Striking Back: The West's Need for a Stronger Response to Russia's Hybrid War

[Fortean1]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Wrong.

 

"On 10 June 2013, former Dutch prime minister Ruud Lubbers confirmed the existence of 22 shared nuclear bombs at Volkel Air Base.[22] This was inadvertently confirmed again in June 2019 when a public draft report to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was discovered to reference the existence of US nuclear weapons at Volkel, as well as locations in Belgium, Italy, Germany, and Turkey."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

 

Terry sayz:

This is true; however, the U.S. maintains control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I did not know about Belgium and Germany.  Italy I knew about and the TUSLOG detachments in Turkey maintain control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I'm late answering as my youngest son called as he was driving from Maryland to Ohio.

 

Poland is not out of the question, the US and Poland are discussing including Poland in nuclear sharing.

 

Terry sayz:

 

It would be insane to put even tactical nuclear weapons in Poland.  Putin has toyed with putting tactical nukes in Belarus.  That president in Belarus owes his 'election' to Putin.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

The Russian actions in Crimea came AFTER 2008 when NATO had revealed it was breaking its "iron clad guarantee" to Russia not to expand NATO. Russia had long before then repeatedly marked a line in the sand that NATO expansion in Georgia and Ukraine is unacceptable.

 

Terry sayz:

Do diplomats and countries give "iron clad guarantees".  This might have been implied.

Do we have a treaty saying that?  I do not know.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Lol, yes only a "defensive system" pointing nuclear weapons at you from many countries and encircling you, creeping ever closer. So very defensive, lol.

 

Terry sayz:

The bottom line is that NATO countries do not have the stomach for attacking Russia and occupying any portion of the country.  I remember in Naples seeing members of the Italian Communist Party protesting against the deployment of Pershing missiles to Europe.  The Pershing II compared to the SS-20 Saber was a standoff and subsequent

treaty eliminated these intermediate range nuclear missiles.  Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_II

 

No, you're plain wrong, on literally everything. Putin is only interested in taking a part of the Ukraine, the Donbass region. This is what Putin has said repeatedly and what the military operations show. As you well know the Kiev convoy halted and did not attack Kiev. All the real fighting was elsewhere. Possibly it was a dstraction to fool the enemy that Russia was about to strike Kiev, to confuse the enemy. It certainly succeeded in confusing everyone since to this day there is just speculation about this convoy. But the real fighting was elsewhere.

 

Terry sayz:

The Donbass does have a Russian-speaking population.  Russian military fought in the Donbass without using Russian uniforms, that is, acting as a 'volunteer' force.  Yes, the heavy armored feint north of Kiev failed to reach Kiev.  Ukrainians were murdered, raped, and abused in that area.  Putin thought an easy and quick victory.  Yes, fighting elsewhere was 'real' as was the fighting north of Kiev where Ukrainian special forces and poor logistics doomed this 'feint' to failure.

 

It is just after 1 a.m. on Monday here in Thailand.  Let's just say we agree to disagree.  It is indeed not all black and white.

 

[Fortean1]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Wrong.

 

"On 10 June 2013, former Dutch prime minister Ruud Lubbers confirmed the existence of 22 shared nuclear bombs at Volkel Air Base.[22] This was inadvertently confirmed again in June 2019 when a public draft report to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was discovered to reference the existence of US nuclear weapons at Volkel, as well as locations in Belgium, Italy, Germany, and Turkey."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

 

Terry sayz:

This is true; however, the U.S. maintains control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I did not know about Belgium and Germany.  Italy I knew about and the TUSLOG detachments in Turkey maintain control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I'm late answering as my youngest son called as he was driving from Maryland to Ohio.

 

Poland is not out of the question, the US and Poland are discussing including Poland in nuclear sharing.

 

Terry sayz:

 

It would be insane to put even tactical nuclear weapons in Poland.  Putin has toyed with putting tactical nukes in Belarus.  That president in Belarus owes his 'election' to Putin.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

The Russian actions in Crimea came AFTER 2008 when NATO had revealed it was breaking its "iron clad guarantee" to Russia not to expand NATO. Russia had long before then repeatedly marked a line in the sand that NATO expansion in Georgia and Ukraine is unacceptable.

 

Terry sayz:

Do diplomats and countries give "iron clad guarantees".  This might have been implied.

Do we have a treaty saying that?  I do not know.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Lol, yes only a "defensive system" pointing nuclear weapons at you from many countries and encircling you, creeping ever closer. So very defensive, lol.

 

Terry sayz:

The bottom line is that NATO countries do not have the stomach for attacking Russia and occupying any portion of the country.  I remember in Naples seeing members of the Italian Communist Party protesting against the deployment of Pershing missiles to Europe.  The Pershing II compared to the SS-20 Saber was a standoff and subsequent

treaty eliminated these intermediate range nuclear missiles.  Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_II

 

No, you're plain wrong, on literally everything. Putin is only interested in taking a part of the Ukraine, the Donbass region. This is what Putin has said repeatedly and what the military operations show. As you well know the Kiev convoy halted and did not attack Kiev. All the real fighting was elsewhere. Possibly it was a dstraction to fool the enemy that Russia was about to strike Kiev, to confuse the enemy. It certainly succeeded in confusing everyone since to this day there is just speculation about this convoy. But the real fighting was elsewhere.

 

Terry sayz:

The Donbass does have a Russian-speaking population.  Russian military fought in the Donbass without using Russian uniforms, that is, acting as a 'volunteer' force.  Yes, the heavy armored feint north of Kiev failed to reach Kiev.  Ukrainians were murdered, raped, and abused in that area.  Putin thought an easy and quick victory.  Yes, fighting elsewhere was 'real' as was the fighting north of Kiev where Ukrainian special forces and poor logistics doomed this 'feint' to failure.

 

It is just after 1 a.m. on Monday here in Thailand.  Let's just say we agree to disagree.  It is indeed not all black and white.

 

[Fortean1]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Wrong.

 

"On 10 June 2013, former Dutch prime minister Ruud Lubbers confirmed the existence of 22 shared nuclear bombs at Volkel Air Base.[22] This was inadvertently confirmed again in June 2019 when a public draft report to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was discovered to reference the existence of US nuclear weapons at Volkel, as well as locations in Belgium, Italy, Germany, and Turkey."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

 

Terry sayz:

This is true; however, the U.S. maintains control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I did not know about Belgium and Germany.  Italy I knew about and the TUSLOG detachments in Turkey maintain control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I'm late answering as my youngest son called as he was driving from Maryland to Ohio.

 

Poland is not out of the question, the US and Poland are discussing including Poland in nuclear sharing.

 

Terry sayz:

 

It would be insane to put even tactical nuclear weapons in Poland.  Putin has toyed with putting tactical nukes in Belarus.  That president in Belarus owes his 'election' to Putin.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

The Russian actions in Crimea came AFTER 2008 when NATO had revealed it was breaking its "iron clad guarantee" to Russia not to expand NATO. Russia had long before then repeatedly marked a line in the sand that NATO expansion in Georgia and Ukraine is unacceptable.

 

Terry sayz:

Do diplomats and countries give "iron clad guarantees".  This might have been implied.

Do we have a treaty saying that?  I do not know.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Lol, yes only a "defensive system" pointing nuclear weapons at you from many countries and encircling you, creeping ever closer. So very defensive, lol.

 

Terry sayz:

The bottom line is that NATO countries do not have the stomach for attacking Russia and occupying any portion of the country.  I remember in Naples seeing members of the Italian Communist Party protesting against the deployment of Pershing missiles to Europe.  The Pershing II compared to the SS-20 Saber was a standoff and subsequent

treaty eliminated these intermediate range nuclear missiles.  Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_II

 

No, you're plain wrong, on literally everything. Putin is only interested in taking a part of the Ukraine, the Donbass region. This is what Putin has said repeatedly and what the military operations show. As you well know the Kiev convoy halted and did not attack Kiev. All the real fighting was elsewhere. Possibly it was a dstraction to fool the enemy that Russia was about to strike Kiev, to confuse the enemy. It certainly succeeded in confusing everyone since to this day there is just speculation about this convoy. But the real fighting was elsewhere.

 

Terry sayz:

The Donbass does have a Russian-speaking population.  Russian military fought in the Donbass without using Russian uniforms, that is, acting as a 'volunteer' force.  Yes, the heavy armored feint north of Kiev failed to reach Kiev.  Ukrainians were murdered, raped, and abused in that area.  Putin thought an easy and quick victory.  Yes, fighting elsewhere was 'real' as was the fighting north of Kiev where Ukrainian special forces and poor logistics doomed this 'feint' to failure.

 

It is just after 1 a.m. on Monday here in Thailand.  Let's just say we agree to disagree.  It is indeed not all black and white.

 

[Fortean1]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Wrong.

 

"On 10 June 2013, former Dutch prime minister Ruud Lubbers confirmed the existence of 22 shared nuclear bombs at Volkel Air Base.[22] This was inadvertently confirmed again in June 2019 when a public draft report to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was discovered to reference the existence of US nuclear weapons at Volkel, as well as locations in Belgium, Italy, Germany, and Turkey."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

 

Terry sayz:

This is true; however, the U.S. maintains control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I did not know about Belgium and Germany.  Italy I knew about and the TUSLOG detachments in Turkey maintain control by agreement and those PAL arming codes.  I'm late answering as my youngest son called as he was driving from Maryland to Ohio.

 

Poland is not out of the question, the US and Poland are discussing including Poland in nuclear sharing.

 

Terry sayz:

 

It would be insane to put even tactical nuclear weapons in Poland.  Putin has toyed with putting tactical nukes in Belarus.  That president in Belarus owes his 'election' to Putin.

 

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/04/22/polish-president-wants-nato-nukes-for-deterring-russia/

 

The Russian actions in Crimea came AFTER 2008 when NATO had revealed it was breaking its "iron clad guarantee" to Russia not to expand NATO. Russia had long before then repeatedly marked a line in the sand that NATO expansion in Georgia and Ukraine is unacceptable.

 

Terry sayz:

Do diplomats and countries give "iron clad guarantees".  This might have been implied.

Do we have a treaty saying that?  I do not know.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Lol, yes only a "defensive system" pointing nuclear weapons at you from many countries and encircling you, creeping ever closer. So very defensive, lol.

 

Terry sayz:

The bottom line is that NATO countries do not have the stomach for attacking Russia and occupying any portion of the country.  I remember in Naples seeing members of the Italian Communist Party protesting against the deployment of Pershing missiles to Europe.  The Pershing II compared to the SS-20 Saber was a standoff and subsequent

treaty eliminated these intermediate range nuclear missiles.  Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pershing_II

 

No, you're plain wrong, on literally everything. Putin is only interested in taking a part of the Ukraine, the Donbass region. This is what Putin has said repeatedly and what the military operations show. As you well know the Kiev convoy halted and did not attack Kiev. All the real fighting was elsewhere. Possibly it was a dstraction to fool the enemy that Russia was about to strike Kiev, to confuse the enemy. It certainly succeeded in confusing everyone since to this day there is just speculation about this convoy. But the real fighting was elsewhere.

 

Terry sayz:

The Donbass does have a Russian-speaking population.  Russian military fought in the Donbass without using Russian uniforms, that is, acting as a 'volunteer' force.  Yes, the heavy armored feint north of Kiev failed to reach Kiev.  Ukrainians were murdered, raped, and abused in that area.  Putin thought an easy and quick victory.  Yes, fighting elsewhere was 'real' as was the fighting north of Kiev where Ukrainian special forces and poor logistics doomed this 'feint' to failure.

 

It is just after 1 a.m. on Monday here in Thailand.  Let's just say we agree to disagree.  It is indeed not all black and white.

 

[Fortean1]

I waited too long to submit it seems.  The software said I should wait 5 seconds before submitting my reply.  I tried three or four times and each attempt was posted.  It is now almost 1:30 a.m.  Time to sleep.

[Cameroni]

Quote

Do diplomats and countries give "iron clad guarantees".  This might have been implied.

 

It was expressly articulated by James Baker, you can read the actual documents here:

 

"There would, of course, have to be iron-clad guarantees that NATO’s jurisdiction or forces would not move eastward. And this would have to be done in a manner that would satisfy Germany’s neighbors to the east."

 

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

See also Mitterand writing to Bush:

 

Mitterrand immediately wrote Bush in a “cher George” letter about his conversation with the Soviet leader, that “we would certainly not refuse to detail the guarantees that he would have a right to expect for his country’s security.” (See Document 20)

 

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

The Russians were told expressly that NATO will not expand eastwards. They were deceived and lied to. 

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, Fortean1 said:

I waited too long to submit it seems.  The software said I should wait 5 seconds before submitting my reply.  I tried three or four times and each attempt was posted.  It is now almost 1:30 a.m.  Time to sleep.

You should put your text in the text field, not in the quote.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/4/2024 at 3:47 AM, Roo Island said:

Are you reading RT.

 

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putin-admits-ukraine-invasion-is-an-imperial-war-to-return-russian-land/

 

Putin admits Ukraine invasion is an imperial war to “return” Russian land

Since when did any of your side believe anything on RT? You are always laughing at anyone that uses it as a source.

 

Next.

[Roo Island]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Since when did any of your side believe anything on RT? You are always laughing at anyone that uses it as a source.

 

Next.

Where did I link to RT? And yes. It's one of the worst sources for factual information. State owned media.

[Fortean1]

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

You should put your text in the text field, not in the quote.

I zoned out and thought I was replying to an email.  I'll try to delete the extra posts.  Thank you.

[gamb00ler]

redundant as other's responded with same advice to @Fortean1

Edited August 7 by gamb00ler

[thaibeachlovers]

On 8/6/2024 at 12:45 AM, Roo Island said:

Where did I link to RT? And yes. It's one of the worst sources for factual information. State owned media.

I never said you did link but you mentioned it in YOUR post. As such I can comment on it.