Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[Felton Jarvis]

I feel like I am covered by the Double Taxation rules, but who can be sure in Thailand? As a US citizen, I definitely have to pay taxes on my retirement income, but I see how casually certain laws are treated, and I wonder about my chances of escaping paying taxes here. I'm willing to move to Cambodia if they continue this unfair treatment, but there is no way to process what is going through their minds here.

[wmlc]

44 minutes ago, Dan SG said:

While things are generally behind the times, tax authorities are generally getting access to big data.  They will be able to run algorithms that see immigration records and transfers in and out of the country, spending patterns etc (especially looking forward to digital ledgers / currencies) and will be easy for them to track all this.  

Wrong. Immigration would just give them access to the system lol. They have it already, just like immigration has access to to their system for checking companies to see if their vat is paid. Will they enforce this new tax law? No.

Edited September 9 by wmlc

[Lorry]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The typical 30 baht scheme, outside of the major urban centers, involves junior (sometimes student) or local doctors with little experience, they are the first line of medical defense in many cases, especially in rural areas. Further up the hospital ladder and with the passage of time, unresolved cases end up with more experienced and better qualified doctors in District or Regional hospitals where medical progress is often made but most Westerners wont be willing to wait that long. The private hospital short cuts all of that by offering a more probable diagnosis, with better qualified doctors, right here and now, but at a cost. 

 

I've had first hand experience of the above on several occasion's, one where Dengue Fever was diagnosed as the flu and the patient given vitamin B shots for three days straight, On day 4 the patient was taken to a private hospital, diagnosed correctly and put on a drip within hours.

 

In a second case, this year, the District Hospital took seven hours to diagnose my wife as having the flu and the student doctor prescribed the usual symptom relievers. In parallel with that, I was diagnosed with covid in 45 minutes at the university hospital yet the student doctor treating my wife refused to accept she also had covid, even though we'd both been together in the same car for the previous fourteen hours!

 

I accept that the end result can be very similar in both 30 baht and private hospitals but the path to get to the end and the time it takes, varies massively.

 

 

 

 

 

You met so extraordinary stupidity, it beggars belief.

It is extremely simple to diagnose Dengue, and for covid there is always 7/11.

Actually,  both cases were probably not stupidity but a question of limited resources (but that doesn't help the patient).

Having said that, a couple of years ago, a district hospital in the north managed to get a 21 year old foreign tourists killed by Dengue 

Edited September 9 by Lorry

[wmlc]

2 hours ago, aussienam said:

I wouldn't say it's speculation when there have been several actual announcements made by Thai Revenue.  That goes a bit above speculation.  Thailand have joined CRS - Common Reporting Standards.  There has been this new announcement by Thai government on taxing worldwide income (actually second one I have noticed over past few months).  Not speculation.  It's definitely cause for concern, not to be dismissed and ignored.  

Sure, they may backflip or water down the final decision and legislation.  But it's definitely very worthy of solid discussion on the implications. Also, there very well may be those in government who become aware of the issues raised in these forums and helps guide decisions.  There is a massive amount at stake for expats.  

I agree with you not to be making rash decisions.  I'm not leaving right now. I am playing 'wait and see', like probably most others.  But I am formulating contingency plans now as I become more and more aware of potential implications.  These forums help raise awareness of things we may not have thought of.  

As to making rash decisions on buying property, cars etc in Thailand; I'd be holding off on everything that could result in massive tax bills and hold off committing my life more to this country (not marrying, not having kids, not getting into a relationship, not accumulating any more possessions, no pets, no longer lease etc) until it is clear what is going to occur next year.  Even if it is still 'wishy washy' (uncertain) when or if it is going ahead next year as well and we are all kept in perpetual suspense, I still won't be committing.  I remain frugal this year on spending and my incoming funds. 

 

 

Enforcement??? None

[JimGant]

7 hours ago, Ebumbu said:

If I'm already taxed in the US, I believe there's a treaty against double taxation in Thailand, no? So, I think Thailand can only tax the "foreign earned income" part of my income, which is exempt fro US taxes. Am I on the wrong track?

Definitely.

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, Presnock said:

If you do have assessable income in Thailand, you may have to pay some Thai tax if it is more than that taken out by the US....i.e. US tax rate is 10% and Thai tax rate on the amount is 15% then Thailand could charge you for 5% of that amount.

Two scenarios here. If Thailand, per DTA, has primary taxation rights on income, like private pensions -- they keep all the taxation, as if US taxation, and its credit, didn't exist. They don't lose any taxation collection due to a US tax credit, as no such credit needs to be absorbed. Only the US has to deal with absorbing a Thai taxation credit, due to having only secondary taxation rights.

 

Second scenario, much rarer is: Rental income on property in US. US has primary taxation rights on this income, thus gets to keep all taxation, without any regard to a credit. DTA, however, gives Thailand secondary taxation rights on this rental income -- but Thailand has to absorb a credit for the taxes paid to the US. Thus, credit could completely wipe out any Thai taxation - if US taxation were higher than Thai taxation. But, if Thai taxation higher, they get to keep what's left after the credit.

[david555]

3 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I already posted the proof of this a while ago.
I received a while ago a letter from my bank saying that they had send information of my account (total funds, source of the funds, etc.) to Thailand as asked by international rights.
Countdown to leave this <deleted>ty country since then.

😉 A)

That's one of the reasons i left 1 Sept. Th. after 14 years and went back to take official address in Belgium ,,,,,(pushing the reset button 🤭) and now coming only for the 6 month's to Thailand a year , giving me the privilege to get from my mutuality Solidaris (official gov. health insurance ) 3month's  in a 12 month/ year period same hospitalization in Thai hospital benefits (not to pay) as in Belgium hospitalization , included repatriation dead or alive included by my annual pay for 119 euros .

 

B

Same moment i am no tax resident of Thailand , and not living here as under 180 days stay , as i need also to keep my official living address in Belgium to benefit that free hospitalization ...

and under our Belgium law some may be absent for max. 1  year for touristic reason  (or some other ) whiteout loosing your official address in Belgium under condition to report this to your communal administration before 

 

C)

This might be a opportunity for you too as i assume you be Belgium too

Edited September 9 by david555

[Albaby]

8 hours ago, Will B Good said:

 

As I understand it.....if it goes into your Thai bank account it is potentially taxable.....cash from the ATM is not.

I've stopped transferring to my ac, I now send it via Wise to my wife's ac + her allowance. She take what's mine out and gives it to me in cash.

[Dmitry2222]

18 minutes ago, Albaby said:

I've stopped transferring to my ac, I now send it via Wise to my wife's ac + her allowance. She take what's mine out and gives it to me in cash.

I have done in similar way, let the wife figure it out with this government and taxes, 😄

[gamb00ler]

3 hours ago, Cabradelmar said:

Not only that, all DTAs will need to be rewritten as they are changing (in its entirety) the system of taxation the old DTAs where based on.

There is almost no dependency between a DTA and the participating country's tax codes.  DTA's usually just settle which income streams are taxable by each signatory and the priority of each country's tax claims.  If the DTA does define restrictions on methods and level of taxation it is only on income streams originating in that country.  For example the Thai-Canada agreement restricts the percentage of taxation each country can apply on specific income streams originating in that country.

 

Bottom line is there will be no need to rewrite the DTA's.

[ernji]

Re the CRS, not that I'm an expert, but it seems to me that it's linked to where you declare your tax residency on the bank accounts in your "home" countries, along with the country you declare yourself to be resident in with that tax authority. So pick a non participating country (eg Cambodia) and declare yourself to be resident there. That way Thailand should never receive the interchange of data.

[msbkk]

10 minutes ago, ernji said:

Re the CRS, not that I'm an expert, but it seems to me that it's linked to where you declare your tax residency on the bank accounts in your "home" countries, along with the country you declare yourself to be resident in with that tax authority. So pick a non participating country (eg Cambodia) and declare yourself to be resident there. That way Thailand should never receive the interchange of data.

Banks have started to ask for customers TAX TIN number. It is not longer enough to tell your tax residency.

[Mike Teavee]

43 minutes ago, ernji said:

Re the CRS, not that I'm an expert, but it seems to me that it's linked to where you declare your tax residency on the bank accounts in your "home" countries, along with the country you declare yourself to be resident in with that tax authority. So pick a non participating country (eg Cambodia) and declare yourself to be resident there. That way Thailand should never receive the interchange of data.

It's not just your bank that shares the data, E.g. HMRC (UK Tax Authority) also shares data with Thailand under CRS.  

 

Edited September 9 by Mike Teavee

[Stargeezr]

Does this mean that the Nomads will just be the Mads from now on?

[Confuscious]

4 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Was this in regards to your visa application?

 

I can't think of any other reason why Thailand would be interested in your Belgian bank account.

Nothing to do with visa application.
The document translated by Google translate.
Personal information and bank details are taken out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Visual search results
Translated text

 

[name] Bank & Insurance
[name]  Customer and Account Services
CRSReporting@[name].be
MR [name + address]
Our reference: ......
Brussel, 23 mei 2024
Topic: Automatic information exchange in the context of CRS
Ir/Madam,
Below you will find an overview of the data relating to ......, which will be the subject of information exchange to THAILAND for the year 2023.
This exchange takes place via the FPS Finance and takes place in the context of the Common Reporting Standard ('CRS'). 
[name] Bank provides this information in accordance with the Act regulating the communication of information regarding financial accounts of 16/12/2015 implementing the European Directive 2014/107/EU of 09/12/2014.
The data exchanged is as follows:
OVERVIEW OF THE PERSONAL DATA EXCHANGED BY ......
Name
Legal address THAILAND
Date of Birth
Place of birth
Country of birth
Tax Identification Number (TIN) (issued by)

OVERVIEW OF THE EXCHANGE OF PRODUCT DATA AND TRANSACTIONS OF .....
Explanation of the overview below:
The data with (*) is not exchanged and [name] Bank has only added it for clarification.
(A*) Product name.
(B) Product number.
(C) Balance of your product in EUR. Negative balances and balances of closed products are exchanged as 0.00.
(D) Date of the balance of your product in (C).
(E) Reference of your product, used in the information exchange and known to your tax authorities.
(F) Type of transaction, as determined in the aforementioned regulations.
(G) Total amount for this type of transaction calculated in the same currency. Negative totals are exchanged as 0.00.
(H*) Type of transaction, product and, if applicable, name of the security, as known to [name] Bank.
(1*) Amount and currency of the transaction, as determined in the aforementioned regulations.
(Y*) Date on which the transaction was paid to you.
(K*) Reference of your transaction, which you will find on the statement of your transaction.

.... ACCOUNT BE......... [amount] EUR 31/12/2023
.... ACCOUNT BE......... [amount] EUR 31/12/2023
INTEREST 
... account interest EUR ... 02-01-2023 (VAL 01-01-2023)
MASTERCARD .... EUR .... 02/01/2023 (VAL 01-01-2023)

[bank] Bank & Insurance
EXPLANATION
In this document, [bank] Bank limits itself to the exact representation of the data that are the subject of information exchange. This is done on the basis of information known to the bank and instructions imposed by the aforementioned regulations and the Belgian tax administration.
This overview is therefore only indicative and, for example, does not necessarily correspond to the income that you must declare in your tax return.
There is a right to have the personal data that concerns you corrected. You can submit a dated and signed request to [bank] Bank for this.
Everything about Common Reporting Standard can be found at www.oecd.org/ctp/exchange-of-tax-Information/Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Common-Reporting-Standard.pdf.
Do you have any questions? Please feel free to contact us, either by telephone on +32 ..... , or by email: CRSReporting@[bank].be.
 

[solidad90]

5 hours ago, Confuscious said:

I already posted the proof of this a while ago.
I received a while ago a letter from my bank saying that they had send information of my account (total funds, source of the funds, etc.) to Thailand as asked by international rights.
Countdown to leave this <deleted>ty country since then.

 

non sense... CRS can be consulted thru a portal accessible by financial authorities of each signatory country.

 

Informations available are minimal, such as name, account number, balance ect... AND before anything, your account must have been a reportable account. (mean you opened / maintain this account as non tax resident of the said country), otherwise the account is not reportable.

 

Direct Requests to financial organizations are probably possible in a context of administrative assistance or in case of investigation of criminal activities, but certainly not directly between a financial organization and a revenue department of a country. 

 

at the end there are two options :

 

1 - you launder substantial amount of money, or you're involve in something fishy

 

2- you are lying

 

 

[Confuscious]

2 hours ago, david555 said:

😉 A)

That's one of the reasons i left 1 Sept. Th. after 14 years and went back to take official address in Belgium ,,,,,(pushing the reset button 🤭) and now coming only for the 6 month's to Thailand a year , giving me the privilege to get from my mutuality Solidaris (official gov. health insurance ) 3month's  in a 12 month/ year period same hospitalization in Thai hospital benefits (not to pay) as in Belgium hospitalization , included repatriation dead or alive included by my annual pay for 119 euros .

 

B

Same moment i am no tax resident of Thailand , and not living here as under 180 days stay , as i need also to keep my official living address in Belgium to benefit that free hospitalization ...

and under our Belgium law some may be absent for max. 1  year for touristic reason  (or some other ) whiteout loosing your official address in Belgium under condition to report this to your communal administration before 

 

C)

This might be a opportunity for you too as i assume you be Belgium too

I am already packing and making everything ready to leave Thailand this year.
Was planned to leave in March, but had to postpone.
I am Belgian citizen, but I will go to Spain fr the weather and the better place.
Same rights as in Belgium when living in Spain.
Bye Thailand

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

I have said time and again on this subject "They had never worked out the details of how they could do it" and hadn't got a clue when it was announced about a year ago. So all the speculation was a waste of time. This happens time and again in this country. Some politician has a "brain storm idea" and calls a press conference to announce the great new plan of a Hub for this, that and the other or a new way to scare off long term staying foreigners with endless regulations, increased costs or more paperwork.

So, will the lawyers have settled how this will be implemented in time for the big test in January or whenever they decide the tax is due.

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Saddic]

Expats don't get a vote... and what Thai will fight against the possibility of getting to pocket unlimited farang funds?

 

I for one am not interested in the apologists or pseudo-legal discussion about why the know-it-alls "attempt" to explain why it won't be or can't be done...  The attempt by Thai's to target me in their bid to expand their tax base, is enough to get me to change my plans (while I still can)...  I don't need this aggravation in my life and future...

 

Guess I'll be planning to assure I am not in-country more than 179 days... (not to mention, not even bring large funds into Thailand)...

 

well done Thailand, I'm sure I am not the only one with these thoughts...

 

so what country will become the new destination for expats that is less tax-odoriferous?  I personally will be exploring Vietnam next year...

Edited September 9 by Saddic

[Puccini]

1 hour ago, Stargeezr said:

Does this mean that the Nomads will just be the Mads from now on?

 

Eho or what sre the Mads?

[ChasingTheSun]

This will be the new choice for expats if the tax changes are enacted…
 

Pay 30% tax in Thailand:

- no permanent residency, and almost impossible to get citizenship

- no land ownership

- pay private healthcare

- pay private education 

- 90 day reporting with ever changing rules

- blackwater rivers

- hot and humid all year

 

VS
 

Pay 30% tax in Spain, Italy, or Portugal:

- permanent residency with possibility to get citizenship 

- land ownership

- good free public healthcare

- good free public education 

- NO 90 day reporting or ongoing threats to deny residency

- NO blackwater rivers

-  beautiful weather 9 months of the year

 

[Confuscious]

2 hours ago, msbkk said:

Banks have started to ask for customers TAX TIN number. It is not longer enough to tell your tax residency.

 

I don't know the relation with Foreign banks and Thailand, but a lot of people had been warned or had their accounts abroad closed already and the banks requiring the account holder(s) now to be resident in the country where they opened the bank account.
Seems that even the banks don't want to be involved in the Thai plans.

 

[david555]

2 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

 

I don't know the relation with Foreign banks and Thailand, but a lot of people had been warned or had their accounts abroad closed already and the banks requiring the account holder(s) now to be resident in the country where they opened the bank account.
Seems that even the banks don't want to be involved in the Thai plans.

 

Not specially concerning only Thailand , but because the more stringed CRS rules and fines , they don't like the trouble anymore to keep foreign based clients for all the hassle , i knew this was coming in 2022 , so i made my plan already in 2021 by leaving 1 Sept. 2022, as Thailand was strongly pushed to act as CRS  member , they waited long time to apply in full , but needed to for fill finally ...

[redwood1]

The funny thing about all this if the tax ever happens it will be a pitifully small amount of money they will take in.....There is not a single poster on this thread whos not planning to pay ZERO taxes or very close to it....One way or another....Legal or otherwise....

 

They will not be making Jack off this tax....

Edited September 9 by redwood1

[chiang mai]

30 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

The funny thing about all this if the tax ever happens it will be a pitifully small amount of money they will take in.....There is not a single poster on this thread whos not planning to pay ZERO taxes or very close to it....One way or another....Legal or otherwise....

 

They will not be making Jack off this tax....

"They will not be making Jack off this tax" ....and you know this how?

 

Entities such as a Revenue Department, don't usually waste their time changing the rules when there's no return., they will have estimated the extent to which it is worthwhile  and obviously they decided it is worth their time and effort. You seem to think this is about pulling a lever and turning a random knob to see what will happen, you've decided it's all guess work on their part which it certainly wont be.

 

You've also concluded that farangs are the target when really they are just collateral damage and largely inconsequential to their objectives. I know many farangs like to view themselves as the center of all attention and over rate their importance but this time it's not about you, as much as you think and wish it was.

 

 

[MartinBangkok]

20 hours ago, sandrew33 said:

The Big Brother cross border information sharing was started by the US with FATCA, then the Common Reporting Standard for pretty much everyone else. It’s been around for years. 
 

This is Thailand simply adopting a law that’s common in most other jurisdictions. If you live in Thailand for tax law purposes then you pay tax on worldwide income. Thailand has many double tax agreements to avoid double taxation already. Of course if you are avoiding tax in your country of origin (I.e currently paying zero tax) a DTA won’t help you much 🙂 

 

The notion that you should pay tax in Thailand if you live in Thailand isn’t a terrible one but it will certainly cause some chaos over the next few years. 

"The notion that you should pay tax in Thailand if you live in Thailand isn’t a terrible one but it will certainly cause some chaos over the next few years"

 

Are you crazy? Not a terrible notion???!! Paying tax to my home country gives me absolutely free education, including university (standards of education in a different universe compared to Thailand), 100% free health care (standard millions of miles above Thailand), several hundred welfare benefits never heard of in Thailand (how about 1 full year maternity benefit with full salary covered by the state), 1 full year on 100% salary in case of sickness (and very descent welfare support in case of not returning to workforce). Mininimum state pension of circa 80.000 Baht a month (your work pension comes in addition). Median state pension cirka 135.000 Baht per month). I could go on. Shall I? Ok, I will, freedom of speach, the right to vote, can buy land and property (and anything else), no 90 day reporting, no hell bureacracy, no price discrimination, a very good justice system (low income earners get lawyers free). Shall I still go on? How about a police force that enforces laws, first responders professionally trained and educated with world class equipment? Descent politicians and leaders which gives my country a military force that would run over Thailand in days, even though my country only has 1/7th of Thai population. Shall I give you more? Ok, no discimination of foreigners. No scams (compared to Thailand). A very low level of corruption. More??

 

PS: I am out of Thailand already after 15 years in "The land of fake smiles". Found another nation not far from Thailand, more beautiful (mountains, jungles, beaches, golf courses, girls!, and airquality and water quality (beaches) on a different level compared to Thailand. And last but not least, a people so much more expat friendly than Thais, it's hard to phatom, and they all speak English! More? Ok, I forgot to mention my soon to be new V8 muscle car (American), is less than half the price of Thailand!! (red wine too).

 

Cheers

Edited September 9 by MartinBangkok
spelling

[Danderman123]

It's unfortunate that a small number of posters here are already filing Thai tax returns, and are giving the impression that it's no big deal for Bob in the village to file a tax return next year.

 

Apparently, most of those who already file are accountants.

 

So we are having detailed discussions of arcane Thai tax law, while most Farangs who post here think that these new tax laws will never be enforced.

[ukrules]

8 hours ago, ChasingTheSun said:

TRD better think twice before they scare away a huge amount of foreigner investment and consumption.

 

Do you really think they're thinking once about any consequences?

 

Not a chance, there's a very good chance these goons will attempt to enact this BS and once someone notices that everyone with a few million dollars or more in investments has left the country they will attempt to backtrack but it will be too late by then.

 

Many people are currently abandoning the UK due to burdensome taxation which may also be about about to rise based on what I've been reading.

Thailand would do well to encourage these multi millionaires to move to Thailand but instead they're guaranteeing that none of them ever spend more than just a few months there.

[mania]

15 hours ago, Celsius said:

I just want to understand something crystal clear. If the law passes as described in the article, I have until March 2025 to leave without filing tax return?

 

I may be wrong but the law that has to do with that March 2025 law was already passed & in effect since Jan 1st 2024

 

So by right what they are saying is the Tax returns that are due March 2025 should include any taxes owed for inbound taxable monies sent into Thailand between Jan 1st 2024 & Dec 31st 2024

[mania]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

It's unfortunate that a small number of posters here are already filing Thai tax returns, and are giving the impression that it's no big deal for Bob in the village to file a tax return next year.

Well actually........I am not an accountant &  basically a "bob in the village" & it was very easy & profitable to file in my case. Because back in 2012-2016 the savings  interest rates in Thailand were good ...especially in 2013

 

That aside the reason to file was claim back the taxes they took from the savings when ever it went over 30k baht a year.

But foreigners could claim it all back as we are not Thai citizens

 

But yes we filed taxes claims/returns in those years very easily. They actually did most of the work themselves at the counter. I guess the getting of the Tax ID# was probably harder than actually filing. But even getting the number was a matter of an hour once sent to the right office. Once interest rates dropped we stopped yearly filing no problem.