Thread For Older Teachers

[culicine]

Is there age discrimination re teaching assignments in Thai? I am an old phogey (59yrs) but would like to teach english and maybe computer science but wonder if its worth the time and money investing in a TEFL if Im going to simply be too old. Have an MSc and BA from the UK as well as 30 years writing computer manuals, sotware engineering, s/w development etc. Thanks

There might be limits in government settings, but in provate schools the sky is the limit (age, not salaries!). We have quite a few teachers who are retired (65++ y.o) and seem to do ok. I can;t imagine teaching at that age though (Thai teens that is).

[Ijustwannateach]

I believe the current policy in public schools/institutions is an official age limit of 60 (because of work permit limitations, I think). However, it's a teacher's labour market right now and you may be able to cut some kind of deal if the school really wants you to be there.

I've heard of at least one unfavourable "over-age" contract offered to continuing employees at ABAC (Assumption University)- basically they only agree to hire you on a yearly basis with your original starting salary (not the pittance of raises they offer) and no benefits or cumulative protections (though this is legally questionable, as it defies Thai Labour Law- after a few years you cannot be considered a "temporary employee" in ANY job and even if your contract says otherwise you are entitled to all the normal benefits).

Anyway, I can hardly imagine it would be pleasant to work at a place where you had to fight your employer legally, and most employers can find other ways to make your life miserable even if you win. It may mean that you will have more trouble finding *legal* work. But to be honest, for some time now PB and I have been discouraging people from trying to find teaching work here in Thailand; it's really not worth it for most people- and certainly not if it's something you're depending on for your retirement!

However, people with your skills are needed- don't give up, and look around at the private EP programs- it does mean that you'll be teaching Thai kids, so a certain amount of energy is involved...

"S"

[PeaceBlondie]

No real problem. I took my TEFL course at 60, and was hired by three schools: two established govt. schools, and one private commercial college. However, if you look and act old in their eyes, they may pass you over and hire some bimbo or some hot stud. Show them vim, vigor, and vitality, with viagra.

[mopenyang]

I've seen it go both ways at a government uni.

In one case, they wouldn't even look at someone who had reached age 60.

In another case, the person was hired past age 60 with a work permit and full benefits and seems to have a job for as long as she wants it.

These days in Thailand, if you have legitimate degrees, you should be able to find a position that will come with a work permit with little or no difficulty.

Just make sure it's a good position, though.

Good luck.

[PeaceBlondie]

I neglected to mention that 60 is the one-time, mandatory retirement age for THAI teachers, so that it is considered well over the hill for a beginning teacher. Because of this, some universities at least believe that they cannot hire an older farang. They can do anything that they and the local offices want to do. My experiences were in secondary education, not tertiary, but I was told to apply at CMU and the rajabat by people who knew I was over 62.

[FrugalTurtle]

We plan to retire at my wifes home in Thailand and I am wondering if I can teach English while having a retirement visa, or do I need a teaching or work visa in conjunction with the retirement visa. Are there any comments on this issue?

[aussiestyle1983]

You need a work permit with a work visa to be able to work legally. You should know the definition of retirement is basically the complete opposite of work, so of course you couldn't work on a retirement visa

On the other hand, many people break the law there and if you choose, you could get your retirement visa, rock up at a school and start working if you wanted anyway. It just wouldn't be legal.

Edited February 10, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[Maestro]

FrugalTurtle, there is no "teaching visa"

In your situation, you should get a non-O visa for the purpose of visiting family (ie your wife). This visa allows you to apply for a work permit, and you can get annual extensions of stay for the reason of living with your Thai wife (paragraph 7.17(5) of Royal Thai Police Order No. 606/2549). If you get a non-B visa and extensions based on employment you have to leave the country within 7 days when you lose your job and with it your work permit but with the non-O visa and marriage extensions you can remain after you stop working.

--

Maestro

[paulfr]

We plan to retire at my wifes home in Thailand and I am wondering if I can teach English while having a retirement visa, or do I need a teaching or work visa in conjunction with the retirement visa. Are there any comments on this issue?

I had a retirement visa and then decided I was bored and wanted to teach.

So I switched to a support of Thai Wife visa.

Lower finacial requirements needed.

Then you are legal.

I have been teaching now for 3 years and my school wants me to switch to the

Non Imm B visa but I do not want to because if I lose my job, I have to leave the

country in 7 days. But with my Thai wife visa, I have a full year regardless of

employment.

JFYI

[Lamsaliboy]

I have been working for a sell known government school for two years. They have recently told me that they want to keep me on, but there's a rule that they cannot employ anyone over 60 direct. Anybody know of such a rule?

[lopburi3]

This has nothing to do with visas - but yes - I have heard that before but will move this to the teaching forum for a better discussion.

[Scott]

We aren't a gov't school, but private schools certainly employ over 60's and we get WP's for them. If we can get a WP, I don't know why a gov't school couldn't. It might be a regulation that they have internally, but WP's would be up to the Ministry of Labor, I would think.

[Petch01]

I have been working for a sell known government school for two years. They have recently told me that they want to keep me on, but there's a rule that they cannot employ anyone over 60 direct. Anybody know of such a rule?

They only rule there is, is the rule that Thai teachers at government schools have to retire at the age of sixty. Some time ago I heard that this doesn't apply to foreign teachers. i.e. you cannot start a teaching job at the age of sixty but when you started before that age, you can continue as long as you please.

The sixty years rule is going to change though. The government is seeking possibilities to raise that age because of a lack of inflow teachers in the education system.

Your school shouldn't have any problems, considering the TEFL-market in Thailand, letting you continue your job unless the are reasons they don't want to tell you.

If we can get a WP, I don't know why a gov't school couldn't. It might be a regulation that they have internally, but WP's would be up to the Ministry of Labor,

That's true. OP's problem hasn't anything to do with Labour.

Petch01

Edited March 18, 2008 by Petch01

[PeaceBlondie]

I started working at govt. schools at age 60.9. If there had been such a law against age 60+, I think the guy at the Labour Ministry (or somebody at the school) would have thought of that. Nope, he simply said the province had not issued a work permit to a farang teacher in 1,200 years. And the places I have applied to lately might have used such an excuse, which works better than 'no ponytails' which I have also heard (and broken that rule).

I doubt there would be such a law for foreigners.

[mopenyang]

It is real. Exceptions are possible:

http://www.nrct.net/eng/modules.php?op=mod...icle&sid=88

[TerryLH]

I think the 60 year old retirement thing is a Civil Service rule, which doesn't apply to anyone not in Civil Service.

[Scott]

Perhaps workers have to retire at 60, but us slaves get to keep going until we drop!

[PeaceBlondie]

It is real. Exceptions are possible:

http://www.nrct.net/eng/modules.php?op=mod...icle&sid=88

Thanks, mopenyang, for that statement which is now 5.5 years old. It asks for the mandatory age-60 retirement to be changed, but it has not. Meanwhile, the Ministry of Education, as I understand it, has not permitted more than a handful of young teachers to become civil service teachers.

At age 60.8 and rising, I was the oldest schoolteacher in that remote province. I am ready to go again at age 65.8, and can still teach six hours per day, if the situation is worth it.

[mopenyang]

Because Thai instructors at government schools must retire at age 60, farang instructors are normally treated the same way or it would be viewed as being unfair to the Thais. Exceptions are possible if they want you badly enough. Easiest way is to have started working legally (work permit, etc.) at the school or uni prior to age 60. You may lose your state health insurance, though. This part seems to go both ways. TiT

Edited March 18, 2008 by mopenyang

[PeaceBlondie]

That makes sense, kind of. I was told at one point that I had to enroll in Thai SS, but I objected, and was told no. I did not care if I was in the Thai health plan for teachers. As for what seems 'unfair' to the Thais - that they get to take a pension when the farang decide to keep working - does not strike me as logical. Unless somebody has the Thai Labour Law handy regarding age when farang receive work permits, it is conjecture. Unless we know of specific examples where it is clear the old farang was refused a work permit only because of age. I recall kenkaniff or somebody saying they had employees (at a private school or agency) well into their 70's, with a work permit.

I am still thinking of applying at uni or rajabat. I do not need a several-year contract, but would insist on a proper visa and work permit. If they do not want me, that's fine.

[JSixpack]

Easiest way is to have started working legally (work permit, etc.) at the school or uni prior to age 60. You may lose your state health insurance, though. This part seems to go both ways. TiT

The rule I saw (some time ago) implies that if you started before age 60, you get to keep the health insurance after 60. Start after 60 and evidently you don't get it. Anybody know if this is true?

[mopenyang]

That makes sense, kind of. I was told at one point that I had to enroll in Thai SS, but I objected, and was told no. I did not care if I was in the Thai health plan for teachers. As for what seems 'unfair' to the Thais - that they get to take a pension when the farang decide to keep working - does not strike me as logical. Unless somebody has the Thai Labour Law handy regarding age when farang receive work permits, it is conjecture. Unless we know of specific examples where it is clear the old farang was refused a work permit only because of age. I recall kenkaniff or somebody saying they had employees (at a private school or agency) well into their 70's, with a work permit.

I am still thinking of applying at uni or rajabat. I do not need a several-year contract, but would insist on a proper visa and work permit. If they do not want me, that's fine.

It is not conjecture. I have seen farang lecturers not be hired for this reason and it even came up in my case and has been commented on more than once when I have gone to the MoL for work permit renewal. This has nothing to do with private schools but you should expect to encounter it when applying to any government university if you are over age 60 and are seeking a full-time teaching position complete with a work permit.

Some Thai university instructors are very sensitive about being forced to retire at age 60 and consider it very unfair when farang instructors are granted exceptions and permitted to stay on past age 60. This is not theoretical. This is a fact. I have heard it directly from them on more than one occasion.

Edited March 19, 2008 by mopenyang

[mopenyang]

Easiest way is to have started working legally (work permit, etc.) at the school or uni prior to age 60. You may lose your state health insurance, though. This part seems to go both ways. TiT

The rule I saw (some time ago) implies that if you started before age 60, you get to keep the health insurance after 60. Start after 60 and evidently you don't get it. Anybody know if this is true?

This seems to vary from institution to institution. Mine won't do it even though I started before age 60, but I have heard others permit it. In my case, it is not important as I have other health insurance but can see where it could be a significant issue for some. This is why I mentioned it above.

[TerryLH]

Once you are in the Thai Social Security system, you can continue after turning 60. Not sure if you can start after 60, but I've never seen anything that would prohibit it.

They actually have good health benefits.

[paully]

Exceptions are possible if they want you badly enough.

Yes, that's basically the clincher. If they want you, there are ways around rules.

[Petch01]

They only rule there is, is the rule that Thai teachers at government schools have to retire at the age of sixty. Some time ago I heard that this doesn't apply to foreign teachers. i.e. you cannot start a teaching job at the age of sixty but when you started before that age, you can continue as long as you please.Petch01

Forgive me for letting you wait but I had to verify it with an other teacher in our province.

We have a charming guy in our province. He started working here in 2004, working for an agency. After that he started working directly for schools. He got his teaching permission from our Service Area of MoE since 2005. He's from Australia and holds a B.Ed. He's a fit an energetic person and gentleman in speaking or behaviour all the way (it could be PeaceBlondie). In October 2007 he and a lot of other teachers in our province did the Thai Language, Culture and Ethics course. Finally he became the first teacher who got a TCT-Teacher License in our province.

In this year he will reach the age of seventy-two.

Petch01

[Martian]

We plan to retire at my wifes home in Thailand and I am wondering if I can teach English while having a retirement visa, or do I need a teaching or work visa in conjunction with the retirement visa. Are there any comments on this issue?

I had a retirement visa and then decided I was bored and wanted to teach.

So I switched to a support of Thai Wife visa.

Lower finacial requirements needed.

Then you are legal.

I have been teaching now for 3 years and my school wants me to switch to the

Non Imm B visa but I do not want to because if I lose my job, I have to leave the

country in 7 days. But with my Thai wife visa, I have a full year regardless of

employment.

JFYI

I am curious...why would your school care about what visa you are holding as long as it entitles you to work?

Regards,

Martian

[twschw]

FrugalTurtle, there is no "teaching visa"

In your situation, you should get a non-O visa for the purpose of visiting family (ie your wife). This visa allows you to apply for a work permit, and you can get annual extensions of stay for the reason of living with your Thai wife (paragraph 7.17(5) of Royal Thai Police Order No. 606/2549). If you get a non-B visa and extensions based on employment you have to leave the country within 7 days when you lose your job and with it your work permit but with the non-O visa and marriage extensions you can remain after you stop working.

--

Maestro

I may be wrong but I believe in order to stay for the seven days you have to get a seven day extension from immigration at the cost of 1900 baht. Otherwise you are subject to overstay fines but as I said I may be wrong.

[paulfr]

I may be wrong but I believe in order to stay for the seven days you have to get a seven day extension from immigration at the cost of 1900 baht. Otherwise you are subject to overstay fines but as I said I may be wrong.

With all due respect, Yes, in this case ............ you are wrong.

I am curious...why would your school care about what visa you are holding as long as it entitles you to work?

Regards, Martian

[/size]

Basically because they are bureaucrats [lazy & afraid] and do not want to do something different from the rest

of the other Farang teachers. Only when I told them I would quit and find another job did they allow

me to work with my Thai Wife Visa rather than their standard Non Imm B Visa.

Edited April 30, 2008 by paulfr

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I may be wrong but I believe in order to stay for the seven days you have to get a seven day extension from immigration at the cost of 1900 baht. Otherwise you are subject to overstay fines but as I said I may be wrong.

With all due respect, Yes, in this case ............ you are wrong.

I am curious...why would your school care about what visa you are holding as long as it entitles you to work?

Regards, Martian

[/size]

Basically because they are bureaucrats [lazy & afraid] and do not want to do something different from the rest

of the other Farang teachers. Only when I told them I would quit and find another job did they allow

me to work with my Thai Wife Visa rather than their standard Non Imm B Visa.

For someone married to a Thai an O is just as good as a B. A work permit is available on both categories.