The Rules About Getting Thai Visas

[PeaceBlondie]

We might be wise to adopt versions of the phrase, "There, except for the grace of God, go I." Surely that beats believing, "I am better than the rest" or "It is my God-given right to be in Thailand illegally."

[mellow1]

Here in the USA we've got roughly 12 million illegal aliens.

There are plans for drivers license and full amnesty in the works.

Last month the BCIS (formally INS) reported losing 110,000 green card applications. Solution skip the final FBI screening and just give the green cards.

Sorry for the in convienience.

Seems like the USA has the most liberal poilicies in illegal immigration IMHO...

It's things like this that that need to be changed, and these idiots need to be fired. The US needs to adopt the very sensible immigration policies which Thailand has, it needs to deport and fine all 12 million.

[mellow1]

It's things like this that that need to be changed, and these idiots need to be fired. The US needs to adopt the very sensible immigration policies which Thailand has, it needs to deport and fine all 12 million.

That is another easy position to take - ignore the vast human tragedy that is behind every single of those 12 million here, 3 million there - just because it does not personally touch you, or your loved ones.

Lack of compassion.

You don't know me very well. I'm just playing along with the rose colored glasses brigade. They couldn't care less if some poor slob, were to get kicked out of Thailand cause he doesn't meet new visa requirements, not be able to be with his wife and children, because of some monetary requirement. But look how they cry, that now the EU, the UK, and others are tightening the requirements for their loved ones to be able to live in their own country. It's unfair they say, but in the LOS all is OK. There are a few guys here working and making a similar wage the average Joe would make in a western country, and because of this their heads have swollen out of proportion. At anytime their position could be terminated, and they would be scrambling to save their ass. There could be another coup, or the rules could just change at any whim, we could all be kicked out today. All they would then talk about would be the humanitarian principle. But right now its those who have difficulties, that are low class scumbags( not that there isn't a certain amount of this present, but I would leave the class part out), and they perceive themselves as high class. So you see reversing the situation and being sarcastic may cause some people to think. All these things affect all of us in one manner or another, its only a matter of time. All the careful planning will have flaws, there is no way around it. Life is a roller coaster ride, but its good when your up, we all know how it is when were down.

[bendix]

You guys are great. You really are. You make a lovely lovely couple and I'm delighted your mutual disdain of me has brought you closer together.

Now, as fascinating as I find myself to be, let's get back on topic.

Thailand has very very simple immigration rules which we must all abide by. Rightly or wrongly, those rules are predicated on foreigners having sufficient loot to be able to support themselves or their loved ones. I dunno, but that seems entirely reasonable to me.

In some cases those rules are tightened. Well, inflation happens blah blah blah. In other cases, those rules are relaxed. As samran has pointed out, the financial requirements for marriage visas are now only 40,000 per couple, not for the farang alone.

We can bitch and whine about it all we like. I know it's a Thaivisa habit to do so. But it is what it is and to assume that we have some god-given right to be here because we have white skin and a bit more cash than the average Thai is rather strange.

[bendix]

You don't know me very well. I'm just playing along with the rose colored glasses brigade. They couldn't care less if some poor slob, were to get kicked out of Thailand cause he doesn't meet new visa requirements, not be able to be with his wife and children, because of some monetary requirement. But look how they cry, that now the EU, the UK, and others are tightening the requirements for their loved ones to be able to live in their own country. It's unfair they say, but in the LOS all is OK. There are a few guys here working and making a similar wage the average Joe would make in a western country, and because of this their heads have swollen out of proportion. At anytime their position could be terminated, and they would be scrambling to save their ass. There could be another coup, or the rules could just change at any whim, we could all be kicked out today. All they would then talk about would be the humanitarian principle. But right now its those who have difficulties, that are low class scumbags( not that there isn't a certain amount of this present, but I would leave the class part out), and they perceive themselves as high class. So you see reversing the situation and being sarcastic may cause some people to think. All these things affect all of us in one manner or another, its only a matter of time. All the careful planning will have flaws, there is no way around it. Life is a roller coaster ride, but its good when your up, we all know how it is when were down.

This is all very nice, mellow (and for the record, I think rules should be relaxed where families are in danger of being split), but let's get back to the real world.

What are you proposing? That automatically being married to a Thai should give the farang the right to live here forever. That would open the floodgates - the economic disparity between Thailand and the west (and let's face it; that's what the sex industry is based on) would ensure that a huge stream of farang would come here, marry and then not be able to support themselves. What then? It would be a social policy catastrophe and fundamentally reshape Thailand for the worse. There simply HAS to be some kind of financial cut off point and those marrying Thais should have the foresight to plan ahead and ensure they meet it, not just now but taking possible and reasonable visa law changes in the future into account.

How hard is that? It's hardly rocket science. Westerners plan their futures when they marry . why should it be different here.

Yes, you're right though. Life here is tenuous. Visa laws may change - it's within their rights to do so. Those safe today might not be tomorrow. Well, whooopy bloody doo . . .

The answer is simple. Don't have only one option. Don't live here if you don't have an exit strategy. Don't be irresponsible (especially if you're taking on a wife or kids here).

It's called being a mature responsible adult.

Sadly, that description doesnt apply to many farangs who come here motivated by cheap beer and sex, rather than more meaningful considerations.

Apologies for not having much sympathy for those without either the foresight or brains to think further than a week or so ahead.

You're quite right. For

[jstumbo]

For sure it is my human right to make the choice where I want life.

So if I decide to live in your yard, that is my right? You as the controller of your property should have no say on where I live and should not be able to stop me or make any rules governing my living in your yard?

[bendix]

For sure it is my human right to make the choice where I want life.

So if I decide to live in your yard, that is my right? You as the controller of your property should have no say on where I live and should not be able to stop me or make any rules governing my living in your yard?

LMAO.

First class.

[grtaylor]

What's your point? This is not your country. Do you think you have a god-given right to be here?

You did not read my post correctly ; or may be my English is not too clear...

I have nothing against thai immigration rules.

Thailand defined the rules and I have to accept them. Point

My post was against some members here who just can't stop repeat here again and again : "Follow the rules and you can stay here without problem".

They just forget that some categories of people are excluded from these rules, and I am in one of them... I can follow all the rules that are, but I will have to wait to be old (50+ ) to stop 90 days visa runs...

Pattaya46

The rule is 50, therefore you are incorrect in saying you follow the rules, as you are not yet 50 . . . . The point of them having the rules is to exclude people they don't want, i.e. in this case retirees under 50. I understand why you don't like it, but that's the way it is. Every country's government has the right to decide who should live there, and under what conditions.

[grtaylor]

For sure it is my human right to make the choice where I want life.

So if I decide to live in your yard, that is my right? You as the controller of your property should have no say on where I live and should not be able to stop me or make any rules governing my living in your yard?

Brilliant!

[garro]

What really gets to me is the triumphal attitude of many posters when the visa noose tightens on other westerners. This gloating over another's misfortune is a bit sickening to watch.

[Pepe']

"Those of demoniac mentality rejoice at seeing the pain and suffering of others."-

Ancient Pali text...

[bendix]

What really gets to me is the triumphal attitude of many posters when the visa noose tightens on other westerners. This gloating over another's misfortune is a bit sickening to watch.

Garro, are we not masters of our own destiny? Are we mere flotsam and jetsum, subject to the whims of life, fate, the universe and Thai policymakers?

No, we are not. We are - or we're meant to be - logical, intelligent, mature human beings capable of thinking slightly further ahead than tonight's beer session or next week's trip to Walking Street. For gods sake, as farang we have had advantages in life way above those of our hosts, and yet we continue to bleat when things don't go our way.

With respect, I think you're wrong. Noone is gloating over misfortune. I certainly am not. Instead, what they/me might be doing is failing to have much empathy for lack of planning.

That is obviously the case with the OP who seems to be under the bizarre impression that he has a universal right to live anywhere he likes, with no strings attached.

[grtaylor]

I presume the "gloating" comment refers to me. I am not gloating, just trying to be REALISTIC.

[Heng]

It's often a matter of perspective. "I'm not looking down at you... I'm just looking down in your direction."

[mellow1]

You don't know me very well. I'm just playing along with the rose colored glasses brigade. They couldn't care less if some poor slob, were to get kicked out of Thailand cause he doesn't meet new visa requirements, not be able to be with his wife and children, because of some monetary requirement. But look how they cry, that now the EU, the UK, and others are tightening the requirements for their loved ones to be able to live in their own country. It's unfair they say, but in the LOS all is OK. There are a few guys here working and making a similar wage the average Joe would make in a western country, and because of this their heads have swollen out of proportion. At anytime their position could be terminated, and they would be scrambling to save their ass. There could be another coup, or the rules could just change at any whim, we could all be kicked out today. All they would then talk about would be the humanitarian principle. But right now its those who have difficulties, that are low class scumbags( not that there isn't a certain amount of this present, but I would leave the class part out), and they perceive themselves as high class. So you see reversing the situation and being sarcastic may cause some people to think. All these things affect all of us in one manner or another, its only a matter of time. All the careful planning will have flaws, there is no way around it. Life is a roller coaster ride, but its good when your up, we all know how it is when were down.

This is all very nice, mellow (and for the record, I think rules should be relaxed where families are in danger of being split), but let's get back to the real world.

What are you proposing? That automatically being married to a Thai should give the farang the right to live here forever. That would open the floodgates - the economic disparity between Thailand and the west (and let's face it; that's what the sex industry is based on) would ensure that a huge stream of farang would come here, marry and then not be able to support themselves. What then? It would be a social policy catastrophe and fundamentally reshape Thailand for the worse. There simply HAS to be some kind of financial cut off point and those marrying Thais should have the foresight to plan ahead and ensure they meet it, not just now but taking possible and reasonable visa law changes in the future into account.

How hard is that? It's hardly rocket science. Westerners plan their futures when they marry . why should it be different here.

Yes, you're right though. Life here is tenuous. Visa laws may change - it's within their rights to do so. Those safe today might not be tomorrow. Well, whooopy bloody doo . . .

The answer is simple. Don't have only one option. Don't live here if you don't have an exit strategy. Don't be irresponsible (especially if you're taking on a wife or kids here).

It's called being a mature responsible adult.

Sadly, that description doesnt apply to many farangs who come here motivated by cheap beer and sex, rather than more meaningful considerations.

Apologies for not having much sympathy for those without either the foresight or brains to think further than a week or so ahead.

You're quite right. For

I see you are now relaxing your view towards some situations such as families being split, of course this may be due to your recent marriage, buying a house, and maybe a baby being on the way( either way congrats if this should be so), but as things affect us personally , it does change our perceptions.

Economic disparity is already here and exists quite well within Thai society, some broke foreigner would hardly affect much should he marry a Thai. Marriages could easily be regulated, if that is desirable. I presume it is not, because of the vast amount of money this generates for the LOS. The financial aspect of a person being able to afford to marry, I had to go through in the US, also when my wife came to live with me there some 13 yrs ago, once accepted as being qualified, life went on without her reporting on a 90 day basis and the entire family yearly, with financial statements and the same papers which Immigration already received initially. She was also able to get a job if she wanted to, without other fanfare, not to mention owning the house, land, etc.. if I had died. But I do agree with not allowing people to enter who cannot support themselves, as I think should be the case in my own country. My wife would also of not been thrown out of the country, if for some reason things got hard financially, leaving my son without his mother, and myself without a wife. Something the Thai government would not hesitate to do, and I think the humanitarian aspect would come into play in these examples.

As far as the cheap beer and sex are concerned, it has nothing to do with me, and I don't indulge due to the fact that I'm a family man and have others to consider. Of course if I were single, I'm sure that I probably would, but then I doubt very much that I'd be living here. Cheap beer and sex can of course be criticized but its really the biggest attraction Thailand has for most tourists it seems.

I would have no problem returning to my own country and being able to survive, it would be inconvenient doing it at a drop of a hat though, and my wife would have to remain to look after and liquidate our assets here. My son and I would miss her, until we could again be reunited. To be mature and responsible are options I have never contemplated to be without, at least not for several decades.

[BigSnake]

They make all these silly rules to weed out the bad farangs, however they make it rough/'tough on the good guys. What do about some of these rule(??) your guess is as good or better than mine OVER to Y'all.

[bendix]

resentful sod. Kudos to you. That was a good and thought provoking post.

My response:

I think you're taking the discussion into new territories. It's impossible to properly plan for every contingency and we all (even me, believe it or not) have sympathy for those who's lives are thrown out of kilter through such things as illness, or being wrongly accused of crimes.

But come on . . . .that's hardly the same thing as coming to a foreign country as a guest (perhaps to settle) and perhaps marrying and having a family when you're not properly prepared for it. Being expedient and prepared is not about ensuring you have enough cash or can satisfy the visa rules TODAY; being prudent is about looking forward to what might REASONABLY occur in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years and planning contingencies. Isnt that what responsibility is all about? Isn't what what being an adult is about?

Accidents, deaths, illness . all those things are the great unknown. We can't plan for them except at a very arbitrary level. They are human tragedies and should be treated as such. They are arbitary and cruel. People in those positions have my fullest sympathy.

We can, though, look a little further ahead than our immediate needs to ensure not only our own wellbeing, but those of our families.

The sad fact is this: too many people come to this alien land woefully under-prepared and with no escape plan in place. They then compound it by marrying locally, often with limited resources. I'm sorry, but in my book that is more than irresponsible; it's selfish.

[klikster]

I personally think the rules are too liberal. They are considerably looser than those of the UK, US, Australia, NZ, Holland etc.

You might want to qualify your comments. One of my Thai buddies had a 10 year visa to the US. Another owns freehold property in the US.

I personally don't believe the rules are too strict .. and I have seen first hand evidence that not all Thai immigration officials know the rules. I argued for almost an hour one day about a "Health Certificate" being required for a 1 year extension. I eventually won after the officer read 3 different manuals.

More recently, another Thai friend was just told that usufruct was only for Thai.

[Pepe']

Soory hear about your situation.

Hope things turn out for the best...

[klikster]

It is the high and mighty attitude that gets to me.

High and mighty farangs in TV???

Well said, garro.

[mellow1]

We can, though, look a little further ahead than our immediate needs to ensure not only our own wellbeing, but those of our families.

The sad fact is this: too many people come to this alien land woefully under-prepared and with no escape plan in place. They then compound it by marrying locally, often with limited resources. I'm sorry, but in my book that is more than irresponsible; it's selfish.

I have never considered my immediate needs prior to that of my wife and child, and am surprised, and sometimes envious of those that do. I also see many people here whom I feel have come unprepared. I am not talking about some guy in the work force trying to built a future for his family and still working, maybe for years to come. I am mainly referring to the retired crowd who after working for a lifetime, have nothing to show for it, and are living in what I would consider a squalid environment and lifestyle. This however doesn't make these people undesirables, to be shunned, or degraded by me. I do not know what trial and tribulations they went through in life. I would think though that a simple escape plan would be a plane ticket, hopefully for their loved ones too. But if its hard to meet financial requirements here, it will be hel_l where they come from, or so I imagine. Being able to be with one's family and having a home is where human rights come in, and obviously their in the wrong country to be looking for that. It has nothing to do with crossing borders and entering the country of your choice and staking out a claim.

[bendix]

I personally think the rules are too liberal. They are considerably looser than those of the UK, US, Australia, NZ, Holland etc.

You might want to qualify your comments. One of my Thai buddies had a 10 year visa to the US. Another owns freehold property in the US.

I don't think I need to. I think resentfulsod's last post summarises it totally. Those Thais who have ten year visas and own land overseas are - let's face it - not your regular Thai. They will be extremely well-educated, necessarily wealthy and probably reasonably connected. Most of us will know one or two of them. They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

My comment was based on the fact that for the average Thai with an average income, average savings, average education it is very difficult to enter Oz, the US, the UK or anywhere else for even a two week holiday, let alone a longer stay. Multiply that by a hundred if they are travelling alone or have no overseas sponsor. Times it by ten more, if they are single, young women. We all know the un-stated stigma that applies to those Thai girls queueing each morning on Wireless Road, passports clutched hopefully in hand, farang bf waiting patiently by their side.

Farangs coming to Thailand don't have to jump through the same hoops just for the mere privilege of getting through immigration.

Edited April 10, 2008 by bendix

[garro]

You fellas, like Bendix, must have amazing predictive powers to be able to see the future. I certainly wasn't born with that particular chip in my brain. I need to depend on making millions of choices everyday and just hoping that some of these will work out fine. Of course, I use the best knowledge available to me at the time, but in most cases I would say that this knowledge wasn't sufficient. Hindsight is always a great thing. Still I'm not complaining. If I'm right 50% of the time that is good for me. Mind you, some of my best decisions were taking on impulse.

I believe that many others do the same as me. They make mistakes but I'm not going to criticise them too much for that as I do the same.

Froward planning - my arse.

[Kerryd]

What are you proposing? That automatically being married to a Thai should give the farang the right to live here forever. That would open the floodgates - the economic disparity between Thailand and the west (and let's face it; that's what the sex industry is based on) would ensure that a huge stream of farang would come here, marry and then not be able to support themselves. What then? It would be a social policy catastrophe and fundamentally reshape Thailand for the worse. There simply HAS to be some kind of financial cut off point and those marrying Thais should have the foresight to plan ahead and ensure they meet it, not just now but taking possible and reasonable visa law changes in the future into account.

How hard is that? It's hardly rocket science. Westerners plan their futures when they marry . why should it be different here.

Yes, you're right though. Life here is tenuous. Visa laws may change - it's within their rights to do so. Those safe today might not be tomorrow. Well, whooopy bloody doo . . .

The answer is simple. Don't have only one option. Don't live here if you don't have an exit strategy. Don't be irresponsible (especially if you're taking on a wife or kids here).

It's called being a mature responsible adult.

Sadly, that description doesnt apply to many farangs who come here motivated by cheap beer and sex, rather than more meaningful considerations.

Apologies for not having much sympathy for those without either the foresight or brains to think further than a week or so ahead.

I agree. Different countries enact different rules based on different sets of values. Places like Canada that foresee a need for more immigrants may raise quotas and relax rules for various classes of immigrants in order to attract more of the same.

Other countries have a need to clamp down to prevent the floodgates (as Mr B mentioned) from overwhelming the country with "less than desirable" immigrants. This could (would) cause an incredible number of problems for the host nation (economic, political, criminal). Not to mention the degradation or loss of national identity, and the possibility of other problems in the future (i.e. when a flood of Cambodian, Burmese and Lao immigrants into the border provinces suddenly decide those areas should secede and become independent, or join their parent nation).

Yes, Thai rules can be harsh, unforgiving and ever changing. Should they change the rules to avoid inconveniencing a few, not so well off farangs, and risk the future of the country ? Some of those farang hang on the baht/(name your currency) exchange rates like they are a matter of life or death. A slight dip in the value of their home currency has them scrambling to figure how they are going to get by on only 4 beer per day.

bendix mentioned that Westerners plan their futures when they marry (usually). In the army we had a saying "Fail to Plan, Plan on Failing". Before I initially decided to relocate to Thailand, I did some research on various countries that caught my eye. I didn't limit myself to what the current exchange rate was compared to my "home" currency. I had a host of factors (medical, transport, political, crime, climate, etc). Could have gone to a cheaper place, but had to deal with poorer medical facilities, harder to get in/out of, higher crime rates and so on. When I weighed all the factors, Thailand came out as my best choice.

Even then, I knew I couldn't just "pop" over and get by on my pension. I could get by on it, but any dramatic changes in exchange rates, or my health, or unforeseen emergencies could find me destitute. That is why I am working in places like AssCrackistan, to make sure that when I am ready to retire, I have the means to get by in the event things change (like Visa rules).

I read that Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Barely worth the paper it was written on. Perhaps the OP should have someone explain Article 13 to him, or his is experiencing "selective understanding" of it's meaning.

Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Note that it says "within the borders" of each state (meaning country). No where does it say "between" the borders of different states (meaning countries). It also says you have the right to leave any country (a subtle hint from the drafters of this Declaration perhaps ?). One should note that this Declaration is nothing more than a list of ideals, and that the laws of each "state" (still meaning "country") will still take precedence over any "Rights" contained in the Declaration.

Even the great Champions of Freedom (you know who) break/violate a large number of the "Rights" they have (I imagine) agreed to. Such as Article 5: No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

(last time I checked, "water-boarding" would probably be considered all 4 of the above).

How about Article 6:

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law. (unless you are in Guantanamo)

Here is an interesting one. Article 17:

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

Wow ! Is Thailand a signatory of the Declaration ? Quick, call the UN and tell them your Article 17 Right is being violated in Thailand ! That should be enough to get the Kingdom to change it's laws, least if face an invasion by the UN !

Yeah, right.

Lets face it, the only way you voice is going to be heard is if you let your money do the talking for you, by taking it somewhere else to spend. Unfortunately, it would appear that the volume of your voice will be less than that of a single drop of rain during the monsoons.

[bendix]

It's not rocket science garro.

Here's a great example. Many members on here have said they are feeling the pinch because of the declining dollar. However, there are a group of members (not me included) who based their retirement planning on the baht at 25 when, in fact, it was 40. That was prudent planning.

Sadly, too many saw the dollar at 40 baht, decided they could retire right now, and are now suffering as a result of it.

The same applies to financial requirements for visas.

If retirement visas mean you need 60,000 a month TODAY, surely it's prudent to 'guess' that in five years the level might be 80,000 or 100,000 a month. Unless you can logically foresee that it might be thus and then make an intelligent decision accordingly, you're being reckless.

Businesses do it all the time. It's loosely called worst case scenario planning. It's about being sensibly - not paranoically - risk averse, especially when it involves making such a huge lifestyle and financial decision.

[sbk]

Inflammatory and abusive posts have been edited and deleted. Lets keep this civil please.

[mellow1]

It's not rocket science garro.

Here's a great example. Many members on here have said they are feeling the pinch because of the declining dollar. However, there are a group of members (not me included) who based their retirement planning on the baht at 25 when, in fact, it was 40. That was prudent planning.

Sadly, too many saw the dollar at 40 baht, decided they could retire right now, and are now suffering as a result of it.

The same applies to financial requirements for visas.

If retirement visas mean you need 60,000 a month TODAY, surely it's prudent to 'guess' that in five years the level might be 80,000 or 100,000 a month. Unless you can logically foresee that it might be thus and then make an intelligent decision accordingly, you're being reckless.

Businesses do it all the time. It's loosely called worst case scenario planning. It's about being sensibly - not paranoically - risk averse, especially when it involves making such a huge lifestyle and financial decision.

Once again, I have to agree with these requirements, and I say again, that these similar financial requirements need to be put into place in my own country. This is to keep people from becoming a burden on social welfare systems and the tax payers who contribute to them( of course this is not a problem for Thailand, where a foreigner would not qualify for anything, even if they had such a system). Also to keep these people who have no income to turn to crime and prey on our citizens. It is also much more expensive to live there and the requirements should be adjusted accordingly.

[kiakaha]

It's not rocket science garro.

Here's a great example. Many members on here have said they are feeling the pinch because of the declining dollar. However, there are a group of members (not me included) who based their retirement planning on the baht at 25 when, in fact, it was 40. That was prudent planning.

Sadly, too many saw the dollar at 40 baht, decided they could retire right now, and are now suffering as a result of it.

The same applies to financial requirements for visas.

If retirement visas mean you need 60,000 a month TODAY, surely it's prudent to 'guess' that in five years the level might be 80,000 or 100,000 a month. Unless you can logically foresee that it might be thus and then make an intelligent decision accordingly, you're being reckless.

Businesses do it all the time. It's loosely called worst case scenario planning. It's about being sensibly - not paranoically - risk averse, especially when it involves making such a huge lifestyle and financial decision.

Once again, I have to agree with these requirements, and I say again, that these similar financial requirements need to be put into place in my own country. This is to keep people from becoming a burden on social welfare systems and the tax payers who contribute to them( of course this is not a problem for Thailand, where a foreigner would not qualify for anything, even if they had such a system). Also to keep these people who have no income to turn to crime and prey on our citizens. It is also much more expensive to live there and the requirements should be adjusted accordingly.

Exactly.

But as I said in a previous post, I bet the majority of the complainers never researched/planned/strategized a single thing, they just ended up here in LOS and for one reason or another, now need to stay and are "victims", a state they've ended up in entirely due to their own ineptitude, stupidity and lack of foresight.I hope the winging is soothing, but personally I'd be putting my energies into a finding a practical solution.

[Heng]

It's all relative. I'm sure there's a point where we could move the goal posts to a point where even the "comfortable" crowd would have to leave (most would make the smart choice and relocate somewhere more friendly, but I'm sure some would convert to whingerism). Heck, there's even the outside chance that the powers that be and the top 15-20% of locals here will one day lose their stranglehold on the country. Anything is possible.

[Pepe']

Inflammatory and abusive posts have been edited and deleted. Lets keep this civil please.

-------------------

Appreciate that SBK.

Really...