10 hours ago, kwilco said:

so who do you think they are?

Who are the indigenous tribes of England? Do an internet search if you want a list.

What point are you trying to make?

26 minutes ago, RayC said:

Who are the indigenous tribes of England? Do an internet search if you want a list.

What point are you trying to make?

I'm questioning the relevance and validity of the concept – that the expression is meaningless, doesn't make a point and is profoundly artificial and ignorant – it's just racism in disguise – Britain has been populated by immigrants for centuries, or even millennia. If someone answers the question, I should be able to point out the flaws in their premise – I note you can't answer for a start.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by kwilco

33 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I'm questioning the relevance and validity of the concept – that the expression is meaningless, doesn't make a point and is profoundly artificial and ignorant – it's just racism in disguise – Britain has been populated by immigrants for centuries, or even millennia. If someone answers the question, I should be able to point out the flaws in their premise – I note you can't answer for a start.

Answer what question? Frame in a way that I can understand and I will try to do so.

I have given you my definition of 'Ethnic English' and explained throughout this thread why I think that it is a meaningless concept when used to describe living Englishmen.

If you think otherwise, it's up to you to explain why.

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

"Mongrels".

Racist Ray continues his nasty campaign of ethnic deconstruction and anti white racism.

Mongrel, noun, an individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds (see breed entry 2 sense 1) or strains (see strain entry 1 sense 1)

especially : one of unknown ancestry (Source: Merriam Webster dictionary)

What is racist about that? That's right, nothing. It is a term which applies to 99.999...% of Englishmen living today.

Jonny won't admit to his own racism and therefore resorts to lies, diversary tactics and the false labelling of others in order to avoid doing so.

Dishonest, sad and pathetic.

48 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Britain has been populated by immigrants for centuries, or even millennia.

Yeah, ok.

You're right.

There's a whole lot of immigrants everywhere.

So instead of forming teams based on nationality, they should just take the 200 best players in the world and form 6 or 8 teams or whatever.

And then we are just watching the best players compete.

We don't care where they're from, their nationality, their race, their skin color.

And neither do we need to have their country's flag waved in our face every 10 minutes and base the entire tournament on "national pride".

Time to abolish The World Cup and bring in the All-Star Cup.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by save the frogs

14 minutes ago, RayC said:

Mongrel, noun, an individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds (see breed entry 2 sense 1) or strains (see strain entry 1 sense 1)

especially : one of unknown ancestry (Source: Merriam Webster dictionary)

What is racist about that? That's right, nothing. It is a term which applies to 99.999...% of Englishmen living today.

Jonny won't admit to his own racism and therefore resorts to lies, diversary tactics and the false labelling of others in order to avoid doing so.

Dishonest, sad and pathetic.

I’m quite certain there is a disconnect between the views he expressed here in the forum and those he expresses face to face with people at work or in social settings.

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Maybe you could explain to Anthony Joshua that he is not ethnically Nigerian as he claims but is in fact ethnically English.

Tell him to stop being such a massive fake. You know his ethnicity, not him.

Remove the Africa tattoo. Stop celebrating his heritage. Stop with all that "Nigerian" baloney. Stop with those projects in his homeland. He's ethnically English. You can tell just by looking at him. 😀

Tell him Ray. His Nigerian pride is interfering with your boomer leftist one world, no borders, no ethnicity narrative. 😀

Conversation between Anthony Joshua and RayC

AJ: Do you think that I am English?

RayC: Were you born in England? Is your nationality, British? Do you think of yourself as English?

AJ: Yes

RayC: Then you are English

AJ: As English as you? A white Englishman

RayC: Yes

AJ: But I also feel Nigerian?

RayC: You have roots in Nigeria.

AJ: So am I Nigerian?

RayC: Imo if you have an ancestral tie to Nigeria, feel an affinity with Nigeria and its culture, then I don't see why you shouldn't also identify yourself as Nigerian? Why should you be limited to having one identity?

JonnyF joins the discussion

Jonny F: You are black, AJ, therefore you are not ethnically English?

AJ: What does that mean? You're more English than me? Should I be treated differently to you?

Jonny F: You're a racist, AJ.

RayC: Somebody call an ambulance for Jonny

Edited July 18Jul 18 by RayC

Once immigrants intermarry with locals and produce offspring, the national identity of their children is coloured, no pun intended.

In Thailand there are Thai- Chinese, Thais of Chinese heritage. Sometimes the only way to distinguish them is at Chinese New Year, many cannot speak Chinese or the Chinese dialects of their grandparents. They're Thai now.

So it's interesting to compare three groups of immigrants to the UK.

How many have intermarried with locals?

According to the final national census data tracking inter-ethnic relationships, approximately 48% of Black Caribbean men and 34% of Black Caribbean women in the UK who are married or living with a partner have intermarried outside their ethnic group.

West Indian (Caribbean) immigrants and their descendants have the highest rates of intermarriage and inter-ethnic partnerships of any established minority group in the UK.

what percentage of west indian immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

According to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), approximately 12% of people in the Indian ethnic group in England and Wales are in an inter-ethnic marriage or relationship.

what percentage of indian immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

In the UK, approximately 7.4% of Muslim men and 3.9% of Muslim women in partnerships are in interfaith or interethnic marriages, according to comprehensive demographic analyses of Office for National Statistics (ONS) data. Across all British Muslims, roughly 91% marry within their own faith and ethnic background, reflecting one of the highest rates of religious endogamy among minority groups in England and Wales.

what percentage of muslim immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

Then I asked about the children of first generation immigrants. What percentage intermarry?

European Descendants: They have the highest rates of intermarriage. Second-generation individuals of European origin are 90% less likely to form an endogamous (co-ethnic) marriage than an exogamous one, meaning the vast majority marry native British partners.

1. Caribbean Descendants: They hold a high-to-intermediate position for mixing. Second-generation individuals of Caribbean descent are only 1.3 times more likely to marry within their own group than outside it, with more than half of Black Caribbean men partnering outside their ethnicity.

2. Indian Descendants: They occupy a middle ground that shows clear signs of generational change. Second-generation British Indians are 1.5 times more likely to marry within their group than outside it, showing a significant rise in intermarriage compared to the first generation.

3. Pakistani and Bangladeshi Descendants: This group maintains the lowest rates of intermarriage. Second-generation individuals of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin remain 7.9 times more likely to marry within their own ethnic or religious group than outside it, often driven by strong community norms and faith.

what percentage of second generation immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

Apart from intermarrying, one factor that may determine national identity is cultural assimilation.

There are plenty of Muslim children in British schools, interacting with locals and other races. They grow up speaking fluent English, sometimes with a local accent. They work in a variety of jobs. How British are they?

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Jonny F: You're a racist, AJ.

But teams like France, who seemingly cannot find 3 or 4 white french nationals in a country with 55 million white people out of 69 million are practically begging for racist remarks. Maybe it's a practical joke by Macron. Africa should be proud of France's accomplishments in this world Cup.

Time to end tournaments based on nationality.

Just give us the best 200 players in the world and divide them randomly into teams so we can take the tournament more seriously.

Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by save the frogs

10 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

But teams like France, who seemingly cannot find 3 or 4 white french nationals in a country with 55 million white people out of 69 million are practically begging for racist remarks. Maybe it's a practical joke by Macron. Africa should be proud of France's accomplishments in this world Cup.

Time to end tournaments based on nationality.

Just give us the best 200 players in the world and divide them randomly into teams so we can take the tournament more seriously.

Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know.

For the 2026 FIFA World Cup, approximately 88.5% of the 26-man France national team roster was born in France. Specifically, 23 of the 26 players were born domestically, while the remaining three (Michael Olise, Marcus Thuram, and Brice Samba) were born abroad but hold French citizenship. [1, 2]

2 hours ago, bannork said:

Once immigrants intermarry with locals and produce offspring, the national identity of their children is coloured, no pun intended.

In Thailand there are Thai- Chinese, Thais of Chinese heritage. Sometimes the only way to distinguish them is at Chinese New Year, many cannot speak Chinese or the Chinese dialects of their grandparents. They're Thai now.

So it's interesting to compare three groups of immigrants to the UK.

How many have intermarried with locals?

According to the final national census data tracking inter-ethnic relationships, approximately 48% of Black Caribbean men and 34% of Black Caribbean women in the UK who are married or living with a partner have intermarried outside their ethnic group.

West Indian (Caribbean) immigrants and their descendants have the highest rates of intermarriage and inter-ethnic partnerships of any established minority group in the UK.

what percentage of west indian immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

According to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), approximately 12% of people in the Indian ethnic group in England and Wales are in an inter-ethnic marriage or relationship.

what percentage of indian immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

In the UK, approximately 7.4% of Muslim men and 3.9% of Muslim women in partnerships are in interfaith or interethnic marriages, according to comprehensive demographic analyses of Office for National Statistics (ONS) data. Across all British Muslims, roughly 91% marry within their own faith and ethnic background, reflecting one of the highest rates of religious endogamy among minority groups in England and Wales.

what percentage of muslim immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

Then I asked about the children of first generation immigrants. What percentage intermarry?

European Descendants: They have the highest rates of intermarriage. Second-generation individuals of European origin are 90% less likely to form an endogamous (co-ethnic) marriage than an exogamous one, meaning the vast majority marry native British partners.

1. Caribbean Descendants: They hold a high-to-intermediate position for mixing. Second-generation individuals of Caribbean descent are only 1.3 times more likely to marry within their own group than outside it, with more than half of Black Caribbean men partnering outside their ethnicity.

2. Indian Descendants: They occupy a middle ground that shows clear signs of generational change. Second-generation British Indians are 1.5 times more likely to marry within their group than outside it, showing a significant rise in intermarriage compared to the first generation.

3. Pakistani and Bangladeshi Descendants: This group maintains the lowest rates of intermarriage. Second-generation individuals of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin remain 7.9 times more likely to marry within their own ethnic or religious group than outside it, often driven by strong community norms and faith.

what percentage of second generation immigrants to the uk intermarry? - Google Search

Apart from intermarrying, one factor that may determine national identity is cultural assimilation.

There are plenty of Muslim children in British schools, interacting with locals and other races. They grow up speaking fluent English, sometimes with a local accent. They work in a variety of jobs. How British are they?

You missed at least one other ethnic-religious group from your thesis.

I wonder why?

3 hours ago, RayC said:

Mongrel, noun, an individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds (see breed entry 2 sense 1) or strains (see strain entry 1 sense 1)

especially : one of unknown ancestry (Source: Merriam Webster dictionary)

What is racist about that? That's right, nothing. It is a term which applies to 99.999...% of Englishmen living today.

Jonny won't admit to his own racism and therefore resorts to lies, diversary tactics and the false labelling of others in order to avoid doing so.

Dishonest, sad and pathetic.

Quite funny, Jonny getting upset by a hurty word that isn't even an actual hurty word.

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You missed at least one other ethnic-religious group from your thesis.

I wonder why?

Which group is that? I wasn't trying to do a comprehensive survey.

The far right contends that diversity is bad and that some immigrants can never integrate, primarily they mean Muslims, but some in the Restore Party want to expel all non Christians.

But as seen from my cursory survey, many immigrants, especially Afro Caribbeans, have intermarried and can be considered at least half British by race.

Indian society is notorious for its caste system but many Indians who move to Britain are educated, and in my view , increasingly intermarry with native Brits.

Far behind are Pakistanis, Somalians, and other Muslims, but with their kids growing up in British schools , how long before their cultural roots weaken and they increasingly adopt Western habits?

4 hours ago, save the frogs said:

But teams like France, who seemingly cannot find 3 or 4 white french nationals in a country with 55 million white people out of 69 million are practically begging for racist remarks. Maybe it's a practical joke by Macron. Africa should be proud of France's accomplishments in this world Cup.

Time to end tournaments based on nationality.

Just give us the best 200 players in the world and divide them randomly into teams so we can take the tournament more seriously.

Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You conclude by saying, "Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know", whilst in your first paragraph you lament the lack of white players in the French team.

6 hours ago, RayC said:

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You conclude by saying, "Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know", whilst in your first paragraph you lament the lack of white players in the French team.

I'm saying nationality is becoming less relevant.

And I would prefer they reorganize the tournament just based on the best 200 players in the world and scrap the nationalities altogether. But that will never happen.

If Macron isn't trolling us with his all black African descent team, then what's going on in France?

Are most of these players kids who grew up in the "banlieues" in France? Were they mostly from poor backgrounds? And are kids from these poor backgrounds excelling more at football because they don't go to school and play football all day or is the French government actively pushing these kids from the banlieues more in their football programs? Would be interesting to know how France is developing their players.

Platini was one of the all time greats, but all of a sudden only players of African descent can make the team?

And Platini was a star. But as I've mentioned, more than half the players on most of these teams are easily replaceable because they have mediocre talent. It's not that hard to build a team of diversity once the stars are chosen.

Edited July 18Jul 18 by save the frogs

17 hours ago, RayC said:

Conversation between Anthony Joshua and RayC

AJ: Do you think that I am English?

RayC: Were you born in England? Is your nationality, British? Do you think of yourself as English?

AJ: Yes

RayC: Then you are English

AJ: As English as you? A white Englishman

RayC: Yes

AJ: But I also feel Nigerian?

RayC: You have roots in Nigeria.

AJ: So am I Nigerian?

RayC: Imo if you have an ancestral tie to Nigeria, feel an affinity with Nigeria and its culture, then I don't see why you shouldn't also identify yourself as Nigerian? Why should you be limited to having one identity?

JonnyF joins the discussion

Jonny F: You are black, AJ, therefore you are not ethnically English?

AJ: What does that mean? You're more English than me? Should I be treated differently to you?

Jonny F: You're a racist, AJ.

RayC: Somebody call an ambulance for Jonny

AJ states very clearly he is ethnically Nigerian. He's proud of it.

He's correct.

I am correct.

You are wrong.

16 hours ago, save the frogs said:

But teams like France, who seemingly cannot find 3 or 4 white french nationals in a country with 55 million white people out of 69 million are practically begging for racist remarks. Maybe it's a practical joke by Macron. Africa should be proud of France's accomplishments in this world Cup.

Time to end tournaments based on nationality.

Just give us the best 200 players in the world and divide them randomly into teams so we can take the tournament more seriously.

Nobody cares where you come from. I don't want to know.

France v Senegal and France vs. Ivory Coast were interesting games.

Immigrants vs future immigrants. I think there was one white guy on the field.

The losers final between France and England, was also striking that around 80% of players were of African descent.

Yet no liberals tears for the under representation of white people. No calls for DEI.

Curious.

Look forward to a good quality final between the Spanish and the Argentinians tonight. The two best teams in the tournament.

Those male supremacists mentioned are a group of tired, disillusioned, sorry, pathetic men, with fortunes made by a society that has become warped and misguided.

Social media is a sign that we are in fast decline as a civilization.

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

France v Senegal and France vs. Ivory Coast were interesting games.

Immigrants vs future immigrants. I think there was one white guy on the field.

The losers final between France and England, was also striking that around 80% of players were of African descent.

Yet no liberals tears for the under representation of white people. No calls for DEI.

Curious.

Look forward to a good quality final between the Spanish and the Argentinians tonight. The two best teams in the tournament.

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

France v Senegal and France vs. Ivory Coast were interesting games.

Immigrants vs future immigrants. I think there was one white guy on the field.

The losers final between France and England, was also striking that around 80% of players were of African descent.

Yet no liberals tears for the under representation of white people. No calls for DEI.

Curious.

Look forward to a good quality final between the Spanish and the Argentinians tonight. The two best teams in the tournament.

The France England game was wonderful to watch. Entertaining, attacking football played with a sense of fair play by both teams.

France were asleep in the first half but once they woke up the match could so easily have gone either way.

By contrast tonight one can expect to see regular niggling fouls by the Argentinians, experts at the dark side of the game.

A few flashes of brilliance interspersed with shirt pulling and time wasting.

Good luck to both sides, especially Spain, lol

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

AJ states very clearly he is ethnically Nigerian. He's proud of it.

He's correct.

I am correct.

You are wrong.

I have never denied AJ his ethnicity

He's correct

You are wrong about everything else that you postulate throughout this thread. For example, those of Norman stock are no more ethnically English than Black Englishmen

You have no valid counter argument when challenged to defend your propositions

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

France v Senegal and France vs. Ivory Coast were interesting games.

Immigrants vs future immigrants. I think there was one white guy on the field.

The losers final between France and England, was also striking that around 80% of players were of African descent.

Yet no liberals tears for the under representation of white people. No calls for DEI.

Curious.

Look forward to a good quality final between the Spanish and the Argentinians tonight. The two best teams in the tournament.

Woe is me! I've said before and you confirm my belief once again: Your misplaced sense of victim hood knows no bounds.

I'm take your comment at face value. Why should there be a DEI initiative to 'correct' the under presentation of white players in the England and France squads?

The coaches - both white men - picked what they considered to be the best squads. You may disagree with some of the selections - I do - but the final selections have nothing to do with favouring black players over white ones. If Deschamps and Tuchel had thought that there were better white players available, they would have been selected. The opportunity was there for all players irrespective of colour.

I can't resist another dig. Of course, there is the possibility that both Deschamps and Tuchel are self-loathing, liberal, white men who yearn to be black. Tuchel may also be anti-English. He is German after all.

17 hours ago, RayC said:

Woe is me! I've said before and you confirm my belief once again: Your misplaced sense of victim hood knows no bounds.

I'm take your comment at face value. Why should there be a DEI initiative to 'correct' the under presentation of white players in the England and France squads?

GeographicReference

Oh I see, 2 tier DEI. How predictable. When black people are under-represented we must have DEI to fix it. When it's white people under-represented, we must pretend they are incapable and black people are simply better. Reminds me of Eni Aluko's argument to Andrew Gold (for which she was rightly mocked - check the video and comments below).

WOKE TV Host Makes a FOOL of Herself in DEI Debate – Eni Aluko

17 hours ago, RayC said:

The coaches - both white men - picked what they considered to be the best squads. You may disagree with some of the selections - I do - but the final selections have nothing to do with favouring black players over white ones. If Deschamps and Tuchel had thought that there were better white players available, they would have been selected. The opportunity was there for all players irrespective of colour.

I can't resist another dig. Of course, there is the possibility that both Deschamps and Tuchel are self-loathing, liberal, white men who yearn to be black. Tuchel may also be anti-English. He is German after all.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tuchel had been influenced by the ultra woke, knee taking, rainbow lace promoting leftist organisation, the FA, to pick a mostly black side.

The left clearly thought that an England win with "diverse" players would unite the nation behind diversity. The likes of The Guardian showed their hand and shot their load too early and started celebrating it before we won. They've suddenly gone very quiet after the semi final results.

We were awful. No creativity. Foden/Palmer left behind. Not even in the squad. A German coach substituting our goal scorer in the final and putting Dan Burn (a centre back) up front. Bizarre. We deserved to lose. Well done Spain (unfortunately Raymond your great hope for Spanish diversity, Yamine Lamal, under-performed in the tournament).

18 hours ago, RayC said:

I have never denied AJ his ethnicity

Ethnic& Identity Groups

He's correct

You were claiming children of immigrants born in England are ethnically English. You called me racist when I pointed out the fact that they are not.

Now you've walked that back. I think you owe me an apology Ray. Seems you can't tell black British people to deny their true ethnicity after all. Seems you don't get to erase their heritage like you try to do to the English. 😄

At least you've admitted you were wrong for once. Embarrassing, Ray.😄

20 hours ago, bannork said:

The France England game was wonderful to watch. Entertaining, attacking football played with a sense of fair play by both teams.

Because it was more like a testimonial. A friendly. An exhibition. Not a serious game. Barely any tackles.

Anyone who knows anything about football would know that. 😄

17 hours ago, RayC said:

If Deschamps and Tuchel had thought that there were better white players available, they would have been selected.

Nah, you've completely dismissed all my arguments just so you can continue to ram your opinions down people's throats.

Please go do some research into how France is training their youth. There must be something shady going on favoring the immigrants in the banlieues.

And please don't tell me every player on every team is of such a high caliber that they cannot easily be replaced. You are deluded about the entire sport of football if you believe that. 80 per cent of players are mediocre and can easily be replaced.

Edited July 20Jul 20 by save the frogs

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because it was more like a testimonial. A friendly. An exhibition. Not a serious game. Barely any tackles.

Anyone who knows anything about football would know that. 😄

I didn't watch it, but the score would suggest that.

Very unusual high-scoring game suggests neither team treated it seriously.

Spain-Argentina was a sad sight to behold. The dark side of the sport reared its head, overly defensive, and barely any scoring opportunities. Messi hardly touched the ball. Most boring match in the history of the world. Feel sorry for people who traveled across the planet and paid 1000 dollars for tickets. What a sad way for Messi to end his world cup career. Barely noticeable out there.

Or maybe die-hard harcore football fans insist it was a good match?

After watching that match, I think they should completely revamp the sport. Maybe remove 2 players on each side to avoid all these low-scoring borefests and give talented players a chance to shine more.

Yes indeed, the dark side of the sport. When it's a snoozefest, it's a snoozefest. It can be a great sport, but it's also the only sport where absolutely nothing can transpire for 90 minutes.

Seriously, I would change the rules of the game after all the FIFA fans were robbed of a decent final.

Trump was there. I'm sure now he and millions of other americans are convinced this sport sucks if they weren't already.

Edited July 20Jul 20 by save the frogs

Good to see Spain dominate and beat the Argentinians who displayed their usual dirty tactics of frequent fouls.

I remember Sir Alf calling them animals in 1966. They've improved since then but foul play is never far from their minds.

Wonderful play from the just 19 year old Spanish player,Lamine Yamal, born to a Moroccan father and Equatorial Guinean mother

How ironic as a baby he was bathed in a 2007 UNICEF charity photo shoot by a 20 year old Lionel Messi!

The sore loser mentality of Argentina on full display.

48 minutes ago, bannork said:

Good to see Spain dominate and beat the Argentinians who displayed their usual dirty tactics of frequent fouls.

Yes, and a religious zealot whose God is football, you will never admit that Spain's style of play should not even be allowed as it brings the entire match to crawling standstill as 90% of the play is in the neutral zone. Which is far worse than Argentin's fouls.

You still find this entertaining somehow.

Meanwhile, Spain did a disservice promoting the sport in the US as more Americans undoubtedly think it's a boring sport after watching that final.

It's not always a boring sport. There were some great matches in the tournament, but Spain's style of play should practically be banned with new rules. FIFA needs to consider changing the rules after this dreadfully boring match.

That's what I got from it.

And FIFA should look into what France is doing to promote its players while they're at it.

Edited July 20Jul 20 by save the frogs

55 minutes ago, bannork said:

Wonderful play from the just 19 year old Spanish player,Lamine Yamal, born to a Moroccan father and Equatorial Guinean mother

Yes, Moroccan people should be proud.

Even though their team didn't make it, someone with Moroccan ancestry is the best player on the winning team.

Nice job, Morocco.