Flight OG269: At Least 88 Bodies Found At Phuket Airport Crash Site

[Ricardo]

I read before something that airlines from (registered in TH) thailand who

have just flights inside this country must have a thai-pilot,

Since One-Two-Go operate regular scheduled flights to other countries, including from Phuket, any such rule would not have applied in any case.

[UnknownPoster]

Very similar to the Surat Thani crash some years ago.

Missed approach in bad weather and tried again....

[Supaporn]

Unfortunately, 1-2-Go is on record as "chancing it".

Christ! That's a serious thing to say. What's the source?

AIRCRAFT & REGN: L-1011 of Orient Thai

PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS: Argument over immediate departure with residual hot brakes.

CIRCUMSTANCES: Flight engineer baggage & FE offloaded by captain and next leg flown as two-man crew.

DEATH & INJURY: Nil

------------------------------------

Thai charter aircraft almost hits Tokyo Tower

Airline Industry Information, Oct 18, 2004

An Orient Thai charter aircraft came within 200 metres of striking the Tokyo Tower in Tokyo, Japan in September according the Japanese Transport Ministry.

The aircraft was carrying no passengers at the time as it was flying to Tokyo to operate a flight to Phuket in Thailand. The Boeing 747-200 aircraft reportedly nearly hit the Tokyo Tower just after midnight on 19 September 2004 as it was coming in to land at Haneda airport.

A spokesperson for Orient Thai Airlines said that the captain of the aircraft had failed to explain to his crew the content of a manual on landing at Haneda airport and has now been suspended, reports Reuters.

--------------------------------------

The above are from Air Safety Week's newsletter.

I've posted a lot in the past on other incidents and we've had at least one member quit working for them, allegedly over safety issues.

I could add a few more - but besides their lousy maintenance etc, Khun Udom onced sacked a pilot because he refused to fly (i.e. take off and fly to BKK) an L-1011 (3 engine aircraft) with 2 engines (one engine was unserviceable)..... how do you like those policies for a 'safe airline'??

The list could go on and on and on

[Ricardo]

One minor observation, regarding the position of the aircraft,after the crash.

TV-pictures appear to show that the aircraft is beyond the end of the runway, and well-off to one-side, where it has impacted with a berm or side of a hill, which fits with the plane having landed from the (western) seaward-end of the runway and bounced/over-run at the (eastern) jungle-end.

However the tail of the plane, which appears still partly-attached to the fuselage, is furthest away from the end of the runway, which is visible in the background beyond the crash.

Which suggests that the aircraft may have spun round 180* from the direction of landing, during the landing, or when impacting the berm after running past the end of the runway.

[Suszzy]

very sad day!!

may all rest in peace.

[dekka007]

And your point is?? Yes every pilot once had 250 hours.... but is it wise or sane to put them at the controls of an airliner with hundreds of peoples lives in their hands at that point? At 250 hours these guys had only seen a single engine recip engine with a propellor out front. You logic amazes me - but then...... maybe not.

Is your name Khun Udom?

This policy is almost world standard now with ALL major airlines in the UK for example taking Frozen ATPL applicants - all beit not all are successful. I am not saying I agree with the recruitment of these guys however I have flown with some on airliners who are very competent operators.

I guess the problem here is the training facilities / instruction of the new atpl holders is not as high standard as some other countries. Am I concerned when I fly with a frozen ATPL holder with 250 hours - actually no I am not - in can at times increase the workload but not to a dangerous extent. Indeed my own airline just recruited a 250 hour onto the airbus here in asia - however he was trained in europe.

[mr_hippo]

And your point is?? Yes every pilot once had 250 hours.... but is it wise or sane to put them at the controls of an airliner with hundreds of peoples lives in their hands at that point? At 250 hours these guys had only seen a single engine recip engine with a propellor out front. You logic amazes me - but then...... maybe not.

Is your name Khun Udom?

You can learn to drive in a Honda Jazz and then 'move up' to a BMW 7 series but you cannot learn to fly in a Cessna 150 and then 'move up' to a Boeing 747 automatically.

[cdnvic]

Do you really believe that a pilot would be allowed to be in charge of an airliner if he is not fit for it .... ?

Do you want us to include the Orient Thai/One Two Go pilots who almost hit the ATC tower in Tokyo, or ejected one of the crew who refused to fly with dodgy brakes?

Blind faith gets people killed.

Edited September 17, 2007 by cdnvic

[Supaporn]

And your point is?? Yes every pilot once had 250 hours.... but is it wise or sane to put them at the controls of an airliner with hundreds of peoples lives in their hands at that point? At 250 hours these guys had only seen a single engine recip engine with a propellor out front. You logic amazes me - but then...... maybe not.

Is your name Khun Udom?

You can learn to drive in a Honda Jazz and then 'move up' to a BMW 7 series but you cannot learn to fly in a Cessna 150 and then 'move up' to a Boeing 747 automatically.

...or even an MD82... but some people cannot grasp that concept.

[Supaporn]

Do you really believe that a pilot would be allowed to be in charge of an airliner if he is not fit for it .... ?

Do you want us to include the Orient Thai/One Two Go pilots who almost hit the ATC tower in Tokyo, or ejected one of the crew who refused to fly with dodgy brakes?

Blind faith gets people killed.

It was actually the Tokyo Tower ...downtown - on a visual approach...unless there is yet another Orient Thai story yet untold!?

[Who, me ?]

Do you really believe that a pilot would be allowed to be in charge of an airliner if he is not fit for it .... ?

Do you want us to include the Orient Thai/One Two Go pilots who almost hit the ATC tower in Tokyo, or ejected one of the crew who refused to fly with dodgy brakes?

Blind faith gets people killed.

You can ...... but once again, 250 hours experience is not relevant....then I agree that training, or even odd behavior, or company policy will make a difference.

[dekka007]

I know several pilots who completed their training on similar types as to Cessana 152, Piper Senecas and then secured their first job on B737, A320 and EMB145.

And a colleague who joined straight onto a widebody airbus which is twice the size of the MD82.

I really do not see the relevance to the thread discussing the pro's and con's of approved school frozen atpl holders.

[quiksilva]

Grave news indeed, my condolences to all affected.

I hope that justice will be served.

[Supaporn]

I know several pilots who completed their training on similar types as to Cessana 152, Piper Senecas and then secured their first job on B737, A320 and EMB145.

And a colleague who joined straight onto a widebody airbus which is twice the size of the MD82.

I really do not see the relevance to the thread discussing the pro's and con's of approved school frozen atpl holders.

Please share those carriers who hired Cessna (or like craft) pilots with 250 hours. I am sure there are MANY who would be keen to know - for a variety of reasons. Some to find jobs and then those of us who can avoid them like the plague.

edit/spelling

Edited September 17, 2007 by Supaporn

[dekka007]

BMI, British Airways, ,Easyjet, Ryanair, Flybe, Thomson - ALL UK Airlines with excellent safety records.

Cathay Pacific, DHL in Asia.

And many many more. I know I am one of them from 14 years ago.

Edited September 17, 2007 by dekka007

[cdnvic]

Be worth emailing them to confirm this.

[stevenl]

Dekka,

Thanks for the very useful insights, much appreciated.

3. Are you sure? Chance taking depends solely on the pilot(s) flying the plane, their experience levels and overall judgement. I think if one were to investigate, one might find that the experience levels of manyof 1-2-Gos pilots is seriously lacking and I, for one, would question the judgement and abilities of manyof their pilots.

4. True, fuel should not have been an issue. However, once past a certain level those diversion options go away fast. Orient Thai's fuel policies have not always been known to be the best and I for would would suspect that maybe their alternate fuel was not sufficient - IF - fuel was an issue.

It is comments like these we can do without.

[Supaporn]

BMI, British Airways, ,Easyjet, Ryanair, Flybe, Thomson - ALL UK Airlines with excellent safety records.

Cathay Pacific in Asia.

So you are telling me that CathayPacific and British Airways hires pilots with only 250 hours of recip time - TOTAL TIME??

Careful - your heretofore expertise is at stake.

[vanalli]

I have some pictures and a report from the scene on my blog for anybody interested. Was there most of last night. Will have more details as the day goes on. A sad event indeed.

[Supaporn]

Dekka,

Thanks for the very useful insights, much appreciated.

3. Are you sure? Chance taking depends solely on the pilot(s) flying the plane, their experience levels and overall judgement. I think if one were to investigate, one might find that the experience levels of manyof 1-2-Gos pilots is seriously lacking and I, for one, would question the judgement and abilities of manyof their pilots.

4. True, fuel should not have been an issue. However, once past a certain level those diversion options go away fast. Orient Thai's fuel policies have not always been known to be the best and I for would would suspect that maybe their alternate fuel was not sufficient - IF - fuel was an issue.

It is comments like these we can do without.

It is turning a blind eye to situations such as these that has the potential to kill people - but everyone has the right to think otherwise.

[dekka007]

So you are telling me that CathayPacific and British Airways hires pilots with only 250 hours of recip time - TOTAL TIME??

Careful - your heretofore expertise is at stake

Yes both hired graduates from British Aerospace Flying College in Prestwick Scotland. The course is known as an approved FROZEN ATPL Course which takes cadets from 0 hours to 250 hours with CPL/IR and ATPL/IR (Frozen) until 1500 hours total.

The college had the reputation of being in the top 5 in the world and BA and CX were their largest customers.

Its no great secret. Other graduates from this college included Emirates and Gulf Air cadets.

I graduated from there in 1993 - so I know what I am talking about.

Please do take a look at oxford air training college as an example.

Edited September 17, 2007 by dekka007

[LivinLOS]

It would appear that people are now starting to wash their hands of responsibility. The statement made by One2Go on television tonight, went down the lines of, we are not responsible. When it comes to Thailand it appears that no matter which way you look at it. Thai's and Falang get treated differently.

Ill-fated One-Two-Go aircraft not covered by local insurance

The One-Two-Go McDonnell Douglas MD 82 that crashed in Phuket on Sunday was not covered by local insurance, said Chantra Purnariksha, the head of the Office of the Insurance Commission.

Chantra said it is not yet known whether the aircraft, which was leased by OneTwoGo from a foreign company, is covered by foreign insurance or not, something that the insurance commission still needs to find out.

However, airline companies normally buy insurance to cover both the aircraft in operation and passengers.

Chantra said foreign passengers usually have their own life and accident insurance, but Thai passengers, who are now being treated at local hospitals, will be able to get compensation from OneTwoGo, which will have to pay hospital bills immediately. The airline can claim those costs from its foreign insurers later.

Chantra said that the General Insurance Association had confirmed that OneTwoGo did not have local insurance for the MD 82 that crashed. He added that he will try to find out whether the foreign owner of the MD 82, which had leased it to OneTwoGo, had insurance for the aircraft.

Relatives of the deceased from the accident seeking to claim damages from the provincial insurance office can call 1122 for further information. Payment and compensation will only be delivered after DNA verification checks have been conducted.

By Achara Pongvuthitham

That is one of the most disgusting comments I have ever read concerning a tragedy like this.. I just read it to a Thai and her reaction was also one of shock and also said "you treat falang like that why they gonna want to come here"... My thoughts entirely !!

Should lose his job over that !!

[Journalist]

^^ Perhaps airlines in Thailand should charge a mandatory medical insurance levy to add to ticket price?

THB 100 for Thais and THB 250 for foreigners

At least coverage is then assured in the unfortunate event of injury.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Journalist

[Supaporn]

So you are telling me that CathayPacific and British Airways hires pilots with only 250 hours of recip time - TOTAL TIME??

Careful - your heretofore expertise is at stake

Yes both hired graduates from British Aerospace Flying College in Prestwick Scotland. The course is known as an approved FROZEN ATPL Course which takes cadets from 0 hours to 250 hours with CPL/IR and ATPL/IR (Frozen) until 1500 hours total.

The college had the reputation of being in the top 5 in the world and BA and CX were their largest customers.

Its no great secret. Other graduates from this college included Emirates and Gulf Air cadets.

I graduated from there in 1993 - so I know what I am talking about.

Please do take a look at oxford air training college as an example.

Then you are talking apples and oranges, sir. UNTIL 1500 hours total is the operative part of the sentence. British Airways and Cathey et al do not put 250 hour pilots in their seats as has been suggested. They hire cadets to learn and are trained further - right? That being the case are far different from the likes of what I am speaking of.

[cdnvic]

^^ Perhaps airlines in Thailand should charge a mandatory medical insurance levy to add to ticket price?

THB 100 for Thais and THB 250 for foreigners

At least coverage is then assured in the unfortunate event of injury.

Though I agree it's pretty poor form to only compensate the Thais, any foreigner travelling without insurance is just plain foolish.

[dekka007]

Then you are talking apples and oranges, sir. UNTIL 1500 hours total is the operative part of the sentence. British Airways and Cathey et al do not put 250 hour pilots in their seats as has been suggested. They hire cadets to learn and are trained further - right? That being the case are far different from the likes of what I am speaking of.

Wth all due respect sir, you have not a clue what you are talking about. On graduation from the college BA cadets were First Officers on Boeing 757 and Boeing 737. The were fully trained paid first officers - ie second in command.

Now, Having a Frozen ATPL licence simply means you cannot fly as commander of an Airline Transport Category Aircraft until the licence is unfrozen ie you have achieve 1500 hours total.

Please do bear in mind with 250 hours you have a full commercial pilot licence.

[mr_hippo]

I know several pilots who completed their training on similar types as to Cessana 152, Piper Senecas and then secured their first job on B737, A320 and EMB145.

And a colleague who joined straight onto a widebody airbus which is twice the size of the MD82.

I really do not see the relevance to the thread discussing the pro's and con's of approved school frozen atpl holders.

I hope that you are not trying to say that a PPL holder with experience on a single engine prop can fly a multi engine jet without the proper licence.

[dekka007]

I hope that you are not trying to say that a PPL holder with experience on a single engine prop can fly a multi engine jet without the proper licence.

No. You need to have studied commercial pilot licence exams / tests not PPL. We are talking professional licences here not private.

[Burr]

BMI, British Airways, ,Easyjet, Ryanair, Flybe, Thomson - ALL UK Airlines with excellent safety records.

Cathay Pacific in Asia.

So you are telling me that CathayPacific and British Airways hires pilots with only 250 hours of recip time - TOTAL TIME??

Careful - your heretofore expertise is at stake.

That is the best time to hire them. They have not had time to learn bad habits. They can be trained the ways of the airline, like Cathay Pacific the very best in the world.

I fly Cathay Pacific home every year, I have been flying them from the days of Nam.

I also am a pilot.

[Supaporn]

I know several pilots who completed their training on similar types as to Cessana 152, Piper Senecas and then secured their first job on B737, A320 and EMB145.

And a colleague who joined straight onto a widebody airbus which is twice the size of the MD82.

I really do not see the relevance to the thread discussing the pro's and con's of approved school frozen atpl holders.

I hope that you are not trying to say that a PPL holder with experience on a single engine prop can fly a multi engine jet without the proper licence.

Apparently it is so...not much difference between a PPL and a simple CPL in my opinion.