Withdraw with foreign atm or wise transfer safe 2024(tax wise)?

[sanook 1]

As the headline says,are those 2 options considered "safe" with the new Thai tax law 2024,or any other options/suggestions?

[gamb00ler]

Probably your decision to discuss methods of hiding assessable income in a public forum isn't your best idea today.

[koolkarl]

Safer to move out of Thailand based on whats coming.

[soalbundy]

Yesterday I saw an interview with a top Thai tax consultant who said ATM withdrawals are not taxed, probably because it just isn't possible. Wise as a financial platform would mean all transfers are traceable, especially as they land on your bank account. An ATM only lets you withdraw 25K at one time so you are looking at 3 withdrawals a month with the accompanying withdrawal charges from not only your Thai bank but also your home bank 3x a month, over a year that adds up. My home bank charges 5 euros (200 Baht) per ATM withdrawal, a Thai bank between 120 and 180 Baht so over a year you are paying around 7,200 Baht to your home bank per year and 4,500 Baht to your Thai bank makes 11,520 Baht.

150,000 - 300,000 = 5% tax

300,000 -500,000 =10% tax

500,000 - 750,000 - 15% tax and so on climbing up to 35% but not 35% for the whole amount, first 5% then 10% and so on Then there are all the possible deductions from the whole sum, my deductions work out to around 640,000 Baht only what is left gets taxed. I've worked out that I would pay 27,000 Baht tax (687 Euros) for a whole year, that isn't going to break the bank even though paying tax is unpleasant.

[bamnutsak]

21 hours ago, sanook 1 said:

As the headline says,are those 2 options considered "safe" with the new Thai tax law 2024,or any other options/suggestions?

 

I think you, as an individual, have to decide what assessable income to declare when/if you file a tax return.

 

Such remittances may represent non-assessable/exempt income. But I'm not sure there is a method to exempt them. I might direct my U.S. SocSec to a U.S. bank, then wire-transfer some/all of that to my Thai bank account.

 

For me, ATM withdrawals come at the daily VISA rate, no home bank fees, and the local ATM fee (220 THB is refunded). For me, SWIFT transfers are free (but come to Bangkok Bank at their TT rate, and their 200 ~ 500 baht fee).

 

 

Another challenge is foreign credit card usage. For which I might use Social Security "income" to pay off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BKKKevin]

Curious?…

If my Wise transfer is not coded by my Thai bank as a foreign transfer

(Wen Wise transfers fly funds from another Thai bank)

Would this be accessible income from abroad?…

[bradiston]

Wise foreign currency accounts are opened in the country of that currency, Belgium in the case of their Euro account. So I'm not sure they'd be taxable here unless or until you transferred funds from them to a Thai bank account. I'm not sure I fully understand all the implications of this world wide tax law, so I'm going to spend less than 180 days a year here as an interim solution.

Edited July 6 by bradiston

[Galong]

20 minutes ago, bamnutsak said:

 

I might direct my U.S. SocSec to a U.S. bank, then wire-transfer some/all of that to my Thai bank account.

Everything that I've read, including the US/Thai DTA, says US Soc Sec is not taxable outside of the US.

I hope the Thai government honors this and doesn't try to test the waters with individuals just because they can. 🤞🤞

[bamnutsak]

5 minutes ago, Galong said:

Everything that I've read, including the US/Thai DTA, says US Soc Sec is not taxable outside of the US.

 

Yes, that is my current understanding.

 

 

[phetphet]

56 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yesterday I saw an interview with a top Thai tax consultant who said ATM withdrawals are not taxed, probably because it just isn't possible. Wise as a financial platform would mean all transfers are traceable, especially as they land on your bank account. An ATM only lets you withdraw 25K at one time so you are looking at 3 withdrawals a month with the accompanying withdrawal charges from not only your Thai bank but also your home bank 3x a month, over a year that adds up. My home bank charges 5 euros (200 Baht) per ATM withdrawal, a Thai bank between 120 and 180 Baht so over a year you are paying around 7,200 Baht to your home bank per year and 4,500 Baht to your Thai bank makes 11,520 Baht.

150,000 - 300,000 = 5% tax

300,000 -500,000 =10% tax

500,000 - 750,000 - 15% tax and so on climbing up to 35% but not 35% for the whole amount, first 5% then 10% and so on Then there are all the possible deductions from the whole sum, my deductions work out to around 640,000 Baht only what is left gets taxed. I've worked out that I would pay 27,000 Baht tax (687 Euros) for a whole year, that isn't going to break the bank even though paying tax is unpleasant.

I think I watched the same interview. He didn't seem to imply any illegality either.

It might make it worthwhile to pay (if possible) any large bills by foreign credit card.

I already enquired about  paying GF's daughters school fees, but not possible as school not set up to take credit cards. Therein lies one common problem here.

 

[bkk6060]

ATMS', credit card, exchange booths, bank accounts etc.  People really think the government has the technology, staff and motivation to track all these transactions for tax purposes?

Unbelievable.

Edited July 6 by bkk6060

[soalbundy]

Whatever you do, whichever method you try, it's going to cost you money in fees or i worse exchange rates but yes you may save some money although at the risk of later being accused of tax avoidance, is it really worth it? Staying for less than 180 days and moving somewhere else for half a year isn't without cost either. Sooner or later the last tax free refuges are going to be plugged because the major world players don't like tax free zones. As the saying goes 'taxes and death are the two unavoidable facts of life'.

[Mike Teavee]

8 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

ATMS', credit card, exchange booths, bank accounts etc.  People really think the government has the technology, staff and motivation to track all these transactions for tax purposes?

Unbelievable.

CRS only reports end of period account balances (IIRC could be as little as once per year) so no way of tracking ATM withdrawals or credit card transactions. 

 

However, TRD could decide to do an audit on anybody who doesn't appear to be spending any money from a Thai Bank account and ask them where they are getting the money to live on... If they then decide that you're lifestyle costs 100,000 THB pm, they can tax you on this amount & apply any penalties for not reporting the income. 

 

Edit: OP Wise transfers will be reported even if they show up as an Internal Transfer. 

Edited July 6 by Mike Teavee

[bradiston]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Whatever you do, whichever method you try, it's going to cost you money in fees or i worse exchange rates but yes you may save some money although at the risk of later being accused of tax avoidance, is it really worth it? Staying for less than 180 days and moving somewhere else for half a year isn't without cost either. Sooner or later the last tax free refuges are going to be plugged because the major world players don't like tax free zones. As the saying goes 'taxes and death are the two unavoidable facts of life'.

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Tax evasion isn't. Ask Google, Amazon, Microsoft etc etc.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

ATMS', credit card, exchange booths, bank accounts etc.  People really think the government has the technology, staff and motivation to track all these transactions for tax purposes?

Unbelievable.

Don't underestimate any tax office, they are patient. Taxation possibilities are easy for the state, they just give the order for the technological responsibility to a third party, for instance, your ATM withdrawal could be taxed at source at the ATM, a foreign credit or debit card usage would be the trigger for the banks computer to deduct the tax from the payout once the computer connects with the IO to ascertain that you are a tax resident, it would be the banks responsibility to ensure this, no cost to the state. Modern technology, AI? wouldn't need more personnel, its impersonal you would have to do the running around to get your deductions recognized if you don't turn in a tax form. I've had dealings with British and German tax officials, they are like a dog with a bone regarding their paragraphs but on a personal level they just don't care.

[Presnock]

20 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Tax evasion isn't. Ask Google, Amazon, Microsoft etc etc.

Well, did read the last couple of days that Portugal is going to stop taxing some folks that they had decided weren't paying their fair share.  I think after the OECD last year and the intial thoughts by countries to do something has not turned out the way they originally thought so while some like Thailand are going to try to garner lots of taxes from expats, I think when the dust settles they will have to change the taxation laws again to keep expats here or get folks to retire here.  They can't tax everything or else people will go to those countries that recognize this like Malyasian, the PI, Cambodia, and I think VN too.

 I really think that the Thais still don't know the "how" all this is going to work let alone if they try the worldwide income bit.  WE'll see....

[bamnutsak]

42 minutes ago, phetphet said:

I already enquired about  paying GF's daughters school fees, but not possible as school not set up to take credit cards. Therein lies one common problem here.

 

Yes, and they may only take Thai credit cards. Or they may add on a 3% uplift on the bill for domestic or foreign credit card use..

 

I was surprised JIB (new PC build, Advice will only take Thai credit cards) took a foreign credit card.

 

Most of my medical and dental is paid with a foreign credit card. All three of my Visa cards do not charge any foreign transaction fees.

 

 

 

BTW, are out-of-pocket medical expenses deductible on the Thai tax return, all or in part?

 

 

[bamnutsak]

40 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Whatever you do, whichever method you try, it's going to cost you money in fees

 

No. Not for everyone. 

 

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

 

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but does anyone know what the situation would be regarding making transfers from overseas to your Thai wife’s account, to then access some of your funds this way ?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, bamnutsak said:

 

No. Not for everyone. 

 

 

Your words in god's ear.

[bamnutsak]

Just now, soalbundy said:

Your words in god's ear.

 

No clue what that means?

[J Branche]

Just read Por 162 published on 20 November 2023 in Thai Language on the Revenue Departments website.  Additionally Foreigners Pay Tax2024.pdf has some pictures indicating what will and will not be taxed.

 

You will need to track and possibly prove it was assessable earned income from prior to Jan 1 2024 so it is Not Taxed when remitted to Thailand 

[J Branche]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but does anyone know what the situation would be regarding making transfers from overseas to your Thai wife’s account, to then access some of your funds this way ?

I am no expert so fact check what I write is currently accurate.

 

My understanding is you can gift up to 10,000,000 baht to certain people without them paying taxes.  You can Not benefit or receive any of this money in return or it may cause many difficulties you may not want solve.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

10 minutes ago, J Branche said:

I am no expert so fact check what I write is currently accurate.

 

My understanding is you can gift up to 10,000,000 baht to certain people without them paying taxes.  You can Not benefit or receive any of this money in return or it may cause many difficulties you may not want solve.

 

ten million ?

[statman78]

2 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

 

I think you, as an individual, have to decide what assessable income to declare when/if you file a tax return.

 

Such remittances may represent non-assessable/exempt income. But I'm not sure there is a method to exempt them. I might direct my U.S. SocSec to a U.S. bank, then wire-transfer some/all of that to my Thai bank account.

 

For me, ATM withdrawals come at the daily VISA rate, no home bank fees, and the local ATM fee (220 THB is refunded). For me, SWIFT transfers are free (but come to Bangkok Bank at their TT rate, and their 200 ~ 500 baht fee).

 

 

Another challenge is foreign credit card usage. For which I might use Social Security "income" to pay off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

US Social Security money is not taxed in Thailand.  I currently have my SS money deposited into my US bank account then transfer money as needed to my Thai account as you mentioned in your post.  The remainder stays in the US and I use it to pay my US credit card bills.  As long as the amount I transfer into Thailand is less than the amount I get from Social Security I will not need to pay any taxes in Thailand according to several tax experts I’ve spoken to.

 

As for using an ATM here in Thailand, my US bank reimburses me for any ATM fees as long as I have my investment accounts with them.

Edited July 6 by statman78

[john donson]

imagine withdrawing 10.000 baht and only getting 8.500 ... 15% withheld at base, a bit like the loansharks, lending 10k and only getting 8... 

[nickmondo]

The worst thing you can do is post on here and asking for opinions.

Lots of crap spoken here.

Just look for official announcements in the Gazette.

Reading the rubbish on here will just confuse you 

[freeworld]

23 minutes ago, john donson said:

imagine withdrawing 10.000 baht and only getting 8.500 ... 15% withheld at base

Never going to happen, nowhere in the world does this occur.

[phetphet]

44 minutes ago, john donson said:

imagine withdrawing 10.000 baht and only getting 8.500 ... 15% withheld at base, a bit like the loansharks, lending 10k and only getting 8... 

And imagine if the exchange rate gets worse. You won't even get 8500.

[proton]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Whatever you do, whichever method you try, it's going to cost you money in fees or i worse exchange rates but yes you may save some money although at the risk of later being accused of tax avoidance, is it really worth it? Staying for less than 180 days and moving somewhere else for half a year isn't without cost either. Sooner or later the last tax free refuges are going to be plugged because the major world players don't like tax free zones. As the saying goes 'taxes and death are the two unavoidable facts of life'.

 

Not if you bring cash in with you it wont, $20k would last me two years