Just now, sidjameson said:

Great. Who wrote it?

 

If you are an Old-Hand you would know. 555. 😇Give it time to simmer. Would have been in Trink's Column. So an Old-Hand will be along soon.

- Hardly a driver / Is now alive / Who passed / On hills / At 75

- Drives when he's been drinking depends on you to do his thinking.

9 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I speak Thai with reasonable proficiency, not fluent. I understand about 50% of what is spoken to me.

 

I retired here at age 65. It's much more difficult to learn a new language at that sort of age.

People use age too much as a language acquisition barrier. Adults can certainly learn new languages to a high degree of proficiency and reap significant cognitive benefits. The evidence consistently suggests that achieving native-like mastery, particularly in pronunciation and subtle grammatical nuances, becomes progressively more difficult after early childhood. This is largely attributed to changes in brain plasticity and the entrenchment of the first language's neural pathways.

 this of course does not apply to expats of any age (unless they are under 16.

8 hours ago, DeaconJohn said:

Speaking the lingo has got to be #1.

If not, you're dealing with sensory deprivations akin to being deaf and dumb - you just don't know what is going on around you.

Some people seem to be born with an aptitude for learning languages.

I wasn't, but I overcame it to learn Thai because I didn't want my wife and our two daughters to see me as an illiterate who couldn't speak the language.

A close second would be a good marriage into a decent family.

Thais take care of their own, and that would include a farang who has lived among them for many years as a husband and father.

Family means everything here.

Your position in the family defines who you are.

Without one you are nobody.

Farang tao-nahn eng.

Most expats come here too late in life.

Too late to learn the language and attain some degree of literacy.

Too late to attract anything better than a mercenary woman and become a cash cow for her greedy relatives.

Living among low-life Thais in some cesspool like Sleaze-by-the-Sea, or leading an alienated hermit-like existence surely explains the Thai-bashing and general negativity so often seen on the forums and elsewhere.

Now that so many Faranglands have changed out of recognition and gone to the dogs, these expats are stuck here - they can't go home again.

 

 

8 hours ago, DeaconJohn said:

 

 

Good points about family here.

My own experience bears it out.

While you're generally right about the importance of language proficiency, there have been notable exceptions.

Bernard Trink and Jim Thompson come to mind, but many others have certainly qualified as Old Asia Hands without being fluent in Thai.

Their business and social milieu was largely populated by English speakers so there was no compelling reason for them to learn - presuming they were able to in the first place.

That said, for those of us who don't fly so high, it is much better to be able to communicate directly and understand what is being said around us.

people who downplay language acquisition tend to be those who haven't learned it. As such they have no idea on what they've missed out on and probably don't engage with any THai people on an equal basis. May " can’t read a Thai menu, write their own address, or hold a basic conversation without pointing. They rely on their wives, waitresses, or dodgy Facebook groups for filtered info, yet hold forth as if they understand Thai politics, culture, and society.
They stereotype relentlessly: “Thais are like this, Thais are like that.” But if someone made sweeping comments about their home country based on chats with a single barmaid or taxi driver, they’d throw a tantrum."

 

THey also don't understand how incredibly rude pointing is either.

20 hours ago, SoCal1990 said:

Just one?

What's the sould of one hand clapping?

7 nights a week in either Cowboy or Nana. Those guys have made it.

On 7/19/2025 at 7:59 PM, SoCal1990 said:

What qualifies someone as a real old-hand in Asia, particularly in Thailand? Years in-country, experience with visas and immigration, half a dozen failed romances, knowledge of local culture, language skills, or merely staying long enough without going home?

 

Personally, I’d say if you haven’t done at least 20 years here, you’re still a mid-level newbie. It’s only after the two-decade mark that you can claim true “old-hand” status. That's when you’ve seen governments change multiple times, witnessed street protests, department store fires, coups, tsunamis, currency crashes, floods, bar scenes rise and fall, and you’ve been through at least a couple cycles of Thailand reinventing itself.

 

And for those who hit 30 years? I don’t even know what category that is… ancient relic? Museum piece? Or maybe just “part of the woodwork.” Either way, at that point you've seen it all, and none of it surprises you anymore. Not even a soi full of ladyboys. 

 

Made me chuckle reading this. I'm 55 and have been here consistently for 25 years, when I tell people this some can't believe it. To compound that, most of the folk I 'hang out; with are older than me but have been here for less time, which gives me a begrudging type of 'respect' lol. It's a bit mad to think if I'm still here at 70 I'll be telling folk I've been here a 40 stretch. insane really.

 

And broadly agree with your timelines, if I hear someone has been here for 10 years to me they have just got off the plane. 

9 minutes ago, Stuck in Thailand said:

 

Made me chuckle reading this. I'm 55 and have been here consistently for 25 years, when I tell people this some can't believe it. To compound that, most of the folk I 'hang out; with are older than me but have been here for less time, which gives me a begrudging type of 'respect' lol. It's a bit mad to think if I'm still here at 70 I'll be telling folk I've been here a 40 stretch. insane really.

 

And broadly agree with your timelines, if I hear someone has been here for 10 years to me they have just got off the plane. 

It depends on what you do - I worked in industry and my work in the day was mostly with Thai people and expats from all over Europe and Asia and in the evening I socialised mostly with Thai people again. I found that retirees had very little understanding of Thailand regardless of how long they'd been here because they just didn't communicate with Thai people.......some had THai wives - in general as guides to Thai vulture they are a joke.

 

I also notice that many long termers who think themselves "old hands" - spend most of their time pointing out critically what Thai people do - the ubiquitous 3rd person "they" - but seldom take the time for an introspective viewpoint of themselves instead..

 

of course one thing you need to factor in with "old hands" is that they are seldom aware of how much they don't know.

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

It depends on what you do - I worked in industry and my work in the day was mostly with Thai peopoe and expats from all over Europe and Asia and in the evening I socialised mostly with Thai people again. I found that retirees had very little understanding of Thailand regardless of how long they'd been here because they just didn't communicate with Thai people.......some had THai wives - in general as guides to Thai vulture they are a joke.

 

Yea yea, change the record fella, all that has been said ten thousand times already, you big bore.

5 minutes ago, Stuck in Thailand said:

 

Yea yea, change the record fella, all that has been said ten thousand times already, you big bore.

I'm sorry is all this going over your head? - you don't seem to be able to contribute to the discussion and therefore one wonders why you bother commenting.

Just now, kwilco said:

I'm sorry is all this going over your head? - you don't seem to be able to contribute to the discussion and therefore one wonders why you bother commenting.

 

Bore off you old fossil, your only 'contribution' is something that has been trotted out thousands of times already. Go and play with your Thai friends lol.

4 minutes ago, Stuck in Thailand said:

 

Bore off you old fossil, your only 'contribution' is something that has been trotted out thousands of times already. Go and play with your Thai friends lol.

Go and play with your Thai friends lol’?

 

That one-liner says more about you than I ever could. Mocking someone for actually engaging with Thai people while living in Thailand — that’s not just lazy, it’s revealing especially in this thread... If you find local interaction laughable or beneath you, maybe it’s not me who needs to 'bore off,' but you who’s missed the entire point of being here.

And as for calling me an old fossil — I’ll take that over being a bitter echo chamber of mediocrity who contributes nothing but knee-jerk snark. When you’re done sneering at those who actually learned something during their time here, feel free to show us all how it’s done. We’ll wait.

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Go and play with your Thai friends lol’?

 

That one-liner says more about you than I ever could. Mocking someone for actually engaging with Thai people while living in Thailand — that’s not just lazy, it’s revealing especially in this thread... If you find local interaction laughable or beneath you, maybe it’s not me who needs to 'bore off,' but you who’s missed the entire point of being here.

And as for calling me an old fossil — I’ll take that over being a bitter echo chamber of mediocrity who contributes nothing but knee-jerk snark. When you’re done sneering at those who actually learned something during their time here, feel free to show us all how it’s done. We’ll wait.

 

And yet here you are on a Sunday night.  You're a fraud.

17 minutes ago, Stuck in Thailand said:

 

And yet here you are on a Sunday night.  You're a fraud.

how so?

On 7/19/2025 at 9:48 PM, Lacessit said:

Ability to speak, understand, read and write Thai with fluency.

 

That would be a small percentage of foreigners living here.

 

I started learning Thai with a Thai partner in my late twenties. By my early thirties, I had conversational fluency, and now I would say I speak at roughly eighty five percent of an adult native-born speaker’s level. I can usually follow conversation on any topic, understand the news on TV, etc. Does that make me an old hand? I’m not sure. I never thought of it that way.

 

It has certainly helped me understand local people in ways someone without the language could not. Things are a lot more straightforward in Thailand when you can communicate properly. But it is not all positive. There are situations where I am actually better off not speaking Thai with locals and I have adjusted to that. Fluency means you also pick up a lot of mundane or trivial conversations around you that would have otherwise gladly gone unnoticed. Sometimes it also comes with higher social expectations, as people assume that I understand certain cultural nuances. It can cut both ways, you gain convenience and access in some situations, but there are times when blending in as an unknowing foreigner has its perks too.

 

I do not think age is much of a factor in learning a language. If you have the discipline to memorize vocabulary and push yourself to use it daily with native speakers, your fluency can grow at any age.

 

I studied Spanish on my own for a while, memorized a lot of words, but without anyone to practice with, it faded quickly. It reinforced my belief that age is not the issue, but consistent, real-world use is the key to success with language learning. Memorizing alone is not enough. You have to speak it, live it, and engage with it regularly.

4 hours ago, RSD1 said:

I would say I speak at roughly eighty five percent of an adult native-born speaker’s level

 

@RSD1 - I am curious - have you been able to attain the music of Thai language? 99% of farang speaking Thai, even the ones speaking well (relatively speaking), speak in kind of a flat voice. Thais almost sing their language. Whenever I record myself and then listen to myself speaking Thai, I am horrified at how bad it sounds. 

42 minutes ago, Equatorial said:

 

@RSD1 - I am curious - have you been able to attain the music of Thai language? 99% of farang speaking Thai, even the ones speaking well (relatively speaking), speak in kind of a flat voice. Thais almost sing their language. Whenever I record myself and then listen to myself speaking Thai, I am horrified at how bad it sounds. 

I've been told that I sound like a Bangkok Thai, with a minor foreign accent when I speak, but enough for them to know I'm a foreigner when I'm speaking with a local on the phone.
 

Locals who rarely meet foreigners that can speak fluent Thai are sometimes startled and pause when I first speak. But most Bangkok Thais seem less surprised these days and don't take much notice anymore. 

On 7/19/2025 at 8:19 PM, novacova said:

Time is irrelevant. Know guys who have been here 25 30 years and can’t really relate to anything much outside of their local area and wife. Can’t even do an extension without an agent. Met one guy a few years back who lived in a condo with his local wife for 18 years in chang phueak, we were talking and as I was getting ready to split mentioned that I was heading to kad thannin in santitham and he said, “Santitham? Kad thannin? Where’s that?”

Chang phueak, where else and where have you been? A lot of hermit types here that stay in doors stare at the television all day and the only social activity is when the wife says “ok food ready”. 

A 3 month backpacker sees more than a 10 year expat.

On 7/19/2025 at 5:51 PM, kwilco said:

that would indicate you are not used to the food and therefore not an "old hand".

I disagree with your statement, and here's why:

 

Many of my Thai staff are females from Isaan. I suspect they would qualify as "old hands", despite being local. At least 50% of the time when they eat either seafood som tam or go to a moo ka ta place, they get bad diarrhea. Not only do they get it, but in pure Thai style they inform me of that fact (hence my statistics of 50% of the time). They also eat both seafood som tam and moo ka ta a lot, so decent and clean bathrooms are a must in my business. In fact, I've learned that when they are eating seafood som tam, they're fantasizing about their next plate of seafood som tam.

 

In other cultures we tend to have different rules regarding what intimate info we share with others. I'm not an "old hand", but I do know Thai women feel no embarrassment telling you things like when they are suffering diarrhea or when it's a "Lady Day".

Nobody is an "OLE Hand"-Things change to quickly throughout Asia.

On 7/20/2025 at 12:15 AM, SoCal1990 said:

After 20-30 years, you should at least be able to speak it with a 4th grade proficiency. No excuse not to. 

 

I can't and my wife teaches it 🥲 

45 minutes ago, Dan747 said:

Nobody is an "OLE Hand"-Things change to quickly throughout Asia.

 

I think this observation is accurate...    Asia has evolved so much, that anyone with experience of 30 years ago recognises how different it is today.

 

In Thailand, be it any city, places, restaurants, bars etc evolve so much that having knowledge of 10 years ago is pretty useless...   the person who has been very active in that specific city or town in the past year likely has a better idea of 'whats going on'... 

 

 

 

 

Total of 41 years in Asia, out of which, the last 12 in Thailand. Also, been working for 3 years in Afrika in between. Left my home country at a tender age of 27.

Been married to a Thai woman for 27 years. Does that count?

 

6 hours ago, Wingate said:

I disagree with your statement, and here's why:

 

Many of my Thai staff are females from Isaan. I suspect they would qualify as "old hands", despite being local. At least 50% of the time when they eat either seafood som tam or go to a moo ka ta place, they get bad diarrhea. Not only do they get it, but in pure Thai style they inform me of that fact (hence my statistics of 50% of the time). They also eat both seafood som tam and moo ka ta a lot, so decent and clean bathrooms are a must in my business. In fact, I've learned that when they are eating seafood som tam, they're fantasizing about their next plate of seafood som tam.

 

In other cultures we tend to have different rules regarding what intimate info we share with others. I'm not an "old hand", but I do know Thai women feel no embarrassment telling you things like when they are suffering diarrhea or when it's a "Lady Day".

 

Let’s not forget the original topic here — What Actually Makes You an “Old Hand” in Asia? Your story is actually a great example of how people miss that mark, especially when it comes to understanding kreng jai and everyday Thai social dynamics.
First, a technical point — what you’re referring to as “seafood” in som tam is very likely poo pla ra, which isn’t seafood in the marine sense. It’s fermented freshwater crab, a completely different beast from prawns or mussels. That matters, especially when you’re talking about stomach upsets — which are often due to “OD-ing” on chilli and fermented ingredients, not food poisoning in the Western, bacterial sense. Real bacterial infections take hours or even days to show symptoms, not 20 minutes after lunch.
I’ve worked in both large factories and offices where most of the 4000 staff were Thai women in my office, many from Isaan although most tertiary educated. (I also worked at a University of tourism teaching 450 students mostly female).

Yes, we had a couch in our office, and yes, it was routinely occupied post-lunch by someone who’d gone too hard on som tam poo pla ra. And yes, I’ve heard every version of “bathroom emergency” and “Lady Day” “men” (loanword} imaginable. But here’s the thing — that’s not about oversharing or “pure Thai style,” as you say. It’s about a subtle form of communication governed by kreng jai and a web of mutually understood norms between Thai workers and their bosses.
What you’re seeing isn’t crude or excessive honesty. It’s a culturally accepted method of signalling the need for a break, one that Thai bosses understand and accommodate without making a fuss. Westerners — even ones who’ve been here a long time — often miss that and think they’re being told too much, or take it literally, instead of seeing the nuance behind it. That’s a clear indicator they’re not yet “old hands.”
So no — your Thai staff aren’t “old hands” in the context of this thread, which is about foreigners learning to live within the culture, not just around it. But what is on display in your example is how even long-term expats can completely misread what’s really going on.
I learned that lesson myself once, when I cheekily said “som nam na!” to one of my staff who’d eaten too much som tam. She laughed but then politely ignored me — because I’d missed the bigger point: this isn’t about cause and effect or judgment. It’s about accepting what’s understood and moving on. That, right there, is one of the quieter thresholds of becoming an “old hand.”
 

On 7/20/2025 at 11:28 AM, kwilco said:

that retirees had very little understanding of Thailand regardless of how long they'd been here because they just didn't communicate with Thai people.......some had THai wives - in general as guides to Thai vulture they are a joke.

 

There is nothing to know.

There is no such thing as "Thai culture" beyond food, music, and buddhism.

 

Most people, Thais alike, know little about Buddhism beyond the superficialities. 

 

After that, there is nothing to know. Thais are human beings. You need to respect them. 

 

There's "culture" within families if you get married, but anyone who is married will quickly learn what they need to learn. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

There is nothing to know

QED! - Thanks for the textbook example of what I meant by ‘long-term residents who understand very little.’ The idea that there’s ‘nothing to know’ about Thai culture beyond food, music, and superficial Buddhism says more about your limitations than it does about Thailand.
Not sure you even understand what "culture" (not vulture!! err) actually is - Culture isn’t just consumer goods like pad krapao and temple bells — it’s how people navigate hierarchy, obligation, shame, humour, gender roles, time, indirect communication, and conflict. It’s kreng jai, bunkhun, sanjay, face, and the dozens of unwritten social codes that govern daily life here — many of which foreigners routinely miss even after decades.
Yes, Thai people are human beings — that’s the lowest possible bar. But if you think ‘being human’ and ‘having culture’ are mutually exclusive, you’ve missed the point entirely. And your suggestion that a foreigner marrying into a Thai family gives them automatic cultural fluency is laughable — marriage often reveals just how little one understands, not how much.
Dismissing a whole civilization’s subtle, complex social fabric as ‘nothing to know’ isn't just lazy — it's arrogant. This mindset is exactly why so many retirees and long-term expats are the opposite of 'old hands': they live here for years and still have no idea where they are 

An "old-hand" knows why the girls in go-go bars wear numbers.

 

And no it is not so you the punter can chose a number. You obviously can do that but that is not the primary reason for the number.

On 7/20/2025 at 3:26 PM, VocalNeal said:

- Hardly a driver / Is now alive / Who passed / On hills / At 75

- Drives when he's been drinking depends on you to do his thinking.

 

Burma Shave.

3 hours ago, save the frogs said:

 

There is nothing to know.

There is no such thing as "Thai culture" beyond food, music, and buddhism.

 

Most people, Thais alike, know little about Buddhism beyond the superficialities. 

 

After that, there is nothing to know. Thais are human beings. You need to respect them. 

 

There's "culture" within families if you get married, but anyone who is married will quickly learn what they need to learn. 

 

 

Religion is pretty basic. More of a lifestyle.