Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/29/2024 at 12:34 PM, JohnnyBD said:

That's funny. Yes, many listings are never taken down. Agents use the old listings to get leads so they can show you other units. Also, you will see the same units listed by many agents & companies. 

If you saw a property listed on a website, and went and had a look at the building, and the area, maybe even spoke to a few residents in the car park, and then rang the agent about doing an inspection, only to be told "that is old listing, not for sale now, but can show you other place in different building" would you say "oh, great" or just say "no thank you" and hang up? 

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

what "adjustment" to my finances would prevent me to pay tax?   

Not an adjustment to your finances, as such, but an adjustment in the location of your residence for 6 months of the year may see you saving a reasonable amount of money. 

[chiang mai]

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Well, go ahead, put a percentage on it. 

 

I bet it still shows a massive oversupply, and they are still building more. 

 

You do know about supply and demand market forces, don't you? 

I know now that you don't understand how real estate agencies work in Thailand so there's no point in you and I discussing the subject.

[KhunHeineken]

21 hours ago, stat said:

Fully correct! When I was trying to rent I came up with about 20 houses from an agents website and only 2 were actually available. The agents put the houses up once and never ever check again if the house is still available 🙂

Are you suggesting, and based on your figures, with 1135 properties for sale in Phuket, on only one website, but I'll use that website for example purposes, 2 out of 20 is 10%.  That would mean 1135 x 10% = 135 properties that are actually for sale out of 1135, just on that one website.

 

I'm not saying the practice doesn't exist, but to that degree, I don't think so. 

[chiang mai]

23 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Ohhhh, he owns the structure, but he sure doesn't own the land it sits on.  A fine investment indeed. 

My wife owns, I don't anything, I don't need to.

[KhunHeineken]

21 hours ago, stat said:

One one would expect the real estate agent to be a professionalist that values customers time, but I know TiT, nevertheless I stick with a good or better then the rest real estate agent.

Going by you 10% figure, customers would be wasting the agent's time, so not point doing it to that degree. 

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

Here we are coming up on tax filing season. Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

I had though about printing every possible paper I can think of they might want and traveling to my local TRD office and say: "Ok I'm ready to file." and see what happens.

Did you ever consider they may have designed it so the only way to get a tax number is to go through an agent, of which the TRD staff take a commission?  Similar to those using an agent who do not have 800k in the bank for an extension. 

 

Maybe all of this is just another "tea money" revenue stream.  Who knows? 

 

We will have to wait and see. 

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Did you ever consider they may have designed it so the only way to get a tax number is to go through an agent, of which the TRD staff take a commission?  Similar to those using an agent who do not have 800k in the bank for an extension. 

 

Maybe all of this is just another "tea money" revenue stream.  Who knows? 

 

We will have to wait and see. 

Scaremongering again, just as you were before.

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, oldcpu said:

If you don't spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand, or if you have no Thai income AND you are not bringing foreign income into Thailand (which is possible if you are living off of income brought into Thailand before 31-Dec-2023 when you were NOT a Thai tax resident) - then in those cases they may initially deny you a Thai tax ID.

How many expats transferred enough money before 31/12/23 to live on for the rest of their life, given that one's end date is not know? 

 

Sure, some will cruise along on past transfers for a while, but for many, they will end up having to deal with Thai remittance tax in some way, shape or form. 

[JohnnyBD]

39 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

If you saw a property listed on a website, and went and had a look at the building, and the area, maybe even spoke to a few residents in the car park, and then rang the agent about doing an inspection, only to be told "that is old listing, not for sale now, but can show you other place in different building" would you say "oh, great" or just say "no thank you" and hang up?

I find it's better just to go into the onsite sales office rather than use the online real estate sites with freelance agents. That way it avoids having to pay an extra commission. 

[DrJack54]

Several posts removed .

@KhunHeineken you are baiting.

Stop

[anrcaccount]

On 12/29/2024 at 2:15 PM, oldcpu said:

 

With respect, if I understood correctly that small part of your post that I quoted, that is not accurate.  Yes many condos fall in value ( where I once read Thais prefer new condos).  However some also go up in value, especially if the condo CJPM and Committee work to maintain and even improve the condo. Asking ( and selling/buying ) prices in the condo complex in Phuket where I live are about 35% higher than what they were 6 years ago.

 

Fair call, but 35% return in 6 years isn't great, you'd have done a lot better parking in an SP500 fund. The point stands, that generally, Thai condos are a poor investment. 

 

Having said that, Khao Kad is a nice spot, great views, quiet, isolated...apart from the massive construction noise..... but anyway, each to their own.

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

11 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

Here we are coming up on tax filing season. Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

I had though about printing every possible paper I can think of they might want and traveling to my local TRD office and say: "Ok I'm ready to file." and see what happens.

 

Where art thou?  I walked into a TRD office on Ramkhamhaeng and got my TIN in under 30 minutes. 

 

You have a savings account,  You earn interest.  15% tax is withheld.  Next week, go to your bank and get a tax withholding statement for 2024.  March on over to the TRD and file a tax return in order to get the withholding tax refunded.

[NoDisplayName]

On 12/29/2024 at 8:05 PM, Ben Zioner said:

And would one achieve that? I earn and spend 3 to 4 million a year, what "adjustment" to my finances would prevent me to pay tax?   

 

Fortunately I have "adjusted" my visa situation.. Otherwise I'd just go.

 

You spend 250K-333K baht per month?

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

My wife owns, I don't anything, I don't need to.

And taking this information combined with the info you provided in the “who lives on less than 20k” thread, obviously you aren’t someone who will be paying any taxes but are ever so happy to talk about how we should all be paying taxes for….”the social fabric”.  
 

Whatever that means.

 

Taxes for thee but not for me is basically your mantra.

 

You stated that you already own your vehicles and toys and don’t need anything else.  
 

So of course you aren’t bringing anything into the economy or contributing in any way either via taxes or expenditures.

 

Perhaps, expats who have skirted the system and are living in their wives houses for free should be taxed on whatever the tax board would consider “Equivalent Rent”.

 

If property taxes are instated for foreigners….same thing.  Why should a foreigner live for free in a house purchased for their wife be exempted.   It’s almost as if there are multitudes of Thai wives who are harboring “tax fugitives”.  
 

Tax any property that has a rich foreigner living in it….even if owned by a Thai.

 

Greetings from Vietnam! 😘 

[jmd8800]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Where art thou?  I walked into a TRD office on Ramkhamhaeng and got my TIN in under 30 minutes. 

 

You have a savings account,  You earn interest.  15% tax is withheld.  Next week, go to your bank and get a tax withholding statement for 2024.  March on over to the TRD and file a tax return in order to get the withholding tax refunded.

Thanks... I hadn't thought of that.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, Airalee said:

And taking this information combined with the info you provided in the “who lives on less than 20k” thread, obviously you aren’t someone who will be paying any taxes but are ever so happy to talk about how we should all be paying taxes for….”the social fabric”.  
 

Whatever that means.

 

Taxes for thee but not for me is basically your mantra.

 

You stated that you already own your vehicles and toys and don’t need anything else.  
 

So of course you aren’t bringing anything into the economy or contributing in any way either via taxes or expenditures.

 

Perhaps, expats who have skirted the system and are living in their wives houses for free should be taxed on whatever the tax board would consider “Equivalent Rent”.

 

If property taxes are instated for foreigners….same thing.  Why should a foreigner live for free in a house purchased for their wife be exempted.   It’s almost as if there are multitudes of Thai wives who are harboring “tax fugitives”.  
 

Tax any property that has a rich foreigner living in it….even if owned by a Thai.

 

Greetings from Vietnam! 😘 

What a bizzare post! What would you like me to do, apologise for being so old that I no longer earn large sums of money that warrant me paying tax? Or perhaps you'd like me to apologise for having used my savings to provide for my wife having bought her a house that I now live in rent free? Or perhaps you want me to apologise for having enough income to live on but not enough to pay tax, because the Thai TEDA is so generous to older people?  Or should I apologise for trying to help others understand Thai tax, because I used to work in finance and understand tax? 

 

Well, whatever it is you want to apologise for, I'm sorry that I have done those things that seem to have upset you. My promise to you in the new year is that I will try harder to find ways to pay more tax........there, happy now? 

[Ben Zioner]

9 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You spend 250K-333K baht per month?

Yes

[oldcpu]

13 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

How many expats transferred enough money before 31/12/23 to live on for the rest of their life, given that one's end date is not know? 

 

Sure, some will cruise along on past transfers for a while, but for many, they will end up having to deal with Thai remittance tax in some way, shape or form. 

 

I think we are in agreement that most expats in Thailand don't plan to live off of savings pre-deposited in Thailand for the remainder of their lives.  That was never the point of my post.

 

However, the POINT is that for the next few years, those that have the luxury of living off of such savings for just a few years (with savings already pre-positioned in Thailand) can "sit back" and observe how the tax situation in Thailand evolves, before rushing to any decisions in regards to their tax management approach. Since they have no Thai sourced income, and since they are not bringing money into Thailand (for next few years),  they can legally not file a Thai tax return at present time, and do not need to apply for a Thai tax ID at present time.  I state that based on what I was specifically advised by a Phuket based Thai RD official.

 

Further, I note, with Paw.161, any foreign sourced income prior to 1-Jan-2024 and any foreign savings PRIOR to 1-Jan-2024, can be brought into Thailand tax free.

 

After a few more years (possibly less), I suspect there should be more agreement as to the income tax filing requirements for each expat's different situation.

 

So to re-iterate the POINT is those with such luxury of in-Thailand savings can wait, until the situation is more clear.

 

Sadly, I suspect that the expats who may be the most affected in Thailand by taxation changes could be those who don't qualify for an LTR visa where they mostly live from foreign sourced 'pay check to pay check' (or foreign pension payment to pension payment) if such money exceeds some certain relatively low level TBD amount of money (but less than LTR visa criteria), AND if their foreign income is not already "protected" by a DTA with the specific source country of the foreign 'pension'/'paycheck'/'investments'.  

 

As previously noted elsewhere by others, those expats in the higher income bracket likely have different ways at their disposal to minimize any tax impact on them.

 

It likely behooves each expat in Thailand to look at their own financial situation and assess the impact (if any) on themselves.

[jayboy]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I think we are in agreement that most expats in Thailand don't plan to live off of savings pre-deposited in Thailand for the remainder of their lives.

 

 

It's my understanding that savings ( incurred before 31.12.2023) do not need to be "pre-deposited." In other words such funding can be remitted at any time if they meet the criteria. I think you confirm that later in your post.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

 

It's my understanding that savings ( incurred before 31.12.2023) do not need to be "pre-deposited." In other words such funding can be remitted at any time if they meet the criteria.Agreed?

 

That's also my understanding from PAW.161.  The money can be outside of Thailand before 01.01.2024, brought in, and not be taxable.

 

However these Thai RD tax interpretations are relatively new, and given "This Is Thailand" those expats who are very conservative AND who also have the luxury (of money already in Thailand) can wait a few years and see what transpires in practice in regards to the need to not only not pay tax but also any need (or no need) to file a tax return to Thaliand.

[oldcpu]

12 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Fair call, but 35% return in 6 years isn't great, you'd have done a lot better parking in an SP500 fund. The point stands, that generally, Thai condos are a poor investment. 

 

No dispute there from me ...

 

The post thou was in response to a claim by someone who stated there was "NO RESALE" value from a foreign owned condo.   My view on that is that one may end up with much less money (from their condo) when selling, or they may end up with some more (above purchase price) when selling, but they will have some money.  "NO RESALE VALUE" is inaccurate (if not accompanied by a clarification that they are referring to 'profit').

 

One point to note re:real estate where I live in Phuket, is when COVID hit, rental prices dropped in the area where I lived by about 50%.  COVID is over now, and rental prices have more than doubled since the COVID days ... even tripled in some cases,

 

So I believe when assessing the low (or no or loss) return from owning, one also has to consider:

(1) potential for escalating rental costs, and
(2) a bit more (albeit maybe not much more) freedom to modify one's place as an owner, as opposed to just being a tenant.

 

12 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Having said that, Khao Kad is a nice spot, great views, quiet, isolated...apart from the massive construction noise..... but anyway, each to their own.

 

 

Yes - there is a LOT of construction going on in KhaoKhad (in far south of Phuket) at present, and I suspect such will continue for next few years.

 

The places being built are very upmarket, with what I view as insanely high (far far too high) prices for both buyers and renters.  Such new luxury places is IMHO one of the factors for the recent price increases for sales (and rentals) of condo units in the complex where I live.  Of course the CJPM/Committee being committed to improving the condo is also another factor.  I know of another condo complex close to Cape Panwa area where value of condo units has dramatically dropped as the condo complex has fallen a bit into disrepair.

 

As you note, I do like the Khao Khad views, and relative isolation from the heavy traffic areas of Phuket.

.

[offset]

I am a little confused to what is going to be taxable in Thailand

 

Is it money brought into Thailand or only taxable income in the UK

 

And any interest received on savings from before 2023 is not viewed as taxable in Thailand

[chiang mai]

23 minutes ago, offset said:

I am a little confused to what is going to be taxable in Thailand

 

Is it money brought into Thailand or only taxable income in the UK

 

And any interest received on savings from before 2023 is not viewed as taxable in Thailand

No a little, a whole bunch!

 

Suggest you read the introduction to Thai tax.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, offset said:

I am a little confused to what is going to be taxable in Thailand

 

Is it money brought into Thailand or only taxable income in the UK

 

And any interest received on savings from before 2023 is not viewed as taxable in Thailand

 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes

For you, living in Thailand will become more expensive.  Note I said more expensive, not unaffordable. 

 

If you begrudge giving the Thai government money for nothing, you are a prime candidate for definitely considering doing 179 days in Thailand and the rest of year somewhere else. 

[Ben Zioner]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

For you, living in Thailand will become more expensive.  Note I said more expensive, not unaffordable. 

 

If you begrudge giving the Thai government money for nothing, you are a prime candidate for definitely considering doing 179 days in Thailand and the rest of year somewhere else. 

Yes, but LTR [visa] so far...

[offset]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

No a little, a whole bunch!

 

Suggest you read the introduction to Thai tax.

I thought a simple question might get a simple answer

[chiang mai]

48 minutes ago, offset said:

I thought a simple question might get a simple answer

Unfortunately, the answer is not simple and involves a number of factors. There's no simple yes or no in this so rather than give you only a partial answer that would only lead to further questions, I suggest reading the tax guide..

[stat]

On 12/30/2024 at 4:42 AM, oldcpu said:

 

One way to get a tax-ID is to apply online.  That online application will go to Bangkok, and they will likely forward the application to your local provincial (?) Revenue Department, who might end up calling you.  Likely they will want from you your source of income.  If your income is from outside of Thailand they will likely want to know if you have/are bringing the income into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, ... AND very important they will want confirmation you spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand.

 

If you don't spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand, or if you have no Thai income AND you are not bringing foreign income into Thailand (which is possible if you are living off of income brought into Thailand before 31-Dec-2023 when you were NOT a Thai tax resident) - then in those cases they may initially deny you a Thai tax ID.

 

That's what happened to me.

 

However if you insist that you need the tax-ID (say to recover some withholding  tax on Thai bank accounts, or be because you plan to bring money into Thailand soon) then they may give you a Tax-ID.

 

My having typed that I think your next point very salient:

 

 

 That should work IMHO.  You may end up spending some time thou, at the local TRD, while they try to figure out what to do with you.

 

Best wishes and luck on this.

How did you apply online? I am still hoping that I could get an online Thai Tax ID while not being in Thailand currently. I need the Tax Id for 2022 in order to get a thai tax certificate. One agent ripped me off and I still hope I can avoid another 10K for a Thai Tax ID. I need to get one in 2025 as the option to file for taxes run out in Thailand IMHO in 2025 and in Germany as well in 2025. Thanks!