3 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Tourist areas are not good for children, and you let the children decide what their future will be, only giving advice if they are leaning towards a dangerous situation.

Hawaii, where we live, is heavily reliant on tourism. Very little of the violence here is related to the visitor industry. Drugs are the problem. We live in a rural area that sees no tourists except for those on the highway.

Just now, Hawaiian said:

Hawaii, where we live, is heavily reliant on tourism. Very little of the violence here is related to the visitor industry. Drugs are the problem. We live in a rural area that sees no tourists except those on the highway.

My son lived in Honolulu for a few years, until he moved back to San Diego, then eventually back home to San Antonio. I would like to visit Hawaii to fish and see the sites. I did hear drugs were aq problem there, but like you said, being away from the city helps.

20 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

My son lived in Honolulu for a few years, until he moved back to San Diego, then eventually back home to San Antonio. I would like to visit Hawaii to fish and see the sites. I did hear drugs were aq problem there, but like you said, being away from the city helps.

What kind of fishing are you interested in? Taking in the sites used to be easy and free. Now the local governments have found them as a new source of revenue and charge for entry and parking and anything else they can tax. Even car rentals can be a hassle and quite expensive. Many repeat visitors have had enough of this and have decided to go elsewhere. Not trying to discourage you, but just making you aware of the situation.

I could never live in Honolulu. I lived in San Diego for a few years while in the Navy. Progress has ruined the place.

1 minute ago, Hawaiian said:

What kind of fishing are you interested in? Taking in the sites used to be easy and free. Now the local governments have found them as a new source of revenue and charge for entry and parking and anything else they can tax. Even car rentals can be a hassle and quite expensive. Many repeat visitors have had enough of this and have decided to go elsewhere. Not trying to discourage you, but just making you aware of the situation.

I could never live in Honolulu. I lived in San Diego for a few years while in the Navy. Progress has ruined the place.

I have a bucket list. To catch a big marlin is one, along with a big Musky and a Bass larger then any I've caught yet, which is around 10 lbs. I had a big sailfish on once, but it got off while I was putting the rod into the holder, and i didn't even see it jump as the others did. I want to visit San Diego because there are huge Bass in many reservoirs there.

What most people above seem not to understand is that - for, say, 80% of Thais - it is FAMILY that constitutes their social security and health system. Much as it was in 'Western' countries 100 years ago.

I see this on a daily basis here in south Surin amongst the poor Khmer peasants. When I start to decline there will be multiple in-laws available to gather round and help. Assisted no doubt by the fact that, for most of them, I am their main source of funds ...

Since 2017 I've kept a log entitled "thoughts on relocating" , which essentially weighs the pros and cons of staying in Thailand versus repatriating or moving to a new country. One pattern I've noticed is that the decision to leave has been repeatedly postponed as I favorably reassess my health, and take stock of what's going on here and around the world. Future reliability of social safety net payments as well as climate change are two significant factors weighing on the decision.

It looks to me like I will probably hang tight here in Thailand for at least a year or two more. On paper, financially speaking, things look quite rosy, but there's so much uncertainty about the future, I find myself unable to walk away from what is essentially a free housing situation here until I am absolutely certain I can take that risk. I am well aware that I may end up paying a hefty 'opportunity cost' by being overly cautious in this regard, but that's life, right?

29 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

What most people above seem not to understand is that - for, say, 80% of Thais - it is FAMILY that constitutes their social security and health system. Much as it was in 'Western' countries 100 years ago.

I see this on a daily basis here in south Surin amongst the poor Khmer peasants. When I start to decline there will be multiple in-laws available to gather round and help. Assisted no doubt by the fact that, for most of them, I am their main source of funds ...

I would say romanticize Thai family values and respect for the elderly, particularly as to the extent they extend to foreign in-laws at your own peril. 99% of elderly Thais in rural areas who are no longer able to care for themselves end up disappearing into the house, rarely, if ever, to be seen again. They quickly become bed-bound. Physical assistance, therapy, recreational activities are quite limited. Dietary, medicinal and medical access is minimal as well. I'm not suggesting that the elderly are neglected, although by Western standards they, in fact, are. It's just that because of low-incomes and lack of know-how, the standard of care is most often rudimentary. If you want to explore what the realities of elder care in rural Thailand is really like, I suggest seeking out and visiting a family or two in your community who are caring for an elderly relative.

44 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I have a bucket list. To catch a big marlin is one, along with a big Musky and a Bass larger then any I've caught yet, which is around 10 lbs. I had a big sailfish on once, but it got off while I was putting the rod into the holder, and i didn't even see it jump as the others did. I want to visit San Diego because there are huge Bass in many reservoirs there.

I've been deep sea fishing only once when I was a guest aboard a cabin cruiser entered in a fishing tournament. We were lucky enough to catch a 307 lb marlin. The winning fish weighed in at over 1,200 lbs.

This was out of Kailua-Kona which hosts the International Bill Fish Tournament. Other than that, I did shoreline and spear fishing. I also picked opihi which is a prized Hawaiian delicacy.

Just now, Hawaiian said:

I've been deep sea fishing only once when I was a guest aboard a cabin cruiser entered in a fishing tournament. We were lucky enough to catch a 307 lb marlin. The winning fish weighed in at over 1,200 lbs.

This was out of Kailua-Kona which hosts the International Bill Fish Tournament. Other than that, I did shoreline and spear fishing. I also picked opihi which is a prized Hawaiian delicacy.

A 1000 pounder is a dream fish, although some are caught every year. If I got one over 500 I would be totally satisfied. Australia's Barrier Reef offers the best chances, and isn't that far away, but I'm for now concentrating on moving my daughter and I back to Texas. If I catch that Marlin when I'm 85 I'll still be happy, just to see it swim away. Just earlier this morning I watched The Old Man and the Sea, Anthony Quinn version, with my daughter.

19 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

If you want to explore what the realities of elder care in rural Thailand is really like, I suggest seeking out and visiting a family or two in your community who are caring for an elderly relative.

Have seen it often enough here in my own huge Khmer family.

As to the position of foreign members of a Thai peasant family, in the broad you reap what you sow.

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

@Kyoto Kyle I've been here full time 25+ yrs, retired, 2 Thai wives, and 1 daughter, who graduated Uni, and earns good money + investments.

From USA, and lived in a few states (7 ?) and visited most parts of the countries I've lived in, USA & TH. TH, been to almost all provinces, more than a few times, living of 2 of them. Mostly semi rural living, at Udon Thank for 17 ish yrs, and Prachuap Khiri Khan 8 ish years

Think I can answer a few, if not all your queries:

Thailand consistently ranks at or near the top globally for road deaths. As reflexes slow and eyesight fades, is this really the environment you want to be navigating daily?

... I feel safer driving here than in the USA. One person has hit our car here, and it was my fault. USA, 6 people have hit me, all their fault. I also feel safer driving a MC here, as people don't respect them in USA, or look out for them while driving. Everyone is quite aware of MC here.

Air pollution is not just an inconvenience. For older lungs and hearts it can mean chronic breathing issues or worse. Burning season is not a meme when you are seventy.

... My biggest pet peeve, and only real negative about TH. I wouldn't live anywhere above Chumphon if moving to TH for the 1st time. The air pollution is that bad above Chumphon. 3-4-5+ months a year, depending where you live.

Heat tolerance drops as you age. Long humid days that feel merely uncomfortable at fifty can become exhausting and dangerous later on.

... Heat can be brutally hot with high humid, its the tropics. Cool season is nice, but doesn't last long. If you can't tolerate the heat, TH probably isn't for you.

Private hospitals are excellent but also brutally expensive if you do not have top tier international insurance. Public hospitals are another story and not always reassuring for complex age related care.

... I've self insured my whole life, and few jobs offered health insurance, which I never really needed. If you health issues or run in the family, I'd stay in home country with your universal insurance. If a Yank, sort of doesn't matter, as I've had surgery and procedures done here, that the USA premiums & deductibles cost way more than simply paying for yourself out of pocket here, TH.

Social safety nets are thin. If things go wrong financially or medically, you are largely on your own in a foreign system as a second class citizen.

... They are not thin, they don't exist at all, unless you work here, and on their healthcare system, or employer provides.

Long term care is rarely discussed. Assisted living, dementia care, and end of life support are not cheap or straightforward here.

... See above, don't expect any help financially or medically. You are on your own, plan accordingly.

None of this means Thailand is bad. It clearly works very well for a lot of people right now.

The question is whether it still works when you are no longer mobile, independent, or resilient. When the margin for error shrinks.

... Plan for the worse, financially, or stay where you are.

Is Thailand really a place to grow old in or is it a place that works best only while you are still healthy enough to enjoy the advantages?

... Plan your retirement properly, with way more money than you'll think you'll need. Every location is what you make out of it. It's just a location. Do your research and plan accordingly. I'm 71, enjoyed being single, enjoy being married w/family. No plans on leaving, and have never 'seriously' thought about leaving. I can probably live anywhere, financially, so I'm here by choice.

I agree with a lot of what you said however the long-term care unless you have a very good policy in the US is simply not affordable I have a good friend whose mother is in a facility right now paying $11,000 a month, and the nurses are nasty. I know of a good facility in Chiang Mai that costs about $2,500 a month for the same care.

Also the public hospitals here can be quite good if you know how to pick them, there is one in Bangkok that's absolutely amazing. As good as any private hospital I've been to in the US, at about 1% of the price. And in addition the nurses have a great attitude, which is the polar opposite of what you get in America at a hospital. The doctors are good and the care is on par if not better than American hospital care.

I do agree about the heat and I certainly agree about the air quality, which is a horrendous problem that Thailand is going to have to fix sooner or later. People are dying from it.

As far as the heat you have to be hearty and if you're delicate or not used to it than it's likely not for you. From about mid-march until early June when the rain start I stay indoors most of the day, enjoying the AC, and go out in the evening or at night. My bike rides and workouts are also done very early in the morning when the temperatures are tolerable.

Also I try to do as much traveling during the months of April and May as possible, so oftentimes I'm outside of the country and I come back just in time for the rains to start which is delightful.

Overall Thailand is very much a state of mind and if you are able to attune yourself to the joys of this place the quality of life can be very high. I don't get that in America, I might if I was a centimillionaire, but I'm not. Everything there is so fabulously overpriced these days, it's really quite disgusting. And the division, The dissent, the bitterness, the lack of humor, the lack of levity, and the way that everything revolves around money back there is just not a life that I want to live.

Though I would live back there for 3 years if somebody offered me a stipend of $3 million dollars a year, that's literally what it would take. I like to say everyday in Thailand is a good day, at least for me.

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I like to say everyday in Thailand is a good day, at least for me.

Same for me, and pointing out I've been here 25+ years with no intention of leaving, I'm assuming the OP would figure that out. After 25 years, 'still Loving it', and was a good fit for me, but definitely not for everyone.

I simply answered his thought, queries with mine, pretty much agreeing what he has already researched or figured out. His negatives, kind of simply verified.

OP didn't give much personal info of situation, financial or relationship wise, so didn't bother speculating or offering any advice, beside simply stating I enjoyed being single & married.

Well. it's always about plan B, isn't it? As I understand it, palliative care in Thailand is pretty limited. If I contract something painful, I might want to go back home to die among strangers. Not a pleasant prospect. As someone mentioned above, my wife, granddaughter and in-laws + dogs would look after me if I went into a slow decline, so I prefer to end here, possibly a few years earlier than if I had gone back home.

I don't have private health insurance, back home (Switzerland) I would immediately receive first class care.

Thoughtful choices are important, but a 'smart' place to retire is not my top priority. I'm more interested in a 'pleasurable' place to retire.

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Air pollution is not just an inconvenience. For older lungs and hearts it can mean chronic breathing issues or worse. Burning season is not a meme when you are seventy.

... My biggest pet peeve, and only real negative about TH. I wouldn't live anywhere above Chumphon if moving to TH for the 1st time. The air pollution is that bad above Chumphon. 3-4-5+ months a year, depending where you live.

Interestingly (and amazingly) government burning policies may have developed teeth over the last couple of years. Air quality up here in the North was significantly better last year.

11 minutes ago, Base32 said:

Interestingly (and amazingly) government burning policies may have developed teeth over the last couple of years. Air quality up here in the North was significantly better last year.

And surprisingly good this year too!

47 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I agree with a lot of what you said however the long-term care unless you have a very good policy in the US is simply not affordable I have a good friend whose mother is in a facility right now paying $11,000 a month, and the nurses are nasty. I know of a good facility in Chiang Mai that costs about $2,500 a month for the same care.

Also the public hospitals here can be quite good if you know how to pick them, there is one in Bangkok that's absolutely amazing. As good as any private hospital I've been to in the US, at about 1% of the price. And in addition the nurses have a great attitude, which is the polar opposite of what you get in America at a hospital. The doctors are good and the care is on par if not better than American hospital care.

I do agree about the heat and I certainly agree about the air quality, which is a horrendous problem that Thailand is going to have to fix sooner or later. People are dying from it.

As far as the heat you have to be hearty and if you're delicate or not used to it than it's likely not for you. From about mid-march until early June when the rain start I stay indoors most of the day, enjoying the AC, and go out in the evening or at night. My bike rides and workouts are also done very early in the morning when the temperatures are tolerable.

Also I try to do as much traveling during the months of April and May as possible, so oftentimes I'm outside of the country and I come back just in time for the rains to start which is delightful.

Overall Thailand is very much a state of mind and if you are able to attune yourself to the joys of this place the quality of life can be very high. I don't get that in America, I might if I was a centimillionaire, but I'm not. Everything there is so fabulously overpriced these days, it's really quite disgusting. And the division, The dissent, the bitterness, the lack of humor, the lack of levity, and the way that everything revolves around money back there is just not a life that I want to live.

Though I would live back there for 3 years if somebody offered me a stipend of $3 million dollars a year, that's literally what it would take. I like to say everyday in Thailand is a good day, at least for me.

Staying inside for months at a time is not a good thing, and one of the many reasons we'll leave. Texas is actually hotter on average, but they do have cold periods and less rain, and you can enjoy the outdoors almost any day.

What you said about America is mirrored here, ......."it's really quite disgusting. And the division, The dissent, the bitterness, the lack of humor, the lack of levity, and the way that everything revolves around money back there is just not a life that I want to live". Add to that the corruption, disregard for life, children and animals, backstabbing, gossip about "friends", the horrendous driving conditions and scamming and it's a lot worse off here than back home. Take away the younger girls who are with foreigners for money, and you don't have much left besides the cost of living and beaches. The food you can get anywhere.

The retired have Medicare in the US, with hospitals and doctors that are among the best worldwide. You don't stay in a place just because you ca get cheaper medical care, as living in a place that doesn't suit you is the cause for many health problems, like the air in many places here.

45 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Same for me, and pointing out I've been here 25+ years with no intention of leaving, I'm assuming the OP would figure that out. After 25 years, 'still Loving it', and was a good fit for me, but definitely not for everyone.

Same for me, but would point out about 50% of the white guys I've encountered here, had to return home completely broke. But they all built and lived in some really nice big expensive homes with their Thai wives ...........

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Staying inside for months at a time is not a good thing, and one of the many reasons we'll leave. Texas is actually hotter on average, but they do have cold periods and less rain, and you can enjoy the outdoors almost any day.

I'm out cycling every day (just finished), unless it's been raining in which case it's 5Km walking around the park.

Why would you stay inside?

The weather at dawn is always amazing, no matter what the season.

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

I'm out cycling every day, unless it's been raining in which case it's 5Km walking around the park.

Why would you stay inside?

The weather at dawn is always amazing, no matter what the season.

I don't stay inside much unless it's pouring out. The rainy season doesn't allow you to enjoy the outdoors but a certain part of the day, maybe. True, you can walk in the rain, but I prefer 4 seasons, no extremes, and a balance.

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Same for me, but would point out about 50% of the white guys I've encountered here, had to return home completely broke. But they all built and lived in some really nice big expensive homes with their Thai wives ...........

My wife's family bought the house. I rent it from them. I got to approve which house to purchase based upon whether I liked the moo ban pool.

As I enter my 60's I've been lucky enough to spend the majority of the last 25 years based/living in Thailand. Sadly I reached the point last year where I felt it was no longer the place I wanted to grow old. Not an instant decision or a reflection on my values or needs changing significantly, more a gradual decline in the quality of the environment around me and third party factors outside of my control.

I genuinely think Thailand has gone steadily backwards since the military took control a decade ago. I think this is borne out in economic performance and many other benchmarks you care to look at. While you could argue politics doesn't directly us as foreigners, a happy and economically prosperous populace led by a competent forward looking government and system acting in the interests of the majority does in so many ways. Unfortunately I see little hope for a country where the future majority of that country are having their wishes ignored by a corrupt entrenched self interested elite.

Will today mark a turning point for the better or will Thailand continue on its downward path while its neighbours move further ahead or catch up. I'm not optimistic and prefer to appreciate the good times I had but accept I need to move on given time is a precious commodity now more than ever at my stage of life.

I guess I will live and see if it was a smart choice to change my mind again. Now we are going to get fully invested in Thailand and not back home as we intended to do for a decade or two.

It was a reality chock moving back for a few years, and a good experience to finely make up my mind where I wanted to be.

Thank you everyone for all of your good feedback. All interesting food for thought.

46 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Staying inside for months at a time is not a good thing, and one of the many reasons we'll leave. Texas is actually hotter on average, but they do have cold periods and less rain, and you can enjoy the outdoors almost any day.

What you said about America is mirrored here, ......."it's really quite disgusting. And the division, The dissent, the bitterness, the lack of humor, the lack of levity, and the way that everything revolves around money back there is just not a life that I want to live". Add to that the corruption, disregard for life, children and animals, backstabbing, gossip about "friends", the horrendous driving conditions and scamming and it's a lot worse off here than back home. Take away the younger girls who are with foreigners for money, and you don't have much left besides the cost of living and beaches. The food you can get anywhere.

The retired have Medicare in the US, with hospitals and doctors that are among the best worldwide. You don't stay in a place just because you ca get cheaper medical care, as living in a place that doesn't suit you is the cause for many health problems, like the air in many places here.

I don't stay in my house for months at a time I go out nearly every day it's just that if I have a choice I go out in the evening when it's cooler and more pleasant. I don't think anything could ever take me back to the US which I find to be a depressing and broken down nation. I really like the attitude of the Thai people, I find them to be incredibly pleasant, and so much more fun to be around than the average American.

18 minutes ago, kinyara said:

While you could argue politics doesn't directly us as foreigners, a happy and economically prosperous populace led by a competent forward looking government and system acting in the interests of the majority does in so many ways.

Politics does play a role, particularly because political decisions shape economic outcomes over time. While the effects may not always be immediate or obvious for foreign retirees, Thailand is falling behind other Southeast Asian countries and is projected to drop from the second largest economy in the region to the fifth within the next four to five years and will fall behind Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, and possibly others. This trend is largely driven by prolonged political stagnation and government policies that are not focused on encouraging economic growth or expanding the middle class. Although foreign retirees may not feel a direct impact right away, long term economic under performance eventually places strain on infrastructure, public services, healthcare quality, and overall cost of living. Through this broader trickle down effect, political and economic stagnation can influence quality of life for foreign residents as well as locals.

The 10 minute video below from Bloomberg, which includes commentary from local Thai journalists, addresses many of these issues and explains the fundamental structural problems, which sadly seem unlikely to change in any meaningful way in the near term, regardless of political changes that may begin to occur in the short term.

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I don't stay in my house for months at a time I go out nearly every day it's just that if I have a choice I go out in the evening when it's cooler and more pleasant. I don't think anything could ever take me back to the US which I find to be a depressing and broken down nation. I really like the attitude of the Thai people, I find them to be incredibly pleasant, and so much more fun to be around than the average American.

The US hasn't changed much as far as I've seen, regarding the people themselves. There will always be those who cause trouble and chaos, both here and there. What you don't know is how the people here really see you behind the smiles. There are certainly decent people all around in every country, but when you are looked at more for the money you spend and less on how you are, it comes clear the motives of many.

The US is still exactly the same as far as what you can enjoy, as much of the time a person has, besides spending time with loved ones, is spent doing things you like, which shouldn't involve others but be personal, like hobbies. What you can do here you can do there. Like I've always said, you need to be comfortable where you lay your hat, and we aren't citizens here besides a few. A suppressed society is also afraid of complaining, even though they have good reasons. That's why the US has thousands still moving there yearly. Freedom is always a good thing.

41 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

The US hasn't changed much as far as I've seen, regarding the people themselves. There will always be those who cause trouble and chaos, both here and there. What you don't know is how the people here really see you behind the smiles. There are certainly decent people all around in every country, but when you are looked at more for the money you spend and less on how you are, it comes clear the motives of many.

The US is still exactly the same as far as what you can enjoy, as much of the time a person has, besides spending time with loved ones, is spent doing things you like, which shouldn't involve others but be personal, like hobbies. What you can do here you can do there. Like I've always said, you need to be comfortable where you lay your hat, and we aren't citizens here besides a few. A suppressed society is also afraid of complaining, even though they have good reasons. That's why the US has thousands still moving there yearly. Freedom is always a good thing.

The change I see is the polarization of society between the rich and the poor and the left and the right.

The middle class is shrinking and politically there are few moderates left. The present administration has everyone on edge and many Americans have completely lost faith in their local and national government.

6 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

The change I see is the polarization of society between the rich and the poor and the left and the right.

The middle class is shrinking and politically there are few moderates left. The present administration has everyone on edge and many Americans have completely lost faith in their local and national government.

I saw this coming when Trump ran again. I would think there would be more candidates than those few, seeing there are plenty of politicians in the states that do good jobs in their localities. I do hope Trump does some good besides kicking illegals out. More for the average Joe.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

The US hasn't changed much as far as I've seen, regarding the people themselves. There will always be those who cause trouble and chaos, both here and there. What you don't know is how the people here really see you behind the smiles. There are certainly decent people all around in every country, but when you are looked at more for the money you spend and less on how you are, it comes clear the motives of many.

The US is still exactly the same as far as what you can enjoy, as much of the time a person has, besides spending time with loved ones, is spent doing things you like, which shouldn't involve others but be personal, like hobbies. What you can do here you can do there. Like I've always said, you need to be comfortable where you lay your hat, and we aren't citizens here besides a few. A suppressed society is also afraid of complaining, even though they have good reasons. That's why the US has thousands still moving there yearly. Freedom is always a good thing.

Well we all have a different point of view and I am thankful for that life would be pretty boring if we all thought the same. What may be a pleasant country for you is hellaciously boring and stifling for many of us. In terms of what the masses think about me it means less than zero I've never been concerned about what Strangers think about me. I have a lot of Thai and expat friends, I'm very popular amongst my wife's friends, and that's really all that matters to me. The rest means absolutely nothing.

And I never really fit in in the US either, so not feeling the need to belong is a very advantageous quality to have.