Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

28 minutes ago, potless said:

One of the questions that caught my eye. "If foreign sourced income is remitted into a foreign currency account in Thailand, then at a later date transferred into a Baht account, is the exchange rate to be used for income calculation the TT rate on the initial transfer date, or the second transfer date?" 

 

The answer given was "It is calculated on the date it arrives in Thailand (the initial date it arrives in your account); the currency is irrelevant, it is the date the funds are remitted and received in Thailand"

 

I asked that question in December in Mike Listers main forum and the regular poster CHIANG MAI felt that it only became assessable when converted to Thai Baht. There is obviously a significant difference between the two scenarios. 

 

 

 

My view is the answer in Mike Lister's main forum and that of the regular poster Chiang Mai was suspect, and I prefer the answer provided on the official Thai Revenue Department tax help line.

 

But I am no tax expert.  I have no Government documentation sources to back up my view.  It would not surprise me if this boils down to the Revenue Department Ministerial interpretation.

[topt]

40 minutes ago, potless said:

The answer given was "It is calculated on the date it arrives in Thailand (the initial date it arrives in your account); the currency is irrelevant, it is the date the funds are remitted and received in Thailand"

Personally that is what I believe is correct.

10 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My view is the answer in Mike Lister's main forum and that of the regular poster Chiang Mai was suspect, a

Agreed.

[potless]

4 minutes ago, topt said:

Personally that is what I believe is correct.

I remember that you stated that in a reply to my question in December. It makes sense. I still seek clarification on the exchange rate used if anyone knows. 

[potless]

21 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My view is the answer in Mike Lister's main forum and that of the regular poster Chiang Mai was suspect, and I prefer the answer provided on the official Thai Revenue Department tax help line.

Thanks for your reply. Does the T.R.D. have an option to speak to someone in English? All I got was a long winded message in Thai language.

[oldcpu]

Just now, potless said:

Thanks for your reply. Does the T.R.D. have an option to speak to someone in English? All I got was a long winded message in Thai language.

I don't know, my Thai wife is my interpreter. I am fortunate her English  excellent, she has an MBA and a masters in engineering ( from a German university) so these financial aspects are not complex to her. She does thou need to be briefed prior as to what I need to find out.

[Misty]

19 hours ago, DrPhibes said:

Yes, there is a 2 way exchange of information.  For the US, they report the information of Thai residents that hold US accounts to the Thai gov.  For the Thai side, they report the account information for US residents to the US gov.  The US does not report information of accounts held in the US by US citizens to the Thai authorities.  That is tier 1 FATCA reporting.

 

That would be good to know, if true. Could you provide a reference from the agreement saying Thai residents who are also US citizens are exempt from US information sharing?

 

The Thailand-US IGA is a Model 1 agreement. 

 

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act

[roobaa01]

Gday

Donald trump just took the us out of

OECD dies it mean now tax matters are going back for us citizens in Thailand to the old AMI treaty?

 

I figured out the following general threshold when married on pension older than 65

 

THB 190000

THB 120000

THB 150000

Total THB 460 k if I stay below that no tax hence why bother to file a return?

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

 

 

[garygooner]

9 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

Total THB 460 k if I stay below that no tax hence why bother to file a return?

 

That's one of the main questions yet to be clear. Some say you need to file as it's above the threshold of 60k, 120k etc, even if you don't owe tax due to allowances. 

[redwood1]

Trump’s withdraw from corporate tax agreement  OECD global tax treaty threatens global tax cooperation...

 

I guess The USA for sure will not be sharing anyones tax info with Thailand now....

 

The OECD  is on its Azz and could fall apart at any time.....

 

And the USA is not the only country on the verge of scraping or who have partially scrap the OECD....

[roberterik]

Question about a topic I did not find in all contributions.

I pay all tax on my pensions in the Nethelands, my home country.

Tax office want to see my documents about paid tax in English. 

Tax office even talks about verified documents.

Dutch tax office only provide Dutch language tax bill, and no proof of payments.

Embassy does not verify any tax document, as far as I found out.

How are you guys handling these things?

 

 

 

[anchadian]

14 minutes ago, roberterik said:

Question about a topic I did not find in all contributions.

I pay all tax on my pensions in the Nethelands, my home country.

Tax office want to see my documents about paid tax in English. 

Tax office even talks about verified documents.

Dutch tax office only provide Dutch language tax bill, and no proof of payments.

Embassy does not verify any tax document, as far as I found out.

How are you guys handling these things?

 

 

 

Can you not scan your tax bill and save to pictures and have google translate the image(s) to the English language?

 

As far as having the translated version verified, that's a different matter.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday

Donald trump just took the us out of

OECD dies it mean now tax matters are going back for us citizens in Thailand to the old AMI treaty?

 

I figured out the following general threshold when married on pension older than 65

 

THB 190000

THB 120000

THB 150000

Total THB 460 k if I stay below that no tax hence why bother to file a return?

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first question I'd ask is: is your pension income remitted to Thailand assessable in Thailand? For which you need to refer to your country's DTA with Thailand. If you have no assessable income, or your assessable income is less then 60,000 (120,000 if married and filing jointly) then you are not required to file.

 

Otherwise, you are, and there is a small fine (I have heard something like 2000 baht) for not filing though  this seems not  widely enforced.

 

However, if you are not going to owe any tax, and if your pension income (or a portion thereof) is assessable, then I see not disadvantge to filing and indeed some advantage in terms of having proof of filing.

 

 

[Sheryl]

21 minutes ago, roberterik said:

Question about a topic I did not find in all contributions.

I pay all tax on my pensions in the Nethelands, my home country.

Tax office want to see my documents about paid tax in English. 

Tax office even talks about verified documents.

Dutch tax office only provide Dutch language tax bill, and no proof of payments.

Embassy does not verify any tax document, as far as I found out.

How are you guys handling these things?

 

 

 

First of all - under the Netherlands - Thai DTA, is this pension income assessable in Thailand? If not, you do nto need to file at all unless you have other assessable income, in which case file declaring only that.

 

I find it hard to believe you can't get any sort of receipt from the Dutch government for taxes paid.  As far as the issue of documents being in Dutch, IF you have more than 60,000 baht in assessable pension income (120k if married), can get a translation to Thai  done by a translation company and certified by the ministry of Foreign Affairs. See the 4th post in this thread  https://aseannow.com/topic/1209432-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-translation-guarantee/ for the process.

 

Alternatively can get a private translations service to translate to English and stamp it, that might be what the RD really means when they say  "verified", translation services affix a stamp to the translations they do.

 

 

 

 

[DrPhibes]

5 hours ago, Misty said:

 

That would be good to know, if true. Could you provide a reference from the agreement saying Thai residents who are also US citizens are exempt from US information sharing?

 

The Thailand-US IGA is a Model 1 agreement. 

 

https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act

If you open a bank account using your Thai ID in the US, that US institution will report your info to the Thai gov.  If you opened an account in your US passport in Thailand, that Thai institution will report your account to the US.  They don't make any kind designation as to residency for you.

[Misty]

13 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

If you open a bank account using your Thai ID in the US, that US institution will report your info to the Thai gov.  If you opened an account in your US passport in Thailand, that Thai institution will report your account to the US.  They don't make any kind designation as to residency for you.

 

are you saying "how will they know"

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, roberterik said:

Question about a topic I did not find in all contributions.

I pay all tax on my pensions in the Nethelands, my home country.

Tax office want to see my documents about paid tax in English. 

Tax office even talks about verified documents.

Dutch tax office only provide Dutch language tax bill, and no proof of payments.

Embassy does not verify any tax document, as far as I found out.

 

 

You can find the double tax agreements here : 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

 

The Thai-Netherlands one has been around since 1976.  The DTAs tend to be a bit confusing, as they say one thing, and the add qualifications using the words "not with standing".

 

Article-18 of the Thai-Netherlands DTA notes :

Quote

 

Article-18

1.  Subject to provisions of paragraph 2 of this Article (18) and para-1 of Article-19, pensions and other similar remunderation paid in consideration of past employment to a resident of one the States (ie Thailand) and any annuity paid to such a resident (ie of Thailand), shall be taxable only in that State (ie Thailand).

 

2.  However, such income may also be taxed in the other state (ie Netherlands) in as far as it is charged as such against profits derived in that other State (ie Netherlands) by an enterprise that other State (Netherlands) or by an enterprise having a permanent establishment therein.

 

and para-1 of article-19 states:

Quote

 

Article-19.  GOVERNMENTAL FUNCTIONS:
1. Remuneration, including penions, paid by, or out of funds created by, one of the States (Netherlands) or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services rendered to that State or subdivision thereof in the discharge of function of a government nature "may" be taxed in that State (Netherlands).

2. However, the provisions of Articles .... and 18 shall apply to remuneration or pensions in respect of services rendered in connection with any trade or business arried on by one of its States (Netherlands) or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof.

 

 

I am no tax advisor. I find such wording confusing.  My interpretation is

(a) if you have a Netherlands civil service or military pension, it "may" be taxed in the Netherlands, and Thailand may also tax it.  And

(b) if you have another (not civil service nor military pension) from a Netherlands company for work in the Netherlands, then it can ONLY be taxed in Thailand (and not in the Netherlands) - as long as you don't use it as some sort of deduction in Netherlands tax return.  And

(c) if  have another (not civil service nor military pension) from a Netherlands company for work outside of the Netherlands - then ... its fuzy to me, but I believe that means both Netherlands and Thailand may tax such.

 

Of course in the case of (b) (ie article-18(1)) above, Netherlands should not tax such.  But for Netherlands not to tax that pension, you need to tell the Netherlands your residence is Thailand.  Else they will want tax money from you obtain in the Netherlands.

 

Likely, dependent on your pensions, if you remit your pension income in the year of earnings into Thailand or anytime having earned after 1-Jan-2024, you will need to file both Thai and Netherlands tax returns, if you remitted income is above the threshold noted.  In cases where Netherlands has already taxed you, then you need to apply a tax credit to not pay twice.

 

I don't know the details. Typically the country of residency gets 1st dibs on one's pension in cases where both can tax - so you will need to sort the details there.

 

And reference any documents not in English or Thai, if they are needed by Revenue Thailand, you will need to have translated to English or Thai , possibly via an official translation service? < unsure > I don't know there if google translation is acceptable.

 

I may have that wrong - that DTA was much different from others I have looked at so I could have made an error - others please chime in and correct me if wrong. I am no tax advisor - so lets be clear on that.  I am only an interested bystander hoping to help through this legalize maze.

 

[puck2]

There is a DTA (double Tay Agreement) between Thailand and Germany. If you want to read it:

https://doppelbesteuerung.eu/normen-dba/thailand/

 

In general: normal (public) Rents and pensions are here in TH tax free.

[roberterik]

Global Moderator and oldcpu, thanks for your replies. Looks like only option to satisfy tax office to translate Dutch to English (or Thai) by ferified translation service.

Any experience from other Dutch fellows I would like to hear.