1 hour ago, Peter Crow said:

I most certainly do. War make civilian victims. Israel is at war with Gaza, after being attacked, period.

 

Arabs/Palestinians were attacked in the last century by Israeli/Zionists, and they have both been at war since.

9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

It made a point, as did the bombing of Gaza. The disproportionate nature of Israel's bombing of Gaza was completely unnecessary, and the same argument could be made of Dresden. 

 

However you could certainly make an argument that the German people deserved that bombing a lot more than the Gazans. 

How was it unnecessary, has Hamas surrendered?

 

It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders. 

 

And are we not always told how the Palestinians hate Hamas?

 

Why would they not support Israel in the fight against Hamas?

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

How was it unnecessary, has Hamas surrendered?

 

It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders. 

 

And are we not always told how the Palestinians hate Hamas?

 

Why would they not support Israel in the fight against Hamas?

 

How many times have we heard this mantra, it all stops when Hamas/Arabs/ anyone who is against Israel stops attacking?

Yet this has gone on ever since the Israeli State was declared, with no regard for the indigenous people who resided in the land that was allocated  to Israel.

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

How many times have we heard this mantra, it all stops when Hamas/Arabs/ anyone who is against Israel stops attacking?

Yet this has gone on ever since the Israeli State was declared, with no regard for the indigenous people who resided in the land that was allocated  to Israel.

<removed>.  What I said was: It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders. 

 

Has Hamas surrendered? They have not. Do you support Hamas, and do you think Hamas is good for Palestine? If not, why would you not want them to surrender?

 

 

26 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Arabs/Palestinians were attacked in the last century by Israeli/Zionists, and they have both been at war since.

Preposterous, if you want to go back in history you'll see that the jewish claim to Palestine is perfectly legitimate, the ragheads were the invaders.

 

But this war started on October 7, 2023, that's all.

 

Just now, Peter Crow said:

Preposterous, if you want to go back in history you'll see that the jewish claim to Palestine is perfectly legitimate, the ragheads were the invaders.

 

But this war started on October 7, 2023, that's all.

 

 

Yeah, of course it did.

7 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Estimates for the total tonnage of bombs dropped on the Gaza Strip have varied and increased as the conflict has continued.¹ Different sources and timeframes provide different figures:

 

 

• As of October 2024, one estimate suggests that the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza was more than 70,000 tonnes, covering the period from October 7, 2023.

• Earlier estimates, around November 2023, indicated more than 25,000 tonnes of explosives had been dropped since October 7, 2023.²

   

   

 

Comparison per Square Kilometer

 

The Gaza Strip is approximately 365 square kilometers (141 square miles) in area.³ Using the higher estimate of 70,000 tonnes of explosives, the density of bombing can be approximated:

 

 

$$\frac{\text{70,000 tonnes}}{365 \text{ km}^2} \approx \text{191.8 tonnes per square kilometer}$$

How this compares to other wars:

The intensity of the bombing in Gaza has been compared by experts and human rights organizations to some of the most devastating campaigns in history, with some stating it is "unparalleled in the post-Second World War era."⁴

 

 

• World War II Bombings (Combined Tonnage): The estimated 70,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on Gaza has been reported to surpass the combined bomb tonnage dropped on Dresden, Hamburg, and London during World War II.⁵

   

   

  • London (1940-1941): Around 18,300 tonnes.

  • Hamburg (1943): Around 8,500 tonnes.

  • Dresden (1945): Around 3,900 tonnes.

• Comparison to Nuclear Bombs:

  • The 25,000-tonne figure was cited as being equivalent to the explosive yield of two nuclear bombs.⁶

     

     

  • One expert, using the 70,000-tonne figure, stated it was the equivalent of six Hiroshima nuclear bombs (the Hiroshima bomb was approximately 12 kilotons, or 12,000 tonnes, of TNT equivalent).⁷

     

     

• Destruction Intensity: The destruction in Gaza, especially when considering the small, densely populated area, is reported to have outpaced, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II.⁸ By late 2023, the campaign was described as one of the "most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history" and "comfortably in the top quartile of the most devastating bombing campaigns ever," with destruction exceeding that of Syria's Aleppo and Ukraine's Mariupol.⁹

   

   

The extremely high density of explosives dropped in a small, highly urbanized, and densely populated territory like Gaza is what leads to these comparisons of unprecedented scale and intensity.

Did it ever occur to you that the modern jet has ability to deliver more ordnance than in WW2?

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

<removed>.  What I said was: It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders. 

 

Has Hamas surrendered? They have not. Do you support Hamas, and do you think Hamas is good for Palestine? If not, why would you not want them to surrender?

 

 

 

OK then Hamas surrenders, does Israel stop interfering in Gaza? 

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

OK then Hamas surrenders, does Israel stop interfering in Gaza? 

Do you mean stop providing aid or what?

 

What do you mean by interfering?

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you mean stop providing aid or what?

 

What do you mean by interfering?

 

By interfering, I mean stop controlling all aspects of life in Gaza, by ending all blockades and help from the worldwide community who want to help Palestinians.

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

 

By interfering, I mean stop controlling all aspects of life in Gaza, by ending all blockades and help from the worldwide community who want to help Palestinians.

Israel does not now, nor has it ever controlled all aspects of life in Gaza, that is demonstrably false. 

 

The IDF had been out of Gaza for 15-20 years prior to 10/7, yes?

 

And I think it depends largely on in what way "worldwide community" wants to help Palestinians. 

 

If they want to help them clear and reopen the tunnels, and rebuild rocket factories, I think no. 

 

I think Palestine will have to be occupied (not by Israel) for at least a few years to get it up and functioning. The tunnels need to be demolished, the city made safe, and the rebuilding needs to start. 

7 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Estimates for the total tonnage of bombs dropped on the Gaza Strip have varied and increased as the conflict has continued.¹ Different sources and timeframes provide different figures:

 

 

• As of October 2024, one estimate suggests that the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza was more than 70,000 tonnes, covering the period from October 7, 2023.

• Earlier estimates, around November 2023, indicated more than 25,000 tonnes of explosives had been dropped since October 7, 2023.²

   

   

 

Comparison per Square Kilometer

 

The Gaza Strip is approximately 365 square kilometers (141 square miles) in area.³ Using the higher estimate of 70,000 tonnes of explosives, the density of bombing can be approximated:

 

 

$$\frac{\text{70,000 tonnes}}{365 \text{ km}^2} \approx \text{191.8 tonnes per square kilometer}$$

How this compares to other wars:

The intensity of the bombing in Gaza has been compared by experts and human rights organizations to some of the most devastating campaigns in history, with some stating it is "unparalleled in the post-Second World War era."⁴

 

 

• World War II Bombings (Combined Tonnage): The estimated 70,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on Gaza has been reported to surpass the combined bomb tonnage dropped on Dresden, Hamburg, and London during World War II.⁵

   

   

  • London (1940-1941): Around 18,300 tonnes.

  • Hamburg (1943): Around 8,500 tonnes.

  • Dresden (1945): Around 3,900 tonnes.

• Comparison to Nuclear Bombs:

  • The 25,000-tonne figure was cited as being equivalent to the explosive yield of two nuclear bombs.⁶

     

     

  • One expert, using the 70,000-tonne figure, stated it was the equivalent of six Hiroshima nuclear bombs (the Hiroshima bomb was approximately 12 kilotons, or 12,000 tonnes, of TNT equivalent).⁷

     

     

• Destruction Intensity: The destruction in Gaza, especially when considering the small, densely populated area, is reported to have outpaced, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II.⁸ By late 2023, the campaign was described as one of the "most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history" and "comfortably in the top quartile of the most devastating bombing campaigns ever," with destruction exceeding that of Syria's Aleppo and Ukraine's Mariupol.⁹

   

   

The extremely high density of explosives dropped in a small, highly urbanized, and densely populated territory like Gaza is what leads to these comparisons of unprecedented scale and intensity.

The proper comparison would be between cities like Berlin, and Stalingrad which under went urban combat. 

10 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

It didn't start on October 7th and it won't end with October 7th. The world is awake. 

 

If Oct 7, 2023 didn't happen, what would Gaza look like? 

Posts (and sections of posts) containing harsh language (and retorts) were removed. @Yellowtail, please debate politely and avoid referring to those who disagree with you as 'liars'. Thank you. 

48 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Israel does not now, nor has it ever controlled all aspects of life in Gaza, that is demonstrably false. 

 

Ok, can Gazans, go out into the Med to fish?

Can Gazans go to their own Airport to travel?

Can Gazans import/export by sea or air?

 

48 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

The IDF had been out of Gaza for 15-20 years prior to 10/7, yes?

 

Have Israeli bombs, artillery shells, small arms fire stopped falling in Gaza since the Israeli's gave up their Illegal settlements in 2005?

 

48 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

And I think it depends largely on in what way "worldwide community" wants to help Palestinians. 

 

If they want to help them clear and reopen the tunnels, and rebuild rocket factories, I think no. 

 

I think Palestine will have to be occupied (not by Israel) for at least a few years to get it up and functioning. The tunnels need to be demolished, the city made safe, and the rebuilding needs to start. 

 

Originally you said, "It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders." so you were lying, because still no matter what the Gazans do you still have the gall to want to control the area, by controlling whatever the International Community wants to do to help them.

Once they have there own territory or State it has nothing to do with you until you are attacked weather they rebuild the so called tunnels or rebuild rockets, does any one stop you building armaments in your own Country?

We do however agree that an independent force needs to be employed to keep the peace while Statehood for Palestinians is implemented, in my view to keep the Israeli's honest. 

41 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Ok, can Gazans, go out into the Med to fish?

Can Gazans go to their own Airport to travel?

Can Gazans import/export by sea or air?

You said every aspect. Can they dig tunnels? If they were digging tunnels, clearly every aspect of their lives was not controlled. 

41 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Have Israeli bombs, artillery shells, small arms fire stopped falling in Gaza since the Israeli's gave up their Illegal settlements in 2005?

Are you asking if Israeli bombs, artillery shells and small arms fire have been raining down on Gaza continuously since 2005 If so, then clearly the answer is no. 

 

It that what you were asking?

41 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Originally you said, "It all stops the moment Hamas surrenders." so you were lying, because still no matter what the Gazans do you still have the gall to want to control the area, by controlling whatever the International Community wants to do to help them.

I'm sorry, I should have said the war stops, the moment Hamas surrenders. My bad. 

 

You have me confused. Hamas notwithstanding, I have not suggested the Gazans be made to do anything, nor do I have any interest in controlling anything in Gaza.

 

41 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Once they have there own territory or State it has nothing to do with you until you are attacked weather they rebuild the so called tunnels or rebuild rockets, does any one stop you building armaments in your own Country?

A Hamas surrender is meaningless if they are just reelected and resume attempts to eradicate Israel. 

41 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

We do however agree that an independent force needs to be employed to keep the peace while Statehood for Palestinians is implemented, in my view to keep the Israeli's honest. 

Having an independent peacekeeping force makes no sense if it is going to allow digging tunnels and making rockets. 

 

And what should the "independent force" be independent from?

14 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

 

You cannot make any kind of moral equivalency between Israel's response to the Hamas attacks and the US response to Hitler's insane execution of millions of innocents. 

So are we supposed to wait until Muslims kill millions of Israelis before we are allowed compare the bombing of Gaza to the bombing of Dresden? And do you have any doubt that those Hamas savages would kill all Israelis and all Jews - given the opportunity? The Jews have good enough memory not to let that kind of catastrophe to happen to them ever again. And the state of Israel and IDF are the best protection against it. 

7 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

So are we supposed to wait until Muslims kill millions of Israelis before we can compare the bombing of Gaza to the bombing of Dresden? And do you have any doubt that those Hamas savages would kill all Israelis and all Jews - given the opportunity?

It is a bit baffling that Hamas say opening that they want to eradicate Israel, and exterminate Jews worldwide, and these nut-sacks be like: "No, they don't really mean it, they only want to live in peace."

4 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

So are we supposed to wait until Muslims kill millions of Israelis before we can compare the bombing of Gaza to the bombing of Dresden? And do you have any doubt that those Hamas savages would kill all Israelis and all Jews - given the opportunity?

 

Comparing the bombing of Dresden with the bombing of Gaza are 2 completely different era's, for one there were no rules of war/conflict before the formation of the UN after WW2.

 

As for will/would the Hamas/ or elected Government of a Palestine State do if they ever get Independence, perhaps you should consider the history of the Israel State towards the Palestinians.

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It is a bit baffling that Hamas say opening that they want to eradicate Israel, and exterminate Jews worldwide, and these nut-sacks be like: "No, they don't really mean it, they only want to live in peace."

 

Try asking yourself WHY.

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Comparing the bombing of Dresden with the bombing of Gaza are 2 completely different era's, for one there were no rules of war/conflict before the formation of the UN after WW2.

 

As for will/would the Hamas/ or elected Government of a Palestine State do if they ever get Independence, perhaps you should consider the history of the Israel State towards the Palestinians.

Do you ever consider the history of Arabs towards the Jews?

3 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

How many times have we heard this mantra, it all stops when Hamas/Arabs/ anyone who is against Israel stops attacking?

Yet this has gone on ever since the Israeli State was declared, with no regard for the indigenous people who resided in the land that was allocated  to Israel.

 

    Arabs have indeed been attacking Israel since 1948.

Hopefully this current war will put  stop to it and bring peace to the region .

   Israel first needs to put a complete end to Hamas , Hezbollah and Iran first . Then peace can prevail

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Try asking yourself WHY.

I know why, 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Comparing the bombing of Dresden with the bombing of Gaza are 2 completely different era's, for one there were no rules of war/conflict before the formation of the UN after WW2.

 

As for will/would the Hamas/ or elected Government of a Palestine State do if they ever get Independence, perhaps you should consider the history of the Israel State towards the Palestinians.

What rules of war did those so-called Gazan “freedom fighters” follow when they indiscriminately murdered children, women, and other civilians on October 7?

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Comparing the bombing of Dresden with the bombing of Gaza are 2 completely different era's, for one there were no rules of war/conflict before the formation of the UN after WW2.

 

As for will/would the Hamas/ or elected Government of a Palestine State do if they ever get Independence, perhaps you should consider the history of the Israel State towards the Palestinians.

Does Palestine abide by the UN's rules of war/conflict?

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Does Palestine abide by the UN's rules of war/conflict?

 

No, does Israel?

3 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

What rules of war did those so-called Gazan “freedom fighters” follow when they indiscriminately murdered children, women, and other civilians on October 7?

 None, whatsoever. Has Israel?

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

No, does Israel?

I do not know. 

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you ever consider the history of Arabs towards the Jews?

 

Yes, before the State of Israel was declared/envisaged, I believe the local Jewish population got along quite with there Arab neighbours for hundreds of years.

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I do not know. 

 Convenient.