J.D.Vance declines to criticize Tucker Carlson over his friendly chat with Holocaust Denier

[placeholder]

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

Yes indeed, in today's money it was 4 million USD. Still remarkable for a man who had such a gigantic inheritance. However, Churchill never chose to pay off his debt, but simply kept it even after his financial windfall.

 

Again, you are insinuating that Daryl Cooper is anti-semitic without any shred of real evidence, this after calling him a holocaust denier on the basis of his comment about Germany's army being unprepared about the number of prisoners of war, the same argument made by Ruediger Overmans in his academic standard work on prisoners of war in Germany. 

 

The accusations against Cooper seem way over the top, when examined against what he actually said.

 

 

Whatever the final status of Churchill's debt, Cooper claimed that his opposition to Germany was due, at least in part, to pressure from unnamed financiers.  Where is the evidence for that? This is the kind of allegation that anti-semites resort to.

 

And it's just beyond bizarre that Carlson wouldn't have asked Cooper about this. I

 

I've looked up Ruediger Overmanns and see that his specialty was Germany casualties in WW2. Can you direct me to where he absolved the Germans of the intent to commit mass slaughter of prisoners before the war but rather that it was a case of bad logistics?

 

[still kicking]

13 hours ago, maesariang said:

All you lefties do is deflect from REAL ISSUES

You full of B/S 

[placeholder]

I've looked again at the interview with Darryl Cooper. And it's obvious how generally dishonest he is. For example, he claims that the general and false view is that the Germans turned into demons for a few years under the Nazis and then reverted to being normal people again. Why would anyone accept the scholarship of someone who offers up a straw man like that?

[placeholder]

Another claim of Cooper's is that that by not accepting the invasion of Poland, Churchill's obstinacy led to WW2. Apparently, because Cooper believes that Hitler could be trusted to keep his word not to commit any future aggression. 

[placeholder]

He also claims that when Germany went to war with Russia, the reason that all that slaughter of soldiers and civilians occurred was because they were unprepared. Apparently, he has never heard of the Generalplan Ost

 

The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst]; English: Master Plan for the East), abbreviated GPO, was Nazi Germany's plan for the genocide, extermination and large-scale ethnic cleansing of Slavs, Eastern European Jews, and other indigenous peoples of Eastern Europe categorized as "Untermenschen" in Nazi ideology.^[7][5] The campaign was a precursor to Nazi Germany's planned colonisation of Central and Eastern Europe by Germanic settlers, and it was carried out through systematic massacres, mass starvations, chattel labour, mass rapes, child abductions, and sexual slavery^[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost#:~:text=Approximately 3.3 million Soviet POWs,labour and other occupation policies..

[placeholder]

Just now, placeholder said:

He also claims that when Germany went to war with Russia, the reason that all that slaughter of soldiers and civilians occurred was because they were unprepared. Apparently, he has never heard of the Generalplan Ost

 

The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst]; English: Master Plan for the East), abbreviated GPO, was Nazi Germany's plan for the genocide, extermination and large-scale ethnic cleansing of Slavs, Eastern European Jews, and other indigenous peoples of Eastern Europe categorized as "Untermenschen" in Nazi ideology.^[7][5] The campaign was a precursor to Nazi Germany's planned colonisation of Central and Eastern Europe by Germanic settlers, and it was carried out through systematic massacres, mass starvations, chattel labour, mass rapes, child abductions, and sexual slavery^[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost#:~:text=Approximately 3.3 million Soviet POWs,labour and other occupation policies..

I wonder what does  Ruediger Overmans has to say about that?

[placeholder]

If anybody wants to view the interview below is a link. The stuff about WW2 begins at 32:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTgPEGYS2o

 

[Cameroni]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Whatever the final status of Churchill's debt, Cooper claimed that his opposition to Germany was due, at least in part, to pressure from unnamed financiers.  Where is the evidence for that? This is the kind of allegation that anti-semites resort to.

 

And it's just beyond bizarre that Carlson wouldn't have asked Cooper about this. I

 

I've looked up Ruediger Overmanns and see that his specialty was Germany casualties in WW2. Can you direct me to where he absolved the Germans of the intent to commit mass slaughter of prisoners before the war but rather that it was a case of bad logistics?

 

 

In terms of Churchill, I don't think Cooper was saying that his opposition to Germany was due in part to "pressure from unnamed financiers", what Cooper is actually saying is that Churchill's animosity to Germany was real and was already present, that he was motivated by his failure in WWI to prove that he was a capable warlord after all and that it was the British media complex and financiers  that helped put Churchill in a position where he was the person fighting for Britain, and that these financiers shared Churchill's earlier support for Zioninsm.

 

Cooper doesn't name the backers of Churchill, but he most likely means  Harry Levy-Lawson, 1st Viscount Burnham, a former proprietor of the Daily Telegraph who came from a Jewish family. As to the financiers Churchill was friends with Nathan Rothschild, 1st Baron Rothschild, and received "extensive loans" from the Rothschilds. In addition Churchill was friends with Sir Henry Strakosch GBE, an Austrian-born British banker and businessman. As a Jewish financier, the financial help he offered to Winston Churchill was exploited by Nazi propaganda during the 1930s and World War II already.

 

"Files declassified in the 2000s showed that Strakosch provided large financial gifts to Churchill in 1938 and 1940, which enabled Churchill to pay off his vast debts and to withdraw his Kent home Chartwell from sale at a time of severe financial pressures."

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Strakosch#:~:text=Sir Henry Strakosch GBE (9,Holocaust deniers in later years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Randolph_Churchill#:~:text=Churchill was a friend of,extensive loans" from the Rothschilds.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Levy-Lawson,_1st_Viscount_Burnham

 

Indeed you are right that antisemites and holocaust deniers have used this financial support from jews in their arguments, and indeed Nazi Germany already used this in their propaganda at the time. However, in this instance it is a case of the people you don't agree with having historical facts on their side. The loans to Churchill by Strakosch and Nathaniel Rothschild did happen.

 

Tucker did not seem overly interested in this, but his interest was in why did Churchill persist in fighting Nazi Germany when he did not have the means to do so. This was of course not an adversarial interview because Tucker is a fan of Cooper.

 

Overmans did write the standard work on German casualties in WW2, that's true. But that's not all. In Germany there is a work "Germany and the Second World War (German: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg) a 12,000-page, 13-volume work published by the Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt (DVA), that has taken academics from the military history centre of the German armed forces 30 years to finish. It is considered one of the ultimate standard works on WWII in German academia. Overmans wrote the chapter "Die Kriegsgefangenenpolitik des Deutschen Reiches 1939 bis 1945"("The prisoner of war policies of the German Reich 1939 to 1945").  Germany and the Second World War. Vol. IX. Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, München. pp. 729–875. ISBN 3-421-06528-4.

 

Overmans also wrote several standard works on prisoners of war and was editor of other major works on prisoners of war. His essay above ("The prisoner of war policies of the German Reich 1939 to 1945") Germany and the Second World War. Vol. IX. Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, München. pp. 729–875. ISBN 3-421-06528-4, is where you will find his exploration of  the difficulties the Wehrmacht faced in the administration of millions of Soviet prisoners, including lack of food, camps being built in the open air, lack of medical facilities, dysentry and typhus epidemics and so on. He does not absolve the Wehrmacht of mass slaughter, but explains how this mass slaughter happened. I realise you would like a moralist soundbite about this issue, but it is  large and complex issue.

 

[Cameroni]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Another claim of Cooper's is that that by not accepting the invasion of Poland, Churchill's obstinacy led to WW2. Apparently, because Cooper believes that Hitler could be trusted to keep his word not to commit any future aggression. 

 

One can debate what might have happened had Britian accepted German peace offers in 1940, however, we know that Hitler viewed Russia and the colonial peoples as the main threat to the Germanic peoples, therefore he had always said a strong British empire was needed. Besides, why would Hitler have invaded Britain, it had nothing to offer Germany. The only reason for Operation Sealion was to knock Britain out of the war.

 

It's not just that Churchill dismissed German peace offers in 1940, Cooper also says, correctly, that Britain was instrumental in turning the regional German-Polish war into a world war. Indeed, after the BEF fled at Dunkirk Britain had no means to fight back, apart from bombing civilians, and it was Churchill's plan to get either the US or Russia to fight Germany. So in a very real sense Churchill is the person most reponsible for WWII, according to Cooper.

 

 

[Cameroni]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

I've looked again at the interview with Darryl Cooper. And it's obvious how generally dishonest he is. For example, he claims that the general and false view is that the Germans turned into demons for a few years under the Nazis and then reverted to being normal people again. Why would anyone accept the scholarship of someone who offers up a straw man like that?

 

How is this dishonesty? Cooper is merely pointing out correctly that prior to WW1 Germans were viewed very favourably in Britain, but then turned into demons in WWII and then again back to good guys after the war. He is right that the innate evil of Germans is a poor and unsatsifying explanation for WWII.

[Cameroni]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

He also claims that when Germany went to war with Russia, the reason that all that slaughter of soldiers and civilians occurred was because they were unprepared. Apparently, he has never heard of the Generalplan Ost

 

The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst]; English: Master Plan for the East), abbreviated GPO, was Nazi Germany's plan for the genocide, extermination and large-scale ethnic cleansing of Slavs, Eastern European Jews, and other indigenous peoples of Eastern Europe categorized as "Untermenschen" in Nazi ideology.^[7][5] The campaign was a precursor to Nazi Germany's planned colonisation of Central and Eastern Europe by Germanic settlers, and it was carried out through systematic massacres, mass starvations, chattel labour, mass rapes, child abductions, and sexual slavery^[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost#:~:text=Approximately 3.3 million Soviet POWs,labour and other occupation policies..

 

Again, the Wehrmacht was poorly prepared for taking care of prisoners in the East, the letters by German officers  which Cooper mentions where they complain there is no food to feed the prisoners are real. The German standard scholarship agrees that the Wehrmacht made insufficient provisions for prisoners.

 

To see Generalplan Ost as a blueprint for what actually happened in the East is problematic. From your own link:

 

"It was a confidential proposal whose content was known only to those at the top level of the Nazi hierarchy"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

 

Since this plan was only known to those at the top level of the Nazi hierarchy, it is not realistic to see day to day actions carried out by Germans on the ground as motivated by this plan.

 

In addition this plan was never fully implemented. Again, from your own link:

 

"Generalplan Ost was only partially implemented during the war in territories occupied by Germany on the Eastern Front during World War II...However, its full implementation was not considered practicable during major military operations, and never materialised due to Germany's defeat."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

 

Generalplan Ost is more accurately seen as what the SS would have wanted to happen in case of German victory, it was more a plan for the future than an actual plan for how to deal with prisoners of wars on the ground during Germany's actual military operations.

 

 

[Cameroni]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

I wonder what does  Ruediger Overmans has to say about that?

 

Wolfgang Benz is more the expert on Generalplan Ost, Overmans was more someone who wanted to solve the difficult questions of what actually happened on the ground, how many Germans died, how many Soviet prisoners of war died ...

 

Generalplan Ost was more of a resettlement fantasy of the SS to be implemented after German victory. 

[animalmagic]

11 hours ago, stevenl said:

Try to get your quotes right. That wasn't me.

Apologies I copied it from your post.

[Will B Good]

Trump told the crowd: “I will support modifying the 25th Amendment to make clear that if a vice president lies or engages in a conspiracy to cover up the incapacity of the president of the United States — if you do that with a cover-up of the president of the United States, it’s grounds for impeachment immediately and removal from office, ‘cause that’s what they did.”

 

I can see Vance slumping in his chair, head in hands......555

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On 9/8/2024 at 1:36 AM, Cameroni said:

 

Again, the Wehrmacht was poorly prepared for taking care of prisoners in the East, the letters by German officers  which Cooper mentions where they complain there is no food to feed the prisoners are real. The German standard scholarship agrees that the Wehrmacht made insufficient provisions for prisoners.

 

To see Generalplan Ost as a blueprint for what actually happened in the East is problematic. From your own link:

 

"It was a confidential proposal whose content was known only to those at the top level of the Nazi hierarchy"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

 

Since this plan was only known to those at the top level of the Nazi hierarchy, it is not realistic to see day to day actions carried out by Germans on the ground as motivated by this plan.

 

In addition this plan was never fully implemented. Again, from your own link:

 

"Generalplan Ost was only partially implemented during the war in territories occupied by Germany on the Eastern Front during World War II...However, its full implementation was not considered practicable during major military operations, and never materialised due to Germany's defeat.".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

 

Generalplan Ost is more accurately seen as what the SS would have wanted to happen in case of German victory, it was more a plan for the future than an actual plan for how to deal with prisoners of wars on the ground during Germany's actual military operations.

 

 

Read it again. It says the plan was only partially implemented. Since when does "partially implemented" mean not implemented? What it means is that  the plan for the deliberate extermination of millions of Slavs and others was only partially implemented.

In fact the article goes into great detail how the plan was implemented at the beginning. For instance:

Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany launched forced starvations and advanced a "war of annihilation" (Vernichtungskrieg) in the Eastern Front to implement the Generalplan Ost. The Wehrmacht implemented scorched-earth tactics throughout the region and forcibly expelled natives en masse to the east. Nazi officials then charted out buffer zones intended to serve as future Nordic settlements. Hunger Plan was Nazi Germany's strategy to forcibly starve around 31 to 45 million Eastern Europeans by capturing food stocks and redirecting them to German forces.[64][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

At the end, the plan was no longer enforced because it drew away resources from a campaign that Hitler expected to be a cakewalk. But to claim that because it was only partially implemented means it was never implemented is blatant nonsense.

 

[placeholder]

As for Darryl Cooper, I guess we'll have to wait until some less fawning journalist asks him about the Holocaust. I predict that Cooper will give some sort of evasive answer like he hasn't researched the issue so he can't offer an opinion.

[maesariang]

26 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As for Darryl Cooper, I guess we'll have to wait until some less fawning journalist asks him about the Holocaust. I predict that Cooper will give some sort of evasive answer like he hasn't researched the issue so he can't offer an opinion.

The Nazis killed 20m people. Why single out Jewish people? They even killed several hundred German soldiers who refused their orders.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, maesariang said:

The Nazis killed 20m people. Why single out Jewish people? They even killed several hundred German soldiers who refused their orders.

Because there's a group of right wing anti-semitic conspiracy mongers  who continue to deny that it happened.  We had one flagrant bigot either in this thread or another actually post references to their works.

Edited September 9 by placeholder

[maesariang]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because there's a group of right wing anti-semitic conspiracy mongers  who continue to deny that it happened.  We had some flagrant bigot either in this thread or another actually post references to their works.

So what? Some people believe in flat earth and ghosts. People can think what they like. It is their life and their thoughts.

[placeholder]

Just now, maesariang said:

So what? Some people believe in flat earth and ghosts. People can think what they like. It is their life and their thoughts.

Yes, people have a right to be bigoted. Other people also have a moral choice whether or not they want to associate with such bigots and lend them prestige and credibility. 

[maesariang]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Yes, people have a right to be bigoted. Other people also have a moral choice whether or not they want to associate with such bigots and lend them prestige and credibility. 

Yes you can not listen to them. 

[placeholder]

35 minutes ago, maesariang said:

Yes you can not listen to them. 

And you can also choose not to not enable lowlifes. But Tucker Carlson and J.D. Vance chose a different course.

[maesariang]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And you can also choose not to not enable lowlifes. But Tucker Carlson and J.D. Vance chose a different course.

The guy isnt a lowlife. Just a difference of opinion. Harris is a low life. Changes her identity to win votes. Nothing real about her. Vance wants to help families. Trump wants to help the poor. Harris wants to stuff up supply chains and give money away overseas. She is a disgrace. Too afraid to address the media. Vance does weekly interviews.

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, maesariang said:

The guy isnt a lowlife. Just a difference of opinion. Harris is a low life. Changes her identity to win votes. Nothing real about her. Vance wants to help families. Trump wants to help the poor. Harris wants to stuff up supply chains and give money away overseas. She is a disgrace. Too afraid to address the media. Vance does weekly interviews.

A lowlife is someone who tries to explain away the deaths of millions by claiming it was unintentional when clearly it wasn't. As for the rest of your comments, thanks for polishing the haloes of Vance and Trump.  No thanks for not offering evidence.

[maesariang]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

A lowlife is someone who tries to explain away the deaths of millions by claiming it was unintentional when clearly it wasn't. As for the rest of your comments, thanks for polishing the haloes of Vance and Trump.  No thanks for not offering evidence.

Post about nothing.

[Cameroni]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

As for Darryl Cooper, I guess we'll have to wait until some less fawning journalist asks him about the Holocaust. I predict that Cooper will give some sort of evasive answer like he hasn't researched the issue so he can't offer an opinion.

 

He comes across as a very smart guy, if a bit careless, plus he's a voracious reader, so he would be well aware of the pitfalls of the holocaust. He's no doubt read what  happened to a whole host of historians who fell foul of the holocaust orthodoxy. Perhaps this is why he's not tackled the holocaust as a subject matter. He would be well advised to stay clear from it. Even a David Irving, who spent years researching in the archives himself and was highly knowledgeable about the minutiae of WWII had to concede on the stand that looking at the Einsatzgruppen deaths he made an error of judgement. This topic is a no win topic outside of academia and Cooper should steer clear. His best bet would be to issue a short text echoing academic orthodoxy on the issue of the holocaust and not to tackle it again. Even if he were to make great research, it would never be accepted because it would not have the sanction of academia.

 

Even if he talks about mass starvation, which is a documented fact about WWII, about the same number of people died of starvation as died in fighting, 20 million, he already gets accused of being a holocaust denier. It's quite bizarre.

 

 

Edited September 9 by Cameroni

[Evil Penevil]

Darryl Cooper isn't a historian, amateur or otherwise. He's a guy who reads a lot of books and articles on specific subjects, then regurgitates a flood of details and snippets strung together in his podcasts by oddball interpretations. He's become the Kim Kardashian of historical revisionism- famous for being famous.

There's nothing original or insightful in his podcasts. He simply goes down well-worn paths that have been previously trodden by more formiddable figures. Pat Buchanan wrote a book titled Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War (2008) that laid out in detail Cooper's subsequent claim that Winston Churchill was the "chief villain" of WW II. Cooper also draws heavily on the books of the (in)famous Holocaust and Hitler revisionist David Irving. Many of Cooper's notions about WWII and the Jews can be traced all the way back to the granddaddy of Holocaust deniers and Hitler white-washers, Harry Elmer Barnes in the late 1940's and onward.

Very little that Cooper says about Churchill, Hitler, WWII and the Holocaust can't be found in the works of Buchanan, Irving and Barnes. Same message, different medium.

[cdemundo]

17 hours ago, maesariang said:

The guy isnt a lowlife. Just a difference of opinion. Harris is a low life. Changes her identity to win votes. Nothing real about her. Vance wants to help families. Trump wants to help the poor. Harris wants to stuff up supply chains and give money away overseas. She is a disgrace. Too afraid to address the media. Vance does weekly interviews.

Sadly there is a sad emoji but no pathetic emoji.

"Trump wants to help the poor."

 

You believe that?

As the great philosopher Barnum is said to have observed: "There's a sucker born every minute".

[maesariang]

Just now, cdemundo said:

Sadly there is a sad emoji but no pathetic emoji.

"Trump wants to help the poor."

 

You believe that?

As the great philosopher Barnum is said to have observed: "There's a sucker born every minute".

Must be you then cause 2019 was the lowest reading on the poverty index. You just proved it.

[cdemundo]

1 minute ago, maesariang said:

Must be you then cause 2019 was the lowest reading on the poverty index. You just proved it.

" 2019 was the lowest reading on the poverty index"

 

From that you conclude that ""Trump wants to help the poor"?

What do you conclude about Trump and pandemic respiratory diseases?

Apparently he promotes those as well since they were so popular during his presidency; same logic.

 

Parse this one for me:

Socrates is a man.

All men are mortal.

Socrates is mortal.

Therefore all men are Socrates.

 

Makes as much sense as your conclusion.

Maybe this would help.