Security Tightens At Government House To Block Anti-govt Protesters

[ando]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

Perhaps the Thai government feels it is not necessary to consult with you on their next move?

I could be wrong of course.

[elation]

Have we ever thought that perhaps Thailand is not 'ready' for a democratic government? A democratic government is based on the assumption that the people have evolved enough to allow disagreements to end after the final ballot is counted and they join together to make things work. Unfortunately, this did not happen and things got worse. Not to say that Thailand alone has this problem. The United States is a prime example where, under democratic rule, its hopelessly deadlocked in politics and fiscal mismangement. Add to that the fact that many want to rig the elections and we have chaos like we see in so many situations.

The reallity is, maybe democracy is not a one shoe fits all type of government...as we westerners have sold it to be. There are many countries that do just fine/have done just fine without democracy.

[hammered]

A big hand to the boys in brown on how they handled this situation.

Got fat in the line of duty comes to mind.

But in all fairness i am glad no one has been hurt so far.

fully agree

but also would like to note that the PAD has been peacefully rallying since 2005!

Hope it stays like this!

Yes and as we should praise the PAD for holding peaceful rallies over such a long period. The police chief was rioght when he said today was a victory for society. This is how demonstrations should be held and policed in a democracy.

[frodo]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Fully agree with you.

Thankfully, there is PAD willing to take the risks involved in demonstrating in a very democratic way. Looking at the latest news, it seems that Samak may very well be on his way out, with no coup or violence, which was never PAD's objective to begin with.

Samak dealt parliamentary blow

Besieged Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej suffered another severe political blow this evening when Parliament formally accepted the opposition's censure motion, practically preventing him from seeking a "graceful" way-out through a House dissolution.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/20/pol...cs_30076073.php

[apetley]

A friend of ours is a BIB on duty right now outside Government House.

According to him most of the police there want the present government to go so that's why there was precious little resistance from the police today.

He also reckons Samaks days if not hours are numbered but that was only his own personal opinion.

[frodo]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

Perhaps the Thai government feels it is not necessary to consult with you on their next move?

I could be wrong of course.

You're right. But any so-called leaders would address their nation, especially when the government house has been besieged, instead of crawling underground like a bunch of worms.

[nomoretalksin]

Just saw: Interior Minister Chalerm, claimed that 50'000people were today there! PAD says 100'000people!

So guess somewhere in the middle: 75'000! That's amazing!

Wow, I'm really prowed of the Thai people now! Finally they came out!

That's even more than in 2006. Very unusual for the normaly politicaly uninterested, inactive Thais to raise their voice

on the streets (against corruption) in such big numbers!

Great! Let's hope the government get's the message now and changes will follow!

[hammered]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Fully agree with you.

Thankfully, there is PAD willing to take the risks involved in demonstrating in a very democratic way. Looking at the latest news, it seems that Samak may very well be on his way out, with no coup or violence, which was never PAD's objective to begin with.

Samak dealt parliamentary blow

Besieged Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej suffered another severe political blow this evening when Parliament formally accepted the opposition's censure motion, practically preventing him from seeking a "graceful" way-out through a House dissolution.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/20/pol...cs_30076073.php

That is dynamite. It may just be the parliamentarians are ganging up to reshuffle some cards and put the PAD and Samak off the agenda. Of course no one wantrs a new election with all the expense involved.

[Tony Clifton]

Huuuge crowd.

[Prakanong]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Has it ever been any different in Thailand - they have all had their noses in the trough since before living memory - every single one of them

You think PAD and those behind them are doing this for altruistic philanthropic reasons?

Maybe there is just no hope for Thailand as a modern functioning forward thinking nation state?

The laughing stock of Asia at the moment and we all know eveyone thinks its only good for a couple of things.

[ando]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Economically, the country is under tremendous pressures as are most countries and especially south east Asian countries.

At the same time the government has had its attention diverted by opposition entities attempting to bring it down. Is it any wonder the place is not running smoothly. Even in more stable political times the country would be undergoing economic hardship. But with adversarial entities throwing a spanner in the works its even worse.

[Prakanong]

Here is an interesting FT piece on the situation pre-today:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c9c51d22-3d65-11...00779fd2ac.html

Interesting take!

If it is all about Thaksins money why does somebody just negotiate with him to stay away for 5 years and he can have his money plus he has to keep totally out of Thai politics - it would take a big guy but there are people who could do that as has been seen before in disputes on this scale.

Then normal service will be resumed only with smaller snouts at the trough while the Thai people get shat on as usual - no change there?

[hammered]

Have we ever thought that perhaps Thailand is not 'ready' for a democratic government? A democratic government is based on the assumption that the people have evolved enough to allow disagreements to end after the final ballot is counted and they join together to make things work. Unfortunately, this did not happen and things got worse. Not to say that Thailand alone has this problem. The United States is a prime example where, under democratic rule, its hopelessly deadlocked in politics and fiscal mismangement. Add to that the fact that many want to rig the elections and we have chaos like we see in so many situations.

The reallity is, maybe democracy is not a one shoe fits all type of government...as we westerners have sold it to be. There are many countries that do just fine/have done just fine without democracy.

Democracy is imho a process and all democratic countries are somewhere on the path of developing a "perfect" democracy. Thailand is no doubt behind most western countries and ahead of some other developing countries. However, lets not forget that even the best known democracies have had their less democratic and darker pasts.

The whole mess going on right now can also be seen as a debate about the equilibrium between power of elected government and checks and balances. We also see yet again peaceful and well policed demonstartions. We also see in parliament attempts to censure the government. All of this stuff is part of develping democracy. At times it may seem messy and at times there may be steps backwards but it is in many ways no different from what has happened in places like the US or Uk in the past.

I make you right on the one shoe fits all but maybe Thailand will evolve its own form of democracy as other countries have. Maybe some places do well without democracy too as you say, but it seems in Thailand that is the system the majority want to try.

[Prakanong]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Economically, the country is under tremendous pressures as are most countries and especially south east Asian countries.

At the same time the government has had its attention diverted by opposition entities attempting to bring it down. Is it any wonder the place is not running smoothly. Even in more stable political times the country would be undergoing economic hardship. But with adversarial entities throwing a spanner in the works its even worse.

Yes China put up fuel 20% today and Malaysia bit the bullet a few weeks ago

Thailand will have to face it soon - the curent Govt should just go and let someone else face up to reality and carry the can for the current world economy

Somebody will have to do it

[nomoretalksin]

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/

good analyzes (spelling??) in English now!

[Pierrot]

*post deleted. Nevermind. Poster "sort of" apologized.

Not worth it

Edited June 20, 2008 by Pierrot

[hammered]

Here is an interesting FT piece on the situation pre-today:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c9c51d22-3d65-11...00779fd2ac.html

Interesting take!

If it is all about Thaksins money why does somebody just negotiate with him to stay away for 5 years and he can have his money plus he has to keep totally out of Thai politics - it would take a big guy but there are people who could do that as has been seen before in disputes on this scale.

Then normal service will be resumed only with smaller snouts at the trough while the Thai people get shat on as usual - no change there?

Persoanlly I dont doubt that eventually a deal like that will be made. he gets the cash probably after an election and he gets found guilty of something which knocks him out of politics forever. To be honest if we atke the known big mouths and extremists on both sides out, in the parliament many PPP, CT and Dem MPs probably dont hold ideas that cant be reconciled. Similarly most ordinary people. The problem is more with the big players who it seems cant be reconciled and wont give an inch.

[ratcatcher]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Economically, the country is under tremendous pressures as are most countries and especially south east Asian countries.

At the same time the government has had its attention diverted by opposition entities attempting to bring it down. Is it any wonder the place is not running smoothly. Even in more stable political times the country would be undergoing economic hardship. But with adversarial entities throwing a spanner in the works its even worse.

Speaking of tools, I believe it was who the country and who threw the in the works.

Edited June 20, 2008 by ratcatcher

[Plus]

What's this talk about inciting a coup? No one believes it is possible anytime soon.

I don't agree with PAD demand to oust the government, but considering daily fluctuations with Constitution amendment and meddling with judiciary, there isn't really any other choice - time to give PPP the benefit of the doubt has passed - they are not going to abandon their politically provocative ideas, only perhaps create an illusion of solving some immediate problems (like truckers threatening to shut down major roads) to score some sympathy points with the public.

In the meantime yesterday's session in Parlament was rather telling of their real intentions. They WILL try to let Thaksin scott free of all charges, among other things.

I also want to remind people that Thailand is not a presidential republic, change of a Prime Minister is not big deal, he wasn't elected by the people, and the government coalition can fall apart at any moment, it doesn't mean that election results gets overturned. If one day five coalition partners decide to join Democrats and form a new government, it doesn't mean that elections are nullified. The sky is not falling.

Look at the West - every now and then there are news of coalition partners switching camps, even Tony Blair wasn't voted out. No one calls it a "government overthrow". Why all the scaremongering?

Samak has options of how to diffuse the situation without any violence and without calling new elections, it's really not PAD's problem that he is not in control of his own party.

Also I think calls to resolve the problems in parlament are somewhat naive - it has been tried already and it got nowhere. In fact Democrats and the Senate are trying to put the government on the right track as we speak, but PPP refuses to cooperate. Even some PPP members are calling on Dems to negotiate the way out, but they are not in control and can't promise anything.

Bottom line is, even though some PAD actiones and demands are over the board, the main thrust is right, there's no reason for them to stop their rallies until solution is found.

[toptuan]

As Thailand endures all this political chaos, I happen to be watching "Evita" on UBC/True (channel 12), and the parallels between mid-20th century Argentina and present-day Thailand are striking. The privileged hi-so classes threatened with the loss of power and influence to the unwashed masses who go on dutifully electing their government, as ineffective as it is (the government and the elections).

[hammered]

What's this talk about inciting a coup? No one believes it is possible anytime soon.

I don't agree with PAD demand to oust the government, but considering daily fluctuations with Constitution amendment and meddling with judiciary, there isn't really any other choice - time to give PPP the benefit of the doubt has passed - they are not going to abandon their politically provocative ideas, only perhaps create an illusion of solving some immediate problems (like truckers threatening to shut down major roads) to score some sympathy points with the public.

In the meantime yesterday's session in Parlament was rather telling of their real intentions. They WILL try to let Thaksin scott free of all charges, among other things.

I also want to remind people that Thailand is not a presidential republic, change of a Prime Minister is not big deal, he wasn't elected by the people, and the government coalition can fall apart at any moment, it doesn't mean that election results gets overturned. If one day five coalition partners decide to join Democrats and form a new government, it doesn't mean that elections are nullified. The sky is not falling.

Look at the West - every now and then there are news of coalition partners switching camps, even Tony Blair wasn't voted out. No one calls it a "government overthrow". Why all the scaremongering?

Samak has options of how to diffuse the situation without any violence and without calling new elections, it's really not PAD's problem that he is not in control of his own party.

Also I think calls to resolve the problems in parlament are somewhat naive - it has been tried already and it got nowhere. In fact Democrats and the Senate are trying to put the government on the right track as we speak, but PPP refuses to cooperate. Even some PPP members are calling on Dems to negotiate the way out, but they are not in control and can't promise anything.

Bottom line is, even though some PAD actiones and demands are over the board, the main thrust is right, there's no reason for them to stop their rallies until solution is found.

Good point to remind everyone Thailand has a parliamentary system. I would also like to add the historuical point that Margaret Thatcher was removed by her own party when she had a huge huge majority and it was probably at least linked to Poll Tax demonstrations. Yes it is a good point that in parliamentray systems there are government changes without elections. Sometimes those used to presidetial systems seem to overlook this. It may well aslo be the easy way out for short term relief in Thailand right now.

[samran]

Here it is, 7 1/2 hours later and nary a word from the "government." Such an impressive performance from them. Then again, after four months of doing nothing, it really is no surprise.

This government is basically a third rate 'delta force', put up for election by Thaksin to get him out of the trouble he is in with the courts. Did you really expect them to actually do any governing?

I mean, they've made a balls up of the 'get Thaksin out of jail' plan, since they've been too busy getting their noses in the trough. Effective governance was never on the agenda for these guys.

Has it ever been any different in Thailand - they have all had their noses in the trough since before living memory - every single one of them

You think PAD and those behind them are doing this for altruistic philanthropic reasons?

Maybe there is just no hope for Thailand as a modern functioning forward thinking nation state?

The laughing stock of Asia at the moment and we all know eveyone thinks its only good for a couple of things.

Some make the pretence of wanting to govern. Some actually get things done which benefit the country.

This government never pretended to be anything else that a get Thaksin out of jail government, and the first thing they did when elected was to propose an amendment to the constitution, and cause predictable division. Never mind the threat of rising inflation, which no doubt the boffins at the BOT would have warned them about.

I think it was in the nation the other day. This government has passed one piece of legistlation since being elected. One piece. So much for a legislative agenda.

These guys couldn't organise a root in a brothel, let alone manage a country.

[h90]

What's this talk about inciting a coup? No one believes it is possible anytime soon.

I don't agree with PAD demand to oust the government, but considering daily fluctuations with Constitution amendment and meddling with judiciary, there isn't really any other choice - time to give PPP the benefit of the doubt has passed - they are not going to abandon their politically provocative ideas, only perhaps create an illusion of solving some immediate problems (like truckers threatening to shut down major roads) to score some sympathy points with the public.

In the meantime yesterday's session in Parlament was rather telling of their real intentions. They WILL try to let Thaksin scott free of all charges, among other things.

I also want to remind people that Thailand is not a presidential republic, change of a Prime Minister is not big deal, he wasn't elected by the people, and the government coalition can fall apart at any moment, it doesn't mean that election results gets overturned. If one day five coalition partners decide to join Democrats and form a new government, it doesn't mean that elections are nullified. The sky is not falling.

Look at the West - every now and then there are news of coalition partners switching camps, even Tony Blair wasn't voted out. No one calls it a "government overthrow". Why all the scaremongering?

Samak has options of how to diffuse the situation without any violence and without calling new elections, it's really not PAD's problem that he is not in control of his own party.

Also I think calls to resolve the problems in parlament are somewhat naive - it has been tried already and it got nowhere. In fact Democrats and the Senate are trying to put the government on the right track as we speak, but PPP refuses to cooperate. Even some PPP members are calling on Dems to negotiate the way out, but they are not in control and can't promise anything.

Bottom line is, even though some PAD actiones and demands are over the board, the main thrust is right, there's no reason for them to stop their rallies until solution is found.

before the last coup no one thought of a coup and it happend.

[hammered]

All in all a bad day for Samak. Government house surrounded and the censure motion accepted. A lot of the recent analysis has been on his not being willing to "die" alone. Now he cannot take anyone with him if he is forced to go or removed by his party, or if a weird realignment occurs.

[samran]

Good point to remind everyone Thailand has a parliamentary system. I would also like to add the historuical point that Margaret Thatcher was removed by her own party when she had a huge huge majority and it was probably at least linked to Poll Tax demonstrations. Yes it is a good point that in parliamentray systems there are government changes without elections. Sometimes those used to presidetial systems seem to overlook this. It may well aslo be the easy way out for short term relief in Thailand right now.

Thats right. Parliamentary democracies are diffuse power structures.

Although this isn't strictly how it works in Thailand, the electors of one seat vote for a person to be that representative. The parliamentary party vote for their leader. That leader becomes the Prime Minister. At the end of the day though, they are no more than a member of parliament, who represent one constituency.

Thatcher was deposed by her party in the UK. No-one called that a coup.

Paul Keating rolled Bob Hawke in Australia by getting 56 out of 100 members of the parliamentary Labor party to vote for him as leader of the party with the largest majority in parliament. He then became Prime Minister, elected by 56 people!! No one called that a coup either. When his government lost power in 1996, he was re-elected as the member for Blaxland in Western Sydney, and was entiled to continue on as an MP. He resigned his seat instead.

John Howard, also in Australia, led his party to defeat on 2007 (oh what a fantastic day..) was only the second serving PM in Australian history to lose his seat in a general election. 50,000 people made that decision, not the 21 million australia citizens.

So if the PPP party decide that Samak isn't their man anymore, cause they are worried about PPP protests, they are totally within their rights to get rid of him. And the PPP are totally within their rights to try and force that situation.

[plachon]

Today has been a victory for the people and democracy so far. The people used their democratic right to demonstrate peacefully and that right was upheld by the police (kudos to BIB), without resort to violence or calling in the military. This is a big step forward on the way things have been handled in the past and it looks like some of the lessons of May 1992 might have been internalised.

What happens now, depends on many factors, but at least there has been a lowering of tensions from 24 hours ago.

Fingers crossed some sensible solutions can be found and Thaksin will be bought to book for his crimes, as a top priority.

[nomoretalksin]

What's this talk about inciting a coup? No one believes it is possible anytime soon.

I don't agree with PAD demand to oust the government, but considering daily fluctuations with Constitution amendment and meddling with judiciary, there isn't really any other choice - time to give PPP the benefit of the doubt has passed - they are not going to abandon their politically provocative ideas, only perhaps create an illusion of solving some immediate problems (like truckers threatening to shut down major roads) to score some sympathy points with the public.

In the meantime yesterday's session in Parlament was rather telling of their real intentions. They WILL try to let Thaksin scott free of all charges, among other things.

I also want to remind people that Thailand is not a presidential republic, change of a Prime Minister is not big deal, he wasn't elected by the people, and the government coalition can fall apart at any moment, it doesn't mean that election results gets overturned. If one day five coalition partners decide to join Democrats and form a new government, it doesn't mean that elections are nullified. The sky is not falling.

Look at the West - every now and then there are news of coalition partners switching camps, even Tony Blair wasn't voted out. No one calls it a "government overthrow". Why all the scaremongering?

Samak has options of how to diffuse the situation without any violence and without calling new elections, it's really not PAD's problem that he is not in control of his own party.

Also I think calls to resolve the problems in parlament are somewhat naive - it has been tried already and it got nowhere. In fact Democrats and the Senate are trying to put the government on the right track as we speak, but PPP refuses to cooperate. Even some PPP members are calling on Dems to negotiate the way out, but they are not in control and can't promise anything.

Bottom line is, even though some PAD actiones and demands are over the board, the main thrust is right, there's no reason for them to stop their rallies until solution is found.

Plus society/comments !

[nomoretalksin]

Hot News:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/20...cs_30076073.php

Quote

Samak dealt parliamentary blow

Besieged Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej suffered another severe political blow this evening when Parliament formally accepted the opposition's censure motion, practically preventing him from seeking a "graceful" way-out through a House dissolution.

The Democrats' censure motion, which was submitted to Parliament authorities earlier this week, was formally put on the House of Representatives' agenda, thus ending all doubts about validity of the motion. The Constitution states that the House cannot be dissolved once a censure motion has been submitted. There had been debate, however, over whether the process of submitting the Democrats' motion had been completed without it being put on the House's agenda. Now that Samak cannot dissolve the House, he has only two options as political pressure mounts:

1. he can try to hang on to his post with unpredictable consequences or 2. he has to resign.

But Samak is looking increasingly isolated. And the fact that the Democrats' motion was put on the House agenda at a time when street protests were intensifying raised a big question whether his allies in the coalition government have turned against him or involved in some kind of a conspiracy against him.

House dissolution had always been Samak's trump card, his only weapon that kept both enemies and suspicious allies at arm's length. Now that he could no longer wield this weapon, his position now looked more precarious than ever.

Unquote

[hammered]

Hot News:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/20...cs_30076073.php

Quote

Samak dealt parliamentary blow

Besieged Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej suffered another severe political blow this evening when Parliament formally accepted the opposition's censure motion, practically preventing him from seeking a "graceful" way-out through a House dissolution.

The Democrats' censure motion, which was submitted to Parliament authorities earlier this week, was formally put on the House of Representatives' agenda, thus ending all doubts about validity of the motion. The Constitution states that the House cannot be dissolved once a censure motion has been submitted. There had been debate, however, over whether the process of submitting the Democrats' motion had been completed without it being put on the House's agenda. Now that Samak cannot dissolve the House, he has only two options as political pressure mounts:

1. he can try to hang on to his post with unpredictable consequences or 2. he has to resign.

But Samak is looking increasingly isolated. And the fact that the Democrats' motion was put on the House agenda at a time when street protests were intensifying raised a big question whether his allies in the coalition government have turned against him or involved in some kind of a conspiracy against him.

House dissolution had always been Samak's trump card, his only weapon that kept both enemies and suspicious allies at arm's length. Now that he could no longer wield this weapon, his position now looked more precarious than ever.

Unquote

Specualtion is that he has outlived his usefulness to Thaksin. Not good for him. A nice easy sacrifice with the main card he held now removed. Expect the Thai political commentators to go overboard on who replaces him and how long he has. And maybe no censure debate until August meaning up to two months for him to survive like this. Be right interesting if the Dems drop the other targets and leave only him. Paranoia time for Mak.

He could I guess call a state of emergency but for that will need military backing which will mean an event needs to happen or possibly the promise of everything the army ever wanted. probably wont happen.

[Herbs]

Am I missing something? Have you guys lived in Thailand for too long? What has happened to, or where is Democracy?

You cannot remove a Government without an election????