend?  It seems that Russia is keen to use historical research before the year 2000 to formulate its tactics today.

You may also wish to research the Nuremburg war trials where Russian judges and prosecutors were shocked to be informed, by Ribbentrop himself, that the non-aggression pact signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop on behalf of their psychopathic leaders, included a secret annex outlining the plan to invade and separate Poland.  Eastern Poland being inhabited by many Russian speakers and therefore needing the protection of Stalin.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, animalmagic said:

I know that you now consider this as ancient history and therefore not worthy of consideration, but the reasons you quote at number 2 are the self-same reasons that the Nazis used to annex Sudetenland.  Whereas their real objective was to deny defensible land to the Czechs in order that they could march in unopposed a short time later.

They are also the same reasons that Russia used to invade Eastern Poland.  After the Germans had used false flag operations to masquerade as attacks on Germany by Poland to justify that invasion in the first place.  They transshipped concentration camp victims to be the 'victims'.

Beginning to see a trend?  It seems that Russia is keen to use historical research before the year 2000 to formulate its tactics today.

You may also wish to research the Nuremburg war trials where Russian judges and prosecutors were shocked to be informed, by Ribbentrop himself, that the non-aggression pact signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop on behalf of their psychopathic leaders, included a secret annex outlining the plan to invade and separate Poland.  Eastern Poland being inhabited by many Russian speakers and therefore needing the protection of Stalin.

 Some of what you say is true - but you leave out the good 'ole USA and its many wars after WW2? Want me to list them? My point is that the other large countries will not let USA hegemony continue unchecked. If the USA minded its own business and looked after its own people many problems would stop - and don't try and claim the US is the 'leader of the world' and has a duty to interfere in virtually every country in the world.

[BobBKK]

15 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

That's the problem.  They were not Russian citizens, and they were not being slaughtered, that's Kremlin propaganda.  What was happening was de-russification and imposition of the Ukrainian language.

 

From 2014 Russia sent in hordes of undercover militia, the Donbas was relatively "sweet" before that.

 

This is Putin's land grab, pure and simple.  

Many, many videos showing the slaughter in Donbas pre 2014 - now most taken down under US orders. Some might still be around just do a tad of research - you are totally WRONG.

[animalmagic]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Some of what you say is true - but you leave out the good 'ole USA and its many wars after WW2? Want me to list them? My point is that the other large countries will not let USA hegemony continue unchecked. If the USA minded its own business and looked after its own people many problems would stop - and don't try and claim the US is the 'leader of the world' and has a duty to interfere in virtually every country in the world.

All of what I say above is true!  Now who is using deflection? You continue to use to deflection with complaints about USA without acknowledging the current wrongs of Russia today in Ukraine. 

Interfering in virtually every country in the world is why every country in the world has embassies!

[Bkk Brian]

36 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 1. Yes
2. No - because they slaughtered people in the Donbas, got rid of the elected government and became a USA poodle. Russia could not stand by and watch the slaughter of its citizens - would you?

More Russian meme talking points with no basis in reality. 

[JBChiangRai]

15 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Many, many videos showing the slaughter in Donbas pre 2014 - now most taken down under US orders. Some might still be around just do a tad of research - you are totally WRONG.

 

You're a Q Anon conspiracist too?

 

I suggest you post some links to backup your claim.

[BobBKK]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You're a Q Anon conspiracist too?

 

I suggest you post some links to backup your claim.

 You can Google it yourself, and I explained 100s of videos have been taken down on YouTube.

 

How many people have died in Donbas since 2014?

 

 

 

War in Donbas (before 2022 invasion) The overall number of estimated deaths in the war in Donbas from 6 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 was 14,200–14,400. 

[BobBKK]

19 minutes ago, animalmagic said:

All of what I say above is true!  Now who is using deflection? You continue to use to deflection with complaints about USA without acknowledging the current wrongs of Russia today in Ukraine. 

Interfering in virtually every country in the world is why every country in the world has embassies!

 Wars... The USA loves war - especially proxy wars where others die, and they pick up the paycheck. Ukraine has NOTHING to do with the USA - let Ukraine fight if it wants to. What if Russia supplies money and intel to Mexico is that ok?  or Hawaii?  or, CUBA, your hypocrisy is mindblowing. 

Edited June 19 by BobBKK

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 You can Google it yourself, and I explained 100s of videos have been taken down on YouTube.

 

How many people have died in Donbas since 2014?

 

 

 

War in Donbas (before 2022 invasion) The overall number of estimated deaths in the war in Donbas from 6 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 was 14,200–14,400. 

That's not a link,  and your figure is extremely misleading as it includes military. Actual civilians is 3k+ and includes Ukrainians. Like I said, a meme Russian talking point

 

Conflict-related civilian casualties in Ukraine1

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

[BobBKK]

50 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

That's the problem.  They were not Russian citizens, and they were not being slaughtered, that's Kremlin propaganda.  What was happening was de-russification and imposition of the Ukrainian language.

 

From 2014 Russia sent in hordes of undercover militia, the Donbas was relatively "sweet" before that.

 

This is Putin's land grab, pure and simple.  

 "What was happening was de-russification and imposition of the Ukrainian language"

so that's ok?  Muslims come to USA we "de- Muslim" them?   Jews too?  "de-Jew" them?  impose our language on all?  no Italian allowed?  New Yorkers will love that - no more Chinatowns?  hypocrisy! 

You have admitted that the same strategy as the nazis in 1940s is ok in Ukraine - it is not 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 You can Google it yourself, and I explained 100s of videos have been taken down on YouTube.

 

How many people have died in Donbas since 2014?

 

 

 

War in Donbas (before 2022 invasion) The overall number of estimated deaths in the war in Donbas from 6 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 was 14,200–14,400. 

 

Your quoting war now, you were quoting slaughter before.

 

Again, what you have posted is your undoing.  Let's look at why those people died...

 

In February 2014, Russian military covertly attacked and occupied Ukrainian Crimea. Protests and unrests started in the East of Ukraine (Donbas), with researchers characterize as "unclear to what extent the protests in the east were initiated by local dissatisfaction with the situation in Kyiv, and to what extent they were organized and supported from Russia".

Ukraine and Russia - Paul D'Anieri - Google Books

 

After years of illegitimate meddling, Russia’s covert armed attack on Ukraine began with the military occupation of Crimea in late February 2014. In parallel with a successful operation to annex the South Ukrainian peninsula, Russia instigated unrest in the eastern Ukrainian Donets Basin (Donbas) and attempted to do so elsewhere in the country. In May 2014, Moscow’s agents managed to establish two unrecognized artificial statelets, the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (DNR) and the “Lugansk People’s Republic” (LNR). In doing so, Moscow employed some of the tools it had previously used to prop up the non-government-controlled areas that had emerged in Moldova and Georgia in the 1990s. It then used older recipes from its interventions in Georgia and Moldova to establish negotiation formats and foundational texts in order to trap the victims of Russian aggression and involve Western states in the logic of “frozen conflict”.

After some territorial gains by the Moscow-led paramilitary units, the Ukrainian armed forces launched an initially successful counter-offensive in the summer of 2014. Kyiv reconquered a significant amount of lost territory, including the strategically crucial port city of Mariupol. Before this, apart from special forces operatives and irregular fighters sent by Moscow, only smaller groups of regular Russian troops had entered eastern Ukraine. In late August 2014, however, Russia intervened for the first time in this part of the country, sending a large detachment of unmarked regular ground forces to fight on behalf of its Donbas proxy militias. Following a devastating defeat of the Ukrainian army at Ilovaisk and fearing significant further losses, Kyiv agreed to negotiations with Moscow in Minsk, the capital of Belarus.

Russia’s Dictated Non-Peace for Ukraine in 2014-2022 - Sceeus

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 "What was happening was de-russification and imposition of the Ukrainian language"

so that's ok?  Muslims come to USA we "de- Muslim" them?   Jews too?  "de-Jew" them?  impose our language on all?  no Italian allowed?  New Yorkers will love that - no more Chinatowns?  hypocrisy! 

You have admitted that the same strategy as the nazis in 1940s is ok in Ukraine - it is not 

 

It is normal for most states in the world to require basic proficiency in their language before granting citizenship.

 

If you're asking me was it wrong for Ukraine to try and remove Russian as a language, yes it was wrong.

 

Was it correct to make sure Ukrainian is the principal language used in schools, yes it was absolutely correct and is done all over the world.

 

In my country, we accept all faiths and nationalities, but our schools teach English.  We don't accept British children growing up and not understanding our language and that is correct for Ukraine & Ukrainian.

 

 

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Your quoting war now, you were quoting slaughter before.

 

Again, what you have posted is your undoing.  Let's look at why those people died...

 

In February 2014, Russian military covertly attacked and occupied Ukrainian Crimea. Protests and unrests started in the East of Ukraine (Donbas), with researchers characterize as "unclear to what extent the protests in the east were initiated by local dissatisfaction with the situation in Kyiv, and to what extent they were organized and supported from Russia".

Ukraine and Russia - Paul D'Anieri - Google Books

 

After years of illegitimate meddling, Russia’s covert armed attack on Ukraine began with the military occupation of Crimea in late February 2014. In parallel with a successful operation to annex the South Ukrainian peninsula, Russia instigated unrest in the eastern Ukrainian Donets Basin (Donbas) and attempted to do so elsewhere in the country. In May 2014, Moscow’s agents managed to establish two unrecognized artificial statelets, the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (DNR) and the “Lugansk People’s Republic” (LNR). In doing so, Moscow employed some of the tools it had previously used to prop up the non-government-controlled areas that had emerged in Moldova and Georgia in the 1990s. It then used older recipes from its interventions in Georgia and Moldova to establish negotiation formats and foundational texts in order to trap the victims of Russian aggression and involve Western states in the logic of “frozen conflict”.

After some territorial gains by the Moscow-led paramilitary units, the Ukrainian armed forces launched an initially successful counter-offensive in the summer of 2014. Kyiv reconquered a significant amount of lost territory, including the strategically crucial port city of Mariupol. Before this, apart from special forces operatives and irregular fighters sent by Moscow, only smaller groups of regular Russian troops had entered eastern Ukraine. In late August 2014, however, Russia intervened for the first time in this part of the country, sending a large detachment of unmarked regular ground forces to fight on behalf of its Donbas proxy militias. Following a devastating defeat of the Ukrainian army at Ilovaisk and fearing significant further losses, Kyiv agreed to negotiations with Moscow in Minsk, the capital of Belarus.

Russia’s Dictated Non-Peace for Ukraine in 2014-2022 - Sceeus

 Total deflection by biased media, and you know it. They OWN you hook, line and sinker.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions