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Posted
34 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Factually incorrect,

A primitive arrowhead wouldn't be able to penetrate a whalebone corset, let alone come out the other side.

I had to ask! :biggrin:

Could a Lakota arrow in the late 1800's penetrate a whale bone corset and go right through a body?
 
 
To determine whether a Lakota arrow in the late 1800s could penetrate a whalebone corset and pass through a human body, we need to consider the materials, construction, and context of both the arrow and the corset, as well as the physics of arrow penetration and human anatomy. Here’s a detailed analysis: Lakota Arrows in the Late 1800s
  • Construction: Lakota arrows were typically crafted with wooden shafts, fletched with feathers, and tipped with points made of stone (e.g., flint or obsidian), bone, or, by the late 1800s, metal (often traded or scavenged iron or steel). Metal arrowheads, such as those made from barrel hoops or knife blades, became more common due to contact with European settlers.
  • Force and Penetration: Lakota bows, often sinew-backed short recurve bows, were powerful, with draw weights estimated between 40-70 pounds, capable of propelling arrows at high velocities (100-150 fps or more). A well-crafted metal-tipped arrow could penetrate deeply into soft tissue, and even bone, depending on range, angle, and arrowhead design. Historical accounts of Plains Indian archery, such as those from the Battle of Little Bighorn (1876), describe arrows penetrating deeply into horses or humans, sometimes causing fatal wounds.
  • Arrowhead Design: Metal arrowheads were often narrow and sharp, designed for deep penetration to target vital organs. Stone arrowheads, while effective, were less consistent against hard materials but could still inflict severe wounds.
Whalebone Corsets in the Late 1800s
  • Material: "Whalebone" in corsets refers to baleen, a flexible, keratin-based material from the mouths of baleen whales, not skeletal bone. Baleen is tough, lightweight, and pliable when heated by the body, molding to the wearer’s shape. By the late 1800s, many corsets began transitioning to steel boning, but baleen was still used, especially in higher-end or older garments.
     
     
    Construction: Corsets were typically made of cotton, linen, or silk, with baleen or steel stays (strips) sewn into channels to provide structure. A typical corset had 20-50 stays, with a central busk (a rigid strip of baleen, wood, or metal) running down the front, ranging from 10-16 inches long. The busk and stays were designed to shape the torso, not to act as armor, and were relatively thin (1-2 mm for baleen). Some corsets were tight-laced, compressing the waist, but this was not universal.
  •  
     
     
     
    Protective Capacity: Baleen is flexible and softer than bone or metal, offering minimal resistance to sharp, high-velocity projectiles. While it could absorb some impact, it was not designed to stop weapons. Steel boning, if present, might deflect or slow an arrow slightly, but only if struck directly, and steel stays were narrow and spaced apart, leaving gaps.
Penetration Analysis
  • Arrow vs. Baleen: A Lakota arrow with a metal or sharp stone tip, shot from a powerful bow at close range (e.g., 20-50 yards), would likely penetrate baleen with ease. Baleen’s pliability and thinness (comparable to modern plastic strips) would offer little resistance to a sharp, high-velocity arrowhead. Even stone arrowheads, while less effective against hard surfaces, could likely pierce baleen due to its softness compared to bone or metal.
  • Corset as a Barrier: The corset’s fabric layers (cotton or silk) and baleen stays might slightly slow an arrow, but not enough to prevent penetration. Historical accounts of arrows piercing multiple layers of clothing (e.g., buffalo hides or soldier uniforms) suggest that a corset’s thin fabric and spaced stays would not significantly impede a well-aimed arrow. If the arrow struck the busk directly, a metal busk might deflect it, but baleen or wood would likely split or shatter.
  • Through the Body: Whether an arrow could pass completely through a human body depends on several factors:
    • Human Anatomy: The human torso contains soft tissue (muscles, organs), ribs, and the spine. An arrow with sufficient force could penetrate soft tissue and exit the body, especially if it avoided bone. Historical records of Plains Indian warfare describe arrows passing through bodies, particularly at close range with metal tips.
    • Arrow Momentum: A metal-tipped arrow from a 50-70 pound bow at close range could retain enough energy after piercing a corset to pass through a torso, especially if it entered a soft area like the abdomen or chest and missed major bones. However, hitting a rib or the spine could stop or deflect the arrow, reducing the likelihood of a clean pass-through.
    • Corset’s Effect: The corset’s compression of the torso might slightly alter the arrow’s path by compacting tissue, but this would not significantly reduce penetration. Tight-lacing could make the torso denser, but baleen itself would not add substantial resistance.
Historical Context
  • Lakota Warfare: The Lakota were skilled archers, and their arrows were designed to kill or incapacitate enemies, often targeting vital areas. While there are no specific accounts of Lakota arrows striking whalebone corsets, accounts from the late 1800s (e.g., Wounded Knee or earlier battles) show arrows causing lethal wounds through clothing and flesh.
  • Corsets in the West: In the late 1800s, corsets were common among Euro-American women, including settlers in the American West. However, Lakota encounters with corset-wearing women would have been rare, as corsets were less practical for frontier life, and most Lakota conflicts involved soldiers or male settlers. If a woman wearing a corset were struck, the corset would likely offer negligible protection.
Conclusion A Lakota arrow in the late 1800s, particularly with a metal tip, could almost certainly penetrate a whalebone (baleen) corset due to baleen’s relative softness and the corset’s thin, spaced construction. Whether the arrow would pass completely through a human body depends on the shot’s range, angle, and whether it struck bone. At close range with a metal-tipped arrow, penetration through the corset and body is plausible, especially if the arrow hit soft tissue. However, complete pass-through might be less likely if the arrow hit ribs or the spine, though it would still cause severe injury. There’s no historical evidence of corsets being tested against arrows, but their design suggests minimal protective value against such a weapon.

 

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Thailand said:

There’s no historical evidence of corsets being tested against arrows, but their design suggests minimal protective value against such a weapon.

You forgot to consider if it was a hunting arrow (vertical head) or a war arrow (horizontal head)!

Posted
1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

You forgot to consider if it was a hunting arrow (vertical head) or a war arrow (horizontal head)!

  • Hunting Arrow (Vertical/Broad Head): A Lakota hunting arrow could penetrate a whalebone corset due to baleen’s softness but might lose some energy due to its broader head catching on fabric or stays. It could still pass through a body if it hits soft tissue and avoids bone, but complete pass-through is less likely than with a war arrow, especially if it strikes ribs or the spine.
  • War Arrow (Horizontal/Narrow Head): A war arrow, particularly with a metal tip, is highly likely to penetrate a corset and pass through a body at close range. Its narrow, streamlined design is optimized for deep penetration, slipping through baleen, fabric, and soft tissue, and potentially exiting the body if it misses major bones.
In summary, a metal-tipped war arrow has a higher chance of penetrating a whalebone corset and passing through a body than a hunting arrow, due to its narrow, piercing design. Both could breach the corset, but the war arrow’s combat-optimized head makes it more effective for complete pass-through. No specific historical accounts document Lakota arrows vs. corsets, but their performance against similar barriers supports these conclusions.
 
 
Posted
5 minutes ago, Thailand said:

 

  • Hunting Arrow (Vertical/Broad Head): A Lakota hunting arrow could penetrate a whalebone corset due to baleen’s softness but might lose some energy due to its broader head catching on fabric or stays. It could still pass through a body if it hits soft tissue and avoids bone, but complete pass-through is less likely than with a war arrow, especially if it strikes ribs or the spine.
  • War Arrow (Horizontal/Narrow Head): A war arrow, particularly with a metal tip, is highly likely to penetrate a corset and pass through a body at close range. Its narrow, streamlined design is optimized for deep penetration, slipping through baleen, fabric, and soft tissue, and potentially exiting the body if it misses major bones.
In summary, a metal-tipped war arrow has a higher chance of penetrating a whalebone corset and passing through a body than a hunting arrow, due to its narrow, piercing design. Both could breach the corset, but the war arrow’s combat-optimized head makes it more effective for complete pass-through. No specific historical accounts document Lakota arrows vs. corsets, but their performance against similar barriers supports these conclusions.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I've shot quite a few deer with a compound, recurve and crossbow, and many were shot through the chest, right through ribs. The crossbow is so fast it's through the deer both sides, cracking ribs along the way. This is with a metal arrowhead. Back in Lakota time they used stone for arrowheads, which is very hard and could penetrate if the bow was a longbow in high poundage. 

Posted
3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I've shot quite a few deer with a compound, recurve and crossbow, and many were shot through the chest, right through ribs. The crossbow is so fast it's through the deer both sides, cracking ribs along the way. This is with a metal arrowhead. Back in Lakota time they used stone for arrowheads, which is very hard and could penetrate if the bow was a longbow in high poundage. 

I think the friction of a stone tip would slow it down, unless it was highly polished

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think the friction of a stone tip would slow it down, unless it was highly polished

It all depends on if the arrowhead's tip is hard, sharp,  and the speed of the arrow. 

Posted

The Thursday Murder Club...Crime / 30 independent cinema's 22/8 - Netflix 28/08 

This comes from Richard Osmans book which had been voted the best novel for the last five years.

Great cast 

 

Blurb----Based on Richard Osman's international bestselling novel of the same name, THE THURSDAY MURDER CLUB follows four irrepressible retirees - Elizabeth (Helen Mirren), Ron (Pierce Brosnan), Ibrahim (Ben Kingsley) and Joyce (Celia Imrie) - who spend their time solving cold case murders for fun. When an unexplained death occurs on their own doorstep, their casual sleuthing takes a thrilling turn as they find themselves with a real whodunit on their hands. Directed by Chris Columbus, the film is the latest to be produced through the Netflix and Amblin Entertainment partnership.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Hunting the Yorkshire Ripper ( 2 part mini series 

 

This short mini series is interesting in that it gives a quick rundown of the actual murders and locations then concentrates on the cassette tape and letters from the purported Ripper who became known as Wearside Jack.

 

Taken from the perspective of a young bobby who’s early career was spent investigating the Ripper murders to when he achieved a promotion decided to reopen the investigation into the hoax tapes and letters, leading to the discovery of the identity of Wearside Jack.

 

While there have been many documentaries about Sutcliffe, the killings and the police investigation two major points still antagonise the general public.

1) Why after interviewing Sutcliffe nine times were the police unable to arrest him ( a fortunate arrest due to stolen number plates eventually led to his downfall ). ?

2) Why did the ageing “Coppers “ in charge put so much faith in Wearside Jack and move the investigation from West Yorkshire to Sunderland ( possibly allowing 3 more murders in W Yorks ) when all surviving victims stated clearly that the person that attacked them had a Yorkshire accent ?

 

A new mini series, couldn’t find anything on IMDb, which I recommend.

Posted
18 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Factually incorrect,

A primitive arrowhead wouldn't be able to penetrate a whalebone corset, let alone come out the other side.

I gave up after that opening scene.

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Posted
8 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Started to watch first episode last night but as soon as I saw another white woman married to a black guy I stopped, sick of having that pushed down my throat. 

All good power roles are women, men (white especially) will be evil, and enter the gay / lesbian and handicapped characters shortly.

 

You want be watching much this century :coffee1:

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Posted
15 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Started to watch first episode last night but as soon as I saw another white woman married to a black guy I stopped, sick of having that pushed down my throat. 

Unfortunately that`s how it is these days..........:whistling:

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Posted
1 hour ago, giddyup said:

Started to watch first episode last night but as soon as I saw another white woman married to a black guy I stopped, sick of having that pushed down my throat. 

 

They seem to have an Asian daughter as well..... 

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"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!"

Arnold Judas Rimmer of Jupiter Mining Corporation Ship Red Dwarf

Posted
1 hour ago, Thailand said:

Currently in the middle of "Hostage" which is quite watchable although some of the details may be factually incorrect that does not detract.

 

I enjoyed it: A lot.

 

But the placement of 'people of colour'- or whatever the correct word is, was just too obvious.

 

I think Vivienne Toussaint's stepson organised the kidnap. 

 

And what they're doing together...a bit unlikely...

 

 

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Posted

Re watching Fallout again, luckily I must have dementia so forgot I watched it last year, black hero naturally. Series 2 in Dec. Waiting for the rest of Wednesday 2. Adams family is rubbish, but little Jenna Ortaga is outstanding as Wednesday, worth watching just for her.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Rimmer said:

 

They seem to have an Asian daughter as well..... 

I guess if the new James Bond is a black gay woman it may cause a stir!

Posted
2 hours ago, proton said:

Re watching Fallout again, luckily I must have dementia so forgot I watched it last year, black hero naturally. Series 2 in Dec. Waiting for the rest of Wednesday 2. Adams family is rubbish, but little Jenna Ortaga is outstanding as Wednesday, worth watching just for her.

 

Absolutely agree, Jenna Ortaga is terrific in this series, don't be mistaken its not a children thing, its a good proper story with lots of twists.

Wednesday

 

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"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!"

Arnold Judas Rimmer of Jupiter Mining Corporation Ship Red Dwarf

Posted
21 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

The Thursday Murder Club...Crime / 30 independent cinema's 22/8 - Netflix 28/08 

This comes from Richard Osmans book which had been voted the best novel for the last five years.

Great cast 

 

Blurb----Based on Richard Osman's international bestselling novel of the same name, THE THURSDAY MURDER CLUB follows four irrepressible retirees - Elizabeth (Helen Mirren), Ron (Pierce Brosnan), Ibrahim (Ben Kingsley) and Joyce (Celia Imrie) - who spend their time solving cold case murders for fun. When an unexplained death occurs on their own doorstep, their casual sleuthing takes a thrilling turn as they find themselves with a real whodunit on their hands. Directed by Chris Columbus, the film is the latest to be produced through the Netflix and Amblin Entertainment partnership.

 

 

 

 

 

Liked the book a lot; hoped the adaption would be a mini-series rather than a movie but will check it out.  Looks like a good cast--Mirren and Brosnan were great in Mobland.  

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Posted
23 minutes ago, newnative said:

Liked the book a lot; hoped the adaption would be a mini-series rather than a movie but will check it out.  Looks like a good cast--Mirren and Brosnan were great in Mobland.  


If it does well could be a big thing for Richard Osman with other movies to follow possibly .

Bought his other two books ( The man who died twice, The bullet that missed ) here in Thailand for 70 and 50 baht, still searching for The Thursday murder Club.

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Posted
On 8/22/2025 at 9:51 PM, xylophone said:

A friend had recommended a movie/doco called, "Unbreakable. The Jelena Dokich Story" and suggested that I watch it because I had played a warmup match against Jelena Dokich in a tennis tournament at the Auckland tennis Centre, arranged between her and Steffi Graf.


She was very gentle with me in the warmup match and was an absolute delight to speak to and play against, as was Steffi Graf. It was a pity I couldn't say the same about Anna Kournicova a year or so later.

 

Jelena lost the match against Steffi Graf, but then again it was only an exhibition match, however the two women players really did put on a great performance for the watching crowd, me included.

 

It's well worth watching if you are into tennis and wanted to know a bit more about Jelena Dokich and her history in tennis and with her abusive father/coach.

 

A couple of pics of yours truly with both of those fabulous tennis players.

 

 

image.jpeg.e5434351839b70b6ebe0df504ee7365a.jpegimage.jpeg.1d0e4c0abf91ca09b4f566f204ce2166.jpeg

 

 

 


 

I downloaded and watched a movie I hadn't seen before, or at least I thought I hadn't, called, "Ad Astra" starring Brad Pitt and Tommy Lee Jones and it was different in many respects, and very slow and was supposedly thought provoking?

 

Also thank you to the two posters who gave my post (and pics) about Jelena Dokic the "thumbs up" emoji, and not quite sure why the two sad sacks gave my post the "laughing" emoji, but then again jealousy probably reared its ugly head.

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Posted
5 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:


If it does well could be a big thing for Richard Osman with other movies to follow possibly .

Bought his other two books ( The man who died twice, The bullet that missed ) here in Thailand for 70 and 50 baht, still searching for The Thursday murder Club.

Yes, hope they are all given the movie treatment.  

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