A retired friend of mine living in Thailand - a former (farang) English teacher - told me that the 'vast majority' of foreign teachers do not have work permits. I was a bit surprised by the term 'vast majority' - but not surprised that some don't have work permits. From time to time, we hear news reports of Immigration raids and arrests of teachers at private and international schools.

 

But is it true the vast majority are working illegally? That's my first question. My second question regards whose responsibility it is for the teacher to have a work permit - the teacher? Or the employer (the school)? If the latter, why don't they arrest and charge the school's manager or owner as well as the teacher?

 

Pretty sure there are members here who have very good knowledge on this.

 

 

I doubt there are that many anymore.  There's no way for them to remain in Thailand unless they have a work visa and extension, and the extension is only possible with the work permit.

 

I think most of the ones that were doing it without a work permit were people that simply didn't qualify for the work permit, because they did not have a bachelor's degree so could not legally teach.

 

With the ongoing tightening of visas and visa exempts over the last year or so, I can't imagine anyone is living on a shoe string teaching illegally for low pay and being scared the entire time.

 

Also as far as illegal employment, employers can and do get in trouble for it.  But I doubt they'll be willing to do much to a school.  Maybe to an employment agency, but even then it's more of a shakedown to see how much money they can get out of them for breaking the law.

I doubt very much that it's a 'vast majority', and with the clamping down on visa runs, there will be even less. 

I know of quite a few.  All are on Extensions based on marriage or retirement and have been for many years.  They don't have work permits as they do not have a degree, despite being excellent and experienced teachers.  

21 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

A retired friend of mine living in Thailand - a former (farang) English teacher - told me that the 'vast majority' of foreign teachers do not have work permits. I was a bit surprised by the term 'vast majority' - but not surprised that some don't have work permits. From time to time, we hear news reports of Immigration raids and arrests of teachers at private and international schools.

 

But is it true the vast majority are working illegally? That's my first question. My second question regards whose responsibility it is for the teacher to have a work permit - the teacher? Or the employer (the school)? If the latter, why don't they arrest and charge the school's manager or owner as well as the teacher?

 

Pretty sure there are members here who have very good knowledge on this.

 

 

Probably better you don't pry, don't ask questions and leave well enough alone. If your situation in Thailand is legal, then don't worry about others.

 

The driving force for this will be paying well below the going rate for fully qualified teachers with a work permit.

There are not so many foreign teachers anymore.. The reason is quite easy, it is almost impossible to get a teacher license which is needed to get a workpermit. There is at least a master in education needed of a list of university of Kurusapha, and not so many teachers with a Master will come to Thailand to teach for 35k or max 40k in a school. Besides that all paperwork will costs about 2 months to get and apply for the workpermit and than for your visa.. In fact nobody is allowed to work to in that time, and the schools are complaining about the many papers needed.. If you have your workpermit you are only allowed to teach on the premises mentioned in the workpermit and not allowed to anything else, so no special classes at home, no English Camps on weekend unless they are in the school, etc etc.. Too many rules and restrictions that nobody likes... The Government doesn't want that kids are being taught and open their minds, foreigners are a threat for Thai Culture is told... Here on the forum you can sometimes too, that people think that foreigners discussing things are complaining and therefor better could leave the country... Yes there will be teachers with no workpermits, but that is because the Government has a lot requirements for teachers and school to make things difficult and so people are doing illegal ways as they know that the RTP is not working and no thread as long as there are no complaints

9 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I know of quite a few.  All are on Extensions based on marriage or retirement and have been for many years.  They don't have work permits as they do not have a degree, despite being excellent and experienced teachers.  

Right, I think that was the jist of what he said. Though I 'guess' they could be exploited and paid (even fewer) peanuts for working under the radar. 

3 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

If you have your workpermit you are only allowed to teach on the premises mentioned in the workpermit and not allowed to anything else, so no special classes at home, no English Camps on weekend unless they are in the school, etc etc..

That's the same for all professions/skill sets that get work permits. It's for one thing and one employer only.

9 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

Probably better you don't pry, don't ask questions and leave well enough alone. If your situation in Thailand is legal, then don't worry about others.

Nonsense, teachers without a work permit are not vetted to check if they are child predators.

47 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

A retired friend of mine living in Thailand - a former (farang) English teacher - told me that the 'vast majority' of foreign teachers do not have work permits. I was a bit surprised by the term 'vast majority' - but not surprised that some don't have work permits. From time to time, we hear news reports of Immigration raids and arrests of teachers at private and international schools.

 

But is it true the vast majority are working illegally? That's my first question. My second question regards whose responsibility it is for the teacher to have a work permit - the teacher? Or the employer (the school)? If the latter, why don't they arrest and charge the school's manager or owner as well as the teacher?

 

Pretty sure there are members here who have very good knowledge on this.

 

 

"A retired friend of mine living in Thailand - a former (farang) English teacher - told me that the 'vast majority' of foreign teachers do not have work permits."

As a retired guy living in Thailand for now close to 19 years and a former (farang) English teacher, having worked in the business I can vouch that "a large number" of foreign teachers do not have work permits.
The "vast majority?"  Nah. The vast majority who work at reputable private and public schools have work permits.

Both the school and the foreign teacher are responsible for the work permit.  Forms with the proper sign-offs from both the teacher and the employer must be submitted the the Ministry of Labor.   
But the sanctions for working without a work permit are harsh for the illegal teacher, and generally a hand-slap for the employer.  Why is that.  Corruption. Is it fair. No.  But "life is not fair." Take the word, "Fair" out of your personal dictionary. 

Now - do I care?  No. I stopped caring a longggggg time ago.  It is what it is. And it doesn't affect me. 

34 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

All are on Extensions based on marriage

I could legally get a job as an English teacher with my extension based on marriage.  That one of the reason guys get that extension - you can legally obtain a work permit on that extension. 

3 minutes ago, connda said:

I could legally get a job as an English teacher with my extension based on marriage.  That one of the reason guys get that extension - you can legally obtain a work permit on that extension. 

..and probably get better pay? I guess.

It's interesting that Vietnam - there's that competitor country again - is introducing English classes beginning at year 1 in all state schools. The country already speaks English a bit better than the average Thai. They will need many teachers. Most Thai kids in the public school system can't speak, read or understand more than a couple of English words. Maybe Anutin and his rich Sino-Thai backers will introduce Mandarin..

31 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

There is at least a master in education needed of a list of university of Kurusapha, and not so many teachers with a Master will come to Thailand to teach for 35k or max 40k in a school.

Those with a Masters Degree and a teacher's certificate from their home country and experience teaching can command salaries upwards of 100K THB / month.

There are still people out there on retirement and marriage visas teaching without a work permit? That's news to me. There's none in my area whereas 10 years ago there was a handful. They must like living on the edge and be pretty confident they're not going to get kicked out of the country. I taught for many years without a permit, but when they started cracking down I quit because jeopardizing my immigration status wasn't worth it. I refuse requests to tutor one-on-one as well. Some people might report you just to get out of paying the tutoring fee, or a local language school/tutor might report you because they think you're stealing business. It's a shame because it used to be a really nice way to connect with people and give back to the community, especially in rural Thailand.

4 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

..and probably get better pay? I guess.

No - the pay universally sucks in Thailand.  The pay was between 30K to 40K a month with pay increases based on how long you worked for the school.  That was 18 years ago when I was teaching.  18 years later and the wages have not changed.  Which is why its tough for Thailand to get qualified farang teachers.  And yet the school administrators are an arrogant lot and you'd be led to believe that they are doing you a favor by "allowing" you to work at their schools.  I taught not only Thai students, but I also taught Thai teachers as well as business professionals. After three years of that I was done with it. It's a Sisyphean endeavor. 

1 minute ago, Gecko123 said:

There are still people out there on retirement and marriage visas teaching without a work permit? That's news to me. There's none in my area.

Nor in mine.  After I quit teaching and when I moved to our village, I offered to volunteer teach at local schools.  My only demand was that they work with myself and the Ministry of Labor to obtain a work permit.  
They refuse.
I refused.
End of story.  

I know other guys on retirement and marriage visas.  No one I know works. 

53 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

There are not so many foreign teachers anymore.. The reason is quite easy, it is almost impossible to get a teacher license which is needed to get a workpermit. There is at least a master in education needed of a list of university of Kurusapha, and not so many teachers with a Master will come to Thailand to teach for 35k or max 40k in a school. Besides that all paperwork will costs about 2 months to get and apply for the workpermit and than for your visa.. In fact nobody is allowed to work to in that time, and the schools are complaining about the many papers needed.. If you have your workpermit you are only allowed to teach on the premises mentioned in the workpermit and not allowed to anything else, so no special classes at home, no English Camps on weekend unless they are in the school, etc etc.. Too many rules and restrictions that nobody likes... The Government doesn't want that kids are being taught and open their minds, foreigners are a threat for Thai Culture is told... Here on the forum you can sometimes too, that people think that foreigners discussing things are complaining and therefor better could leave the country... Yes there will be teachers with no workpermits, but that is because the Government has a lot requirements for teachers and school to make things difficult and so people are doing illegal ways as they know that the RTP is not working and no thread as long as there are no complaints

By foreign teachers, you probably mean Native English speakers. I know the school I used to work at has gone from 90% Native English to 90% Filipinos, not only because of the qualifications but they can get away with paying them less too.

And I don't want to get too carried away in the paranoia department, but if your spouse knows you're working illegally and there's a property settlement dispute when you get a divorce, if you think your little honey bunny would never dream of using that juicy knowledge as leverage, I suggest you think again. And even if you think she's beyond reproach, anybody with knowledge of your immigration status violation can use the information to harm you or your spouse if a feud or dispute ever arises over an unrelated matter.

40 minutes ago, connda said:

Nor in mine.  After I quit teaching and when I moved to our village, I offered to volunteer teach at local schools.  My only demand was that they work with myself and the Ministry of Labor to obtain a work permit.  
They refuse.
I refused.
End of story.  

I know other guys on retirement and marriage visas.  No one I know works. 

"Nor in mine.  After I quit teaching and when I moved to our village, I offered to volunteer teach at local schools.  My only demand was that they work with myself and the Ministry of Labor to obtain a work permit.  
They refuse.
I refused.
End of story."

I'm not putting my extension status in jeopardy in order to provide an altruistic, civic service for a country in which institutional racism is the norm.  They are happy to use your services as a teacher, but they expect you'll just teach illegally.  And why not.  No skin off their backs. The risk of volunteer teaching, especially when you are highly qualified to do so, is all down-side and little to no up-side.
Out of a sense of generosity, civic duty, and altruism you are willing to take your time and skills to make lesson plans, and teach both students and teacher for free.  All you ask is for the school to keep the entire civic contract legal and above board - then they talk down to you like you're a moron:

 

Literally: "Oh, farang no need work permit. Teach ok.  No problem." 
Let me translate that for you:  "We Thai. You farang. We no care if you get kicked out of country. We just want to use you. Work permit too many problem.  You can volunteer to work illegal. We no care if you go to jail.  We not care if you get kicked out of country.  MoL and Immigration police throw you out of country for being good person and teach Thais for free.  So sad, too bad.  MoL and Immigration police slap our hand, say, 'No do again.' Sucks to be you farang." 

I know other guys on retirement and marriage visas.  No one I know works. However I have heard of guys on retirement visa who volunteer to teach English in schools. I don't consider that to be a good idea for two reasons.  First - many if not most have no teacher training or experience so they are flying blind. Second, they are putting themselves in harms way. Yes - what they are doing is patently illegal and Immigration can kick them out of the country for nothing more that having a good heart and wanting to give to their communities.  If the MoL and Thai Immigration had half a brain they would encourage long-stay expats to volunteer in their Thai communities.  But the concept of volunteerism is a completely foreign concept to Thais. In the West, many of us we're raised with the desire to give to our communities in our retirement years.  Here in Thailand with its institutionalized racism, the Thai authorities ALWAYS think that an altruistic act like volunteering is an attempt to game the immigration system.  It's a winning proposition for the Thai community and a losing proposition for the expat volunteer teacher.  I don't recommend doing it. 

54 minutes ago, connda said:

I could legally get a job as an English teacher with my extension based on marriage.  That one of the reason guys get that extension - you can legally obtain a work permit on that extension. 

I was referring to those married teachers without a degree, hence no work permit.

36 minutes ago, connda said:

Nor in mine.  After I quit teaching and when I moved to our village, I offered to volunteer teach at local schools.  My only demand was that they work with myself and the Ministry of Labor to obtain a work permit.  
They refuse.
I refused.
End of story.  

I know other guys on retirement and marriage visas.  No one I know works. 

The ones I know of and work with, all work in Bangkok or online.  Most are teaching adults, corporate and university level students, not children.

21 minutes ago, BenCrew said:

By foreign teachers, you probably mean Native English speakers. I know the school I used to work at has gone from 90% Native English to 90% Filipinos, not only because of the qualifications but they can get away with paying them less too.

Yep - exactly.  The Thai educational system isn't interested in pay qualified NES the money they deserve to provide quality teaching to their students.  They want to pay as little as possible for as much as they can get. 
I'm not going to knock Filapina teachers.  I've known a number of them.  Most are qualified to teach and actually speak exceptional English.  But many are under the radar.  It's all about greed.

4 minutes ago, connda said:

"Nor in mine.  After I quit teaching and when I moved to our village, I offered to volunteer teach at local schools.  My only demand was that they work with myself and the Ministry of Labor to obtain a work permit.  
They refuse.
I refused.
End of story."

I'm not putting my extension status in jeopardy in order to provide an altruistic, civil service for a country in which institutional racism is the norm.  They are happy to use your services as a teacher, but they expect you'll just teach illegally.  And why not.  No skin off their backs. The risk of volunteer teaching, especially when you are highly qualified to do so, is all down-side and little to no up-side.
Out of a sense of generosity, civic duty, and altruism you are willing to take your time and skills to make lesson plans, and teach both students and teacher for free.  All you ask is for the school to keep the entire civic contract legal and above board - then they talk down to you like you're a moron:

 

Literally: "Oh, farang no need work permit. Teach ok.  No problem." 
Let me translate that for you:  "We Thai. You farang. We no care if you get kicked out of country. We just want to use you. Work permit too many problem.  You can volunteer to work illegal. We no care if you go to jail.  We not care if you get kicked out of country.  MoL and Immigration police throw you out of country for being good person and teach Thais for free.  So sad, too bad.  MoL and Immigration police slap our hand, say, 'No do again.' Sucks to be you farang." 

I know other guys on retirement and marriage visas.  No one I know works. However I have heard of guys on retirement visa who volunteer to teach English in schools. I don't consider that to be a good idea for two reasons.  First - many if not most have no teacher training or experience so they are flying blind. Second, they are putting themselves in harms way. Yes - what they are doing is patently illegal and Immigration can kick them out of the country for nothing more that having a good heart and wanting to give to their communities.  If the MoL and Thai Immigration had half a brain they would encourage long-stay expats to volunteer in their Thai communities.  But the concept of volunteerism is a completely foreign concept to Thais. In the West, many of us we're raised with the desire to give to our communities in our retirement years.  Here in Thailand with its institutionalized racism, the Thai authorities ALWAYS think that an altruistic act like volunteering is an attempt to game the immigration system.  It's a winning proposition of the Thai community and a losing proposition for the expat volunteer teacher.  I don't recommend doing it. 

They really need to look at volunteering again. I don't do it because it is illegal, but I would, not only English but high school math as well. They are not taking advantage of available resources.

I would have believed the "vast majority" part 20 years ago, when they still had big busses from Bangkok for border runs to Cambodia. I did a few of those border runs myself back in the day, and the number of Western teachers on those busses was quite high.

 

Nowadays I'm getting the impression that the schools prefer to hire teachers from countries where faking the required degrees is less of an issue and who are willing to work for less, probably with a work permit in more cases than before. 

1 hour ago, connda said:

Those with a Masters Degree and a teacher's certificate from their home country and experience teaching can command salaries upwards of 100K THB / month.

They can command indeed, but not 1 school will pay it.mostly nowadays only 10 or 11 months because of the holidays, and not more than max 45 if you are lucky

17 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

They really need to look at volunteering again. I don't do it because it is illegal, but I would, not only English but high school math as well. They are not taking advantage of available resources.

No matter what volunteer job you want, it always require a workpermit, and for teaching volunteerwork is not possible. Outdated laws prevent going forward in every way

1 hour ago, ronnie50 said:

That's the same for all professions/skill sets that get work permits. It's for one thing and one employer only.

Indeed, but a job can have different things in different places...and yoy can 't get a workpermit for all that. Outdated laws and regulations

3 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

No matter what volunteer job you want, it always require a work permit, and for teaching volunteer work is not possible. Outdated laws prevent going forward in every way

Hence the need to look at the rules again.