Foreigners Performing Volunteer Charity Work In Thailand

[Crushdepth]

Looking at this from the other side, if a western country were to have a natural disaster occur, would they be willing and ready to accept a few thousand volunteers from China or India? Most likely the "thanks, but no thanks" line will come up and no one would really care.

Yeah but most western countries end up with more local volunteers than they know what to do with. But I have some sympathy for Asian countries that don't want legions of hapless foreigners arriving on their doorstep in the middle of an emergency, unable to communicate, coordinate or look after themselves. Volunteers can be a liability and a serious drain on resources if they don't know what they are doing.

Development and other non-emergency stuff is a bit different though. Personally I think it's crazy for governments to ignore a 'free lunch' if volunteers can provide essential services that are in short supply or that many local people can't afford. I'd hate to see people using it as a channel to extend their visas though.

[A_Traveller]

All Alien work activity is covered by the {new} Working of Aliens Act 2008.

Thanks A. Now I can prove to my wife that it's actually illegal for me to take out the garbage, cut the grass, wash the truck....

I'd stop laughing if I were you, there was to my knowledge a case which started on the basis that the 'farang' was taking away a Thai's livelihood because he was undertaking the gardening. The previous tenant had used the individual's services. It took the usual emollient to make that go away. I kid you not.

Regards

[cloudhopper]

All Alien work activity is covered by the {new} Working of Aliens Act 2008.

Thanks A. Now I can prove to my wife that it's actually illegal for me to take out the garbage, cut the grass, wash the truck....

I'd stop laughing if I were you, there was to my knowledge a case which started on the basis that the 'farang' was taking away a Thai's livelihood because he was undertaking the gardening. The previous tenant had used the individual's services. It took the usual emollient to make that go away. I kid you not.

Regards

Oh I believe you, and think it's actually a great addition to the law! That's WHY I'm laughing - is this a great place to be or what?

[PeaceBlondie]

In most cultures, laws are just society's rules, written down. We can analyze why the law exists, but it is the law, based on cultural rules. It appears that Thais are so sure they can take care of Thailand by themselves, that they clearly forbid our help. So be it.

[mijan24]

How about the Guys you see pedalling around with their white shirts and bicycle crash hats, are they legal volunteers covered by some religious missionary code? I have seen them the length & breadth of the country and often wondered ?? are they here on some special visa class?

[colonelsing]

This whole discussion is about charity work in Thailand.So whi is elkangaroo or whatever going on about Americans putting their feet on chairs?What is his problem?If I or anyone else wanted too they could cite some examples of Thai people complaining about any group of farangs from any country but what is the point?It only serves to alienate all the other people of the same group who maybe have not done any of this behavior.I am not the boss of this forum or anything else but I think it would be good if people write things that are not about the topic in question but are only offensive and bigoted then they should be deleted.I personally think kangoroo is lying anyway,but whether he is or not I see he did not even admit to wherever he is from so maybe he is not too proud of it.

[A_Traveller]

How about the Guys you see pedalling around with their white shirts and bicycle crash hats, are they legal volunteers covered by some religious missionary code? I have seen them the length & breadth of the country and often wondered ?? are they here on some special visa class?

I mentioned in a post above there is a non-immigrant visa category [R] for the performance of missionary work or other religious activities with the concurrence of the Thai Ministries or Government Departments concerned.

Regards

[PeaceBlondie]

This whole discussion is about charity work in Thailand.So whi is elkangaroo or whatever going on about Americans putting their feet on chairs?

Sorry, you can blame me for getting off topic about that. Farang customs have nothing to do with Thailand.

[barky]

Doesn't charity begin at home? Why is it that westeners happily turn their back on their own breed that may be in need of help in their own country or even here, but fall all over themselves to help others. Generally you won't see Thais do that. So whose wrong them or us? After all if help from aliens were really wanted/needed by the Thais wouldn't they have no problem in sorting out the paperwork and welcome mat?

[Crushdepth]

Doesn't charity begin at home? Why is it that westeners happily turn their back on their own breed that may be in need of help in their own country or even here, but fall all over themselves to help others.

There's plenty of charity at home, at least in Australia.

So whose wrong them or us? After all if help from aliens were really wanted/needed by the Thais wouldn't they have no problem in sorting out the paperwork and welcome mat?

Hiso government people don't need handouts. People at the bottom of the food chain (ie. those who need it) tend to think differently, but they have no say about the paperwork. Classic case was the tsunami - when Mr Rich Man Thaksin declared that Thailand didn't need outside assistance the departments that actually had to deal with the mess wanted to put a bullet through his head. And people who were directly affected and went months without any assistance from the government weren't overly impressed either.

[A_Traveller]

^ And in the Tsunami case, the land grabs that occurred afterwards {allegedly} are legion, but no pesky outsiders, or heaven forfend audits, of course.

Regards

Edited July 11, 2008 by A_Traveller

[MarkBKK]

OK since I'm not an expert in the legal issues I've fired off a mail to the CSR lead on my team and to the director of one NGO I know and ask them what is the best process. Also tomorrow morning I head up country to a school dedication with US Ambassdor John and various Thai officials will be there from Department of Education and NGOs - I'll ask all of them what their recommendation is.

I'll report back tomorrow evening.

And?

[geriatrickid]

I share PB's sentiments. Unfortunately, if these volunteers disappeared I think alot of destitute weak people and animals would suffer. The Thai government's position on this matter is disgraceful. There are specific things that could be done in respect to basic health care and education without upsetting anyone and the local Thais would not object. Will it be done? Nope. And that's why Thailand will continue to fall behind.

There is a reason why some countries remain gripped by poverty and large gaps between haves and have nots. Habitat for Humanity is a perfect example. It is not unusual to see foreign volunteers working on a project in the USA and Canada. What better way to build understanding than to volunteer? What better way to grow emotionally and learn that deeds not prayers or offerings to gods, or empty slogans will help those in need.

[jts-khorat]

Very simple. As a foreigner, if you want to help out then join a service club such as a local Lions or Rotary club.

As my understanding goes, attending their meetings, making notes, giving financial aid directly (and not through an intermediary Thai), participating in visits to their projects -- this all must be illegal without a work permit.

Just because there are Thais involved that make it possible that the law turns a blind eye is all the mkore reason to not participate, as it helps furthering the status quo and makes the Thais disrespect their own laws. Which, I guess, makes a charitable act exactly the opposite, an unmeritable act.

I am with PB on this: the Thais can and must help themselves as long as they are living in their backwards middle-ages mindset. We can still give them (all) of our money as tourists though, I am sure it will feed the right persons eventually.

[jts-khorat]

Hiso government people don't need handouts. People at the bottom of the food chain (ie. those who need it) tend to think differently, but they have no say about the paperwork.

You are so wrong, Crushdepth.

Thailand is officially a democratic country with elections and the 'people at the bottom of the food chain' have mainly themselves to blame if they are so gullible as to sell their vote for THb 500 at the voting booth. If they do not have the foresight that they will have to repay this THb 500 many times over in corruption and the lack of betterment, then this is true karma.

I would go so far, by behaving this way the 'people at the bottom of the food chain' actually signalling us ignorant westerners clearly that no merit is gained by helping them.

Making merit is the base of their religion, Buddhism, so by rejecting volunteer work, the signal is very clear indeed.

Edited July 12, 2008 by jts-khorat

[Valjean]

OK since I'm not an expert in the legal issues I've fired off a mail to the CSR lead on my team and to the director of one NGO I know and ask them what is the best process. Also tomorrow morning I head up country to a school dedication with US Ambassdor John and various Thai officials will be there from Department of Education and NGOs - I'll ask all of them what their recommendation is.

I'll report back tomorrow evening.

And?

My CSR Lead sent a mail on the Mirror Foundation and we are waiting for their reply. I also sent a mail to the Managing Director at another NGO that brings foreigners into Thailand and asked her view on this. In addition I asked an accountant that does some work for me and does include work permits in her practice. Lastly I’m asking KPMG who does my work permit processing.

I chatted a little about this with people at this event I was at Friday but no one really knew anything really specific.

I suspect it will take a few days of email getting bounced around to get an answer. When I get info I’ll post it here.

[Valjean]

I also send a mail off to the Royal Thai Consulate in the US and asked them. Some other foregin nationals should try theirs.

This is from the FAQ at the Thai Embassy web site

Q: An NGO in Thailand has invited me to go there and work for them as a volunteer for 45 days during my school break. I will not earn any money in Thailand . I am a Belgian college student in Brussels . I understand that I do not need a visa, do I?

A: Although you will work as a volunteer, you do need a Non-Immigrant visa as well as the Work Permit. The NGO must be legally registered with the Thai authority, and that you need a recommendation letter from the NGO for your visa application and the Work Permit.

What I wonder about is the work I know many people do here, with established NGOs that don't get work permits - including me. My son did get the B Visa as I recall. It wouldn't surprise me if the NGO answer is something like "a work permit is required but no one bothers" which would be TIT.

Here are some other data points

AIDE Volunteer Web site

Eligibility:

* At least 18 years old

* Be a native English speaker

* Eligible to receive a tourist visa to Thailand

I submited the question to Global Volunteer Network to see what they say.

From Dragon Fly

How can I organize a visa for Thailand? Can it be extended?

................................................................................

............................

Visas are a necessary fact of international work, and are unnecessarily complicated. Once you sign up to volunteer, we’ll help you to work through the application process while in your home country. You will have to send your passport and an application to the Thai consulate/embassy in your country, where it will be processed and a visa will be added to your passport. If you don’t have a passport, you’ll have to apply for one before a visa can be attained.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not to be beating a dead horse too hard - thank you very much, Valjean, for working on your response - but I overlooked this previous point you raised. "This thread is another classic example of blaming someone else, here conveniently the Thais but it could be anyone and I sure back home it was, instead of just taking responsibility for what is you want and going and getting it. Heck there are kids within a stones throw of your house today who would love to have an English tutor. Do you need to ask permission?" I used to help my own six kids with their homework. I got paid a minimum wage to tutor American Indian children. I tutored foreign aliens in my home country. I went to Nicaragua, where they asked me to teach English to poor kids, for free. I did that, and then in Mexico - when not risking my life as a paying volunteer, unarmed, in a conflict zone - I tutored the native kids who lived a stone's throw from me. All done legally.

No Thai kid lives within a stone's throw of me, and two stones away they live in ten room houses. Not only would I need permission to do it, I cannot get that permission (and I am qualified). But I could ride to the orphanage and do volunteer work there, again. Just one problem: IT VIOLATES THE LAW OF THE LOVELY KINGDOM OF THAILAND. End of story. Unless I am mistaken.

[MarkBKK]

A: Although you will work as a volunteer, you do need a Non-Immigrant visa as well as the Work Permit. The NGO must be legally registered with the Thai authority, and that you need a recommendation letter from the NGO for your visa application and the Work Permit.

Hmmm ... looks like the Thai Embassy thinks you do need a work permit, doesn't it.

Looks like maybe, just maybe, and consider the possibility for a second, all the people saying you do need a work permit, and that it's illegal to work as a volunteer without one (or the piece of paper from the Ministry of Labour) might just be onto something, eh?

[Crushdepth]

What I wonder about is the work I know many people do here, with established NGOs that don't get work permits - including me. My son did get the B Visa as I recall. It wouldn't surprise me if the NGO answer is something like "a work permit is required but no one bothers" which would be TIT.

In practical terms, it is very difficult to get a legitimate 'volunteer' work permit (and I do know people that tried and NGOs that directly sought permission from the government) and yes not many people bother. However, i) it is illegal ii) people who do this are vulnerable to being turned in by scumbags and petty extortionists and iii) there are no shortage of scumbags and petty extortionists.

Basically the odds of getting away with it are fairly good if you keep your head down but don't think that 'doing good' will get you a sympathetic hearing if you get busted. Not while there's a baht to be made, anyway...

[PeaceBlondie]

Would we be okay now to make a reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence, and close this thread

a. Good deeds are good. Everybody should honor good deeds, and those who do them. In fact, maybe everybody should do good deeds. Good deeds are very, very good and quite likely meritorious.

b. Voluntary charity work done by farangs in Thailand is almost always illegal, even when done with the best of intentions and done honorably.

c. As Jiminy Cricket told Pinocchio, let your conscience be your guide, and have an open return ticket home to your country, and tea money to bribe the officers.

Anything else?

[A_Traveller]

Just to add that in another thread this LINK shows that

Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as labourers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training, or who violate the Alien Employment Act.

may be placed on the persona non grata list.

Regards

PS On closing, I'd still like to hear what responses Valjean receives.

[Tyke]

Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

I don't think Thai law discriminates charity work from any other work, unpaid or not, that a foreigner in Thailand carrys out, without the work permit (not just any work permit) specifying that the person is allowed to carry out that specific job. For example, if a foreign teacher has a work permit for school teaching, would he/she be allowed to do unpaid voluntary work on the side?

[jts-khorat]

Therefore, the very Law that makes Thailand a civilized country FORBIDS foreigners to do charity work. Unless of course the managers of the Thai Charitable Foundation wish to follow Thai Law and get the required work permits meticulously approved in writing by the proper Thai authorities. However, it appears that usually, the very Thais who solicit farang to help them, are incapable, unwilling, or too lazy to get the right paperwork signed by the right Thai officers.

Therefore, it seems quite logical, fair, reasonable and KIND for farang to obey Thai law and not do volunteer work. If Thais choose to ignore the Hill Tribes people, the Burmese, the HIV-AIDS infected Thais, the Thai widows and Thai orphans in their midst, that is no fault of the farang who are forbidden to lift a finger to help.

I will be bold enough to advise those Thai charities who wish to use the volunteer services of foreigners. Change Thai law. If you cannot or will not, fine. Just do not be surprised if foreigners seem to show more respect for Thai Law than the Thais show.

I don't think Thai law discriminates charity work from any other work, unpaid or not, that a foreigner in Thailand carrys out, without the work permit (not just any work permit) specifying that the person is allowed to carry out that specific job. For example, if a foreign teacher has a work permit for school teaching, would he/she be allowed to do unpaid voluntary work on the side?

My understanding of the law: as this teacher has a work permit with his school and if his school is directly involved with -- let's say -- an orphanage, or his school instructs him to work there, he is covered by law.

Also it might be much less hassle if his second job is simply added to his work permit, in case of volunteer work maybe his second employer would not have to go through the maze of expensive regulations to get him. Adding a second job to an existing work permit is, so I heard, relatively easy.

This is why one NGO was quoted previously (quite sneaky!), that they assume that the person has already a valid work permit in-country, thereby pushing all responsibility on the volunteer.

[sriracha john]

No thread on work permits and/or volunteering is complete without the classic:

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again.

Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work.

[Jimjim]

Blacklisting is rare for working without a work permit.

[Valjean]

I don't know where a good deed stops and a volunteer work starts. Having a kid come by your house to work on his English or standing up in front of a classroom. It's hard to imagne someone getting thrown out of Thailand for helping in their community.

And I still stand by what I posted but perhaps a little less stridently. I appreciate that some people might be here under visa conditions that they wouldn't want any risk. However so far it seems like most haven't really looked at ways to do this or thought of creative alternatives. There was someone who when through the WP process and coudn't get the sign-off and I respect that they tried.

Here's a link to a 35 page list of development organizations working in Thailand. Take one like Duang Prateep Foundation, go to their web site and there is information about applying for volunteer work.

I remain interested how the NGOs deal with this - I don't think in most cases their volunteers are getting WP. Whether they are just ignoring the law or working under special provisions - lets see what the NGOs say.

[Mario2008]

I have had no problems on getting a non-immigrant visa with yearly extensions and a workpermit based on my volunteerwork.

I also know that there are many western NGO's in Thailand who have volunteers here with a visa and WP based on volunteer work. There are also several charities in Thailand set up by westerners.

It just requires a lot of paperwork and the signature of the right person is also helpful. Doing volunteer work in Thailand is not illegal and much appreciated. But it is hard to do it legal and it cost you 3,100 baht for the WP. That and not knowing how to deal with the paperwork makes that many charities don't bother with applying for a WP for their volunteers.

[PeaceBlondie]

It is good to hear directly from posters like Mario2008, of how he actually got a work permit, at great expense and much trouble. It is widely rumoured that the price for a work permit will soon be much, much higher.

Valjean, I will also try to be less strident. Your link to Duang Prateep Foundation said nothing about work permits, did it? Maybe I just did not find it. Would you please choose 5 or 10 of those links to NGO's and locate the specific promises by them, to get work permits? Thanks.

From what I understand about volunteer work in Thailand, every good deed is defined by law as work, requiring a work permit. Every. No exceptions, except maybe volunteer staff working directly for foreign embassies. That seems insane, but that is the law. Speaking of sanity, I know of no sane farang who wishes to lose their visa status and be deported. It is not difficult to imagine someone being thrown out of Thailand for helping the community. It is possible for a good deed to be punished.

[PeaceBlondie]

Actually, I started doing what I asked Valjean to do. I started through that 35 page list, trying to attempt to find clear guarantees from the NGO's that they would get the work permit for volunteers in Thailand. Keep in mind that it is extremely difficult even for an agency that knows how, and it takes longer than some volunteers would even be working.

Many of the URL's are for NGO's or foundations that would not likely use foreign volunteers, or which are for other purposes. Some websites are in Thai, or some other Asian language, or are for work in other countries like Cambodia. I opened about ten likely-looking URL's and found nothing about volunteers in Thailand, let alone a promise to secure work permits and a proper visa (remember, you cannot just work on any old visa, sometimes not at all on a retirement visa, nor a tourist visa). So I will leave the proving to those who care to prove that even ten out of a thousand NGO's in Thailand even hint at promising they might provide a WP to somebody.

Let's be positive and "imagine all the people, wanting to be..." volunteers, and actually finding 15 agencies that promise a WP (even if they are lying). Is that where you wish to work, doing what they do, when they do it? Probably not.