Foreigners Performing Volunteer Charity Work In Thailand

[Mobi]

At the end of the day, most of us know the situation in Thailand with regards to doing charitable work. For the vast majority of expats who do their “bit”, either full time, or whenever they have time to spare, they do so without work permits, as it is simply not possible to do otherwise.

I believe there are a number of people working ‘illegally” in this manner who have no inkling of the fact that what they are doing is illegal, and that they could be jailed or deported for so doing. I am talking here about the retirees, tourists, and some working expats, who give up their weekends, evenings and days off to help at the local orphanage, AIDS centre , prison visits, slum visits, fund raising etc. After all, many farangs wouldn’t dream that the authorities would wish to pursue them for carrying out such worthwhile activities on behalf of the underprivileged and suffering.

Then there are the full time charity workers, who are recruited by NGO’s etc, who certainly should be aware that they need work permits.

My personal experience is in Pattaya where I have put in time at a children’s mission which looks after upwards of 20 kids who one way or another have been abandoned in the slums, with one or both parents either being drug addicts, criminals, illegal aliens and so on. They are not orphans so they do not fit into the ‘system’ and the Thai orphanages and children’s homes cannot take them. Many of them have been sexually abused, and have been rescued from the clutches of paedophiles. In addition, the mission makes regular visits to the slums to hand out food and necessities, makes prison visits and provides food and necessities to young women who have been incarcerated, often with their babies, provides scholarships and schooling to local poor kids, and a host of other charitable activities. The mission is run by and elderly Canadian couple, who after many years of struggling, have finally managed to get their charity officially registered in Thailand, despite the opposition form a whole range of vested interests, including the Thai Christian church. Yes they are Christians, and yes they started their life in Thailand by opening a Church in Pattaya. Then they started to help some kids that they found in the slums and took them home to take care of them, and were subsequently asked by the Thai social services to set up a permanent home for such kids, as the Thai authorities were unable to help. This they did, and the mission was born. They work very closely with the local social services, and every kid that they care for has the authority’s approval. The mission has two to three full time Thai workers, and all the rest are farang volunteers – all giving their time, without the benefit of work permits. Religion has taken a back seat in this operation, and is not rammed down anyone’s throat, and many of the helpers are not Christians, (including me).

Then there is the centre in Rayong that takes care of HIV positive children. It is run by the Catholics, but many of the helpers are farang volunteers without work permits. There are many other, similar such charities in and around the Pattaya area, mainly taking care of impoverished and deprived children who are least able to take care of themselves.

I am not taking sides in this, but In the Pattaya area, in particular, there is a desperate need for charitable work which the Thais, for one reason or another, will not or cannot undertake. Without the contribution of “illegal’ farangs, there is no doubt that many kids would die, or be subject to a life of misery and abuse.

How many of these farangs realise that they are risking their very existence in Thailand by doing such work? Impossible to say, but many do, and have decided that the risk is worth taking.

But I would never condemn anyone who declined to offer help on the basis that they may be arrested.

[Mario2008]

Doing volunteer work is a nobel cause and needed. But that makes it only the more strange that the Thai government makes it hard for foreigners to volunteer. Also, is it too much to ask from a charity your are willing to donate your time to helping you in doing it in a legal way, in essence helping with a WP? Most chariies won't and seem to ignore the fact a foreigner needs a WP.

[PeaceBlondie]

If two of the oldest, most prestigious govt. schools in northern Thailand refused to even try to make their full time teacher legal, and the provincial labour officer said they had never given a work permit to a teacher, do you think it is any easier for a volunteer to become legal? Yet it can be done. It simply, almost always, is not done. And it is not the farang's fault. As Mobi just said, you cannot blame the farang for not volunteering. But we commend those who volunteer.

[samskywalker]

Doing volunteer work is a nobel cause and needed. But that makes it only the more strange that the Thai government makes it hard for foreigners to volunteer. Also, is it too much to ask from a charity your are willing to donate your time to helping you in doing it in a legal way, in essence helping with a WP? Most chariies won't and seem to ignore the fact a foreigner needs a WP.

I have been doing charity work in Thailand for the past 19 years, the first nine of which I was on a tourist visa while working in the middle east. I came out here originally during vacatin times to help 3 Americans who had set up a small center for half-Thai, half-American kids left behind when the US Armed Forces pulled out of Udon Thani in 1975. Two of the three were retirees from the Air Force married to Thai wives. I came back to Thailand permanently (I too have a Thai wife and 2 Thai-American children) in 1998 fulltime but I got a work permit and taught at the local university under contract for 8 years with a work permit. Then I hit the big 60. I simply applied for a married to a Thai visa and renew every year. I saved money and receive annuities sufficient to stay in Thailand and renew my visa yearly We took in kids to live with us and have been doing so since 1998. Everything is registered in my wife's name and we operate freely. In April this year at Khon Kaen University my wife was presented a special award from His majesty (he sent his senior cabinet minister to do the actual presentation on his behalf for "her" work with indigent children. We also received awards from the education ministry for establishing 39 English book libraries in primary schools and for renovating rural schools, providing free supplies, uniforms, and books to the kids as well as desks and other furniture and other support. We have had 331 foreign volunteers out here from 33 different countries and many more have written and are planning to come out--and do free everything--- nothing for money. The government sends us the kids to stay with us and we work closely with the welfare department, department of social services at the hospital and with the police department. The governor and the president of the local university officiated at the opening of the center. None of our volunteers has had a volunteer visa but they are limited to serve only for the time on their visit visa, most do service in the schools for 2 weeks or less or within the community. We have assisted over 2,000 kids in the community, bought uniforms for kids and raised 65 kids at the center so far with plans to continue indefinitely. We do not sollicit funds in Thailand. But my friends back home sure like to help out and support our efforts. I encourage you to buy a uniform for a kid in your vicinity and present it to him or her. The government does not interfere in personal gifts giving. Just do it, don't make a fuss over it and simply fade away as soon as possible, hit and run.

[jts-khorat]

Doing volunteer work is a nobel cause and needed. But that makes it only the more strange that the Thai government makes it hard for foreigners to volunteer. Also, is it too much to ask from a charity your are willing to donate your time to helping you in doing it in a legal way, in essence helping with a WP? Most chariies won't and seem to ignore the fact a foreigner needs a WP.

I have been doing charity work in Thailand for the past 19 years, the first nine of which I was on a tourist visa while working in the middle east. I came out here originally during vacatin times to help 3 Americans who had set up a small center for half-Thai, half-American kids left behind when the US Armed Forces pulled out of Udon Thani in 1975. Two of the three were retirees from the Air Force married to Thai wives. I came back to Thailand permanently (I too have a Thai wife and 2 Thai-American children) in 1998 fulltime but I got a work permit and taught at the local university under contract for 8 years with a work permit. Then I hit the big 60. I simply applied for a married to a Thai visa and renew every year. I saved money and receive annuities sufficient to stay in Thailand and renew my visa yearly We took in kids to live with us and have been doing so since 1998. Everything is registered in my wife's name and we operate freely. In April this year at Khon Kaen University my wife was presented a special award from His majesty (he sent his senior cabinet minister to do the actual presentation on his behalf for "her" work with indigent children. We also received awards from the education ministry for establishing 39 English book libraries in primary schools and for renovating rural schools, providing free supplies, uniforms, and books to the kids as well as desks and other furniture and other support. We have had 331 foreign volunteers out here from 33 different countries and many more have written and are planning to come out--and do free everything--- nothing for money. The government sends us the kids to stay with us and we work closely with the welfare department, department of social services at the hospital and with the police department. The governor and the president of the local university officiated at the opening of the center. None of our volunteers has had a volunteer visa but they are limited to serve only for the time on their visit visa, most do service in the schools for 2 weeks or less or within the community. We have assisted over 2,000 kids in the community, bought uniforms for kids and raised 65 kids at the center so far with plans to continue indefinitely. We do not sollicit funds in Thailand. But my friends back home sure like to help out and support our efforts. I encourage you to buy a uniform for a kid in your vicinity and present it to him or her. The government does not interfere in personal gifts giving. Just do it, don't make a fuss over it and simply fade away as soon as possible, hit and run.

So you are actually agreeing, that even though you are recognized on the very highest level of Thai society, this same society (and you) have had over 300 foreigners working here illegally and without the legal protection they should have been due. Those same government offices who should give you real help do so by actually conspiring with you to break Thai law.

At least you do take care that your volunteers overstay on their own, not while they work for you. :-(

If your contacts are really as good as you say it is a total mystery to me why you and your wife let it happen that your project is endangering your volunteers and why you do not receive more than empty paper awards from the powers-that-be, instead of real signatures on the papers needed...

Sorry, I guess I am a cynic today.

[Mario2008]

I have been volunteering in Thailand for 9 years now. For 4 years just on tourist visa's during my hollidays and I didn't care about the workpermit. You can't even get it on a tourist visa. And yes, normaly nobody cares. Army, Border Patrol Police, Police and Immigration al knew of my volunteer work without WP and just thanked me for it.

But it makes a big difference if you are permanantly living here. Since 5 years I live in Thailand on basis of my volunteer work and have a workpermit for that. Without a workpermit you are subject to imprissonment, a fine and deportation. Under the curent rules the charity it self could be fined 100,000 baht.

If someone has an argument with you or the charity they just have to pick up the phone and you can pack your things. That's the risk you take and I think a charity shouldn't ask that from a volunteer who is living in Thailand, but just arrange the workpermit.

That said, samskywalker, you and your wife do a great job and I have rgeat respect for that. I have done a lot of fund raising in Thailand and with embassies. If you need something I might be able to connect you with a company or organisation. Just write me a personal message.

[rijb]

samskywalker,

I fully subscribe to your "hit and run" approach to making a difference. Isn't it shocking how these ungrateful Thai's don't fall all over themselves whenever a benevolent 'round eye' deigns to help them out of their plight?

I noticed you're a 'newbie' too. I left Udorn in July '75. I was also stationed in Korat in '72. In case you're wondering, I married the mother of my half-Thai, half-American kids over 30 years ago.

I live north of Chiang Rai. But, I'd like to learn more about your center.

Edited July 13, 2008 by rijb

[Valjean]

I think there are a few issues mixed up here.

The Thai government does has a right, in fact an obligation, to oversee the activities of foreign visitors. We may think their policy and management of the policy isn’t optimum but this is a fundamental role of the government and all do it. Everywhere there are rules and regulations.

In my experience and I’m sure for the vast majority who have done volunteer work the actual recipients of your efforts are quite grateful and gracious. I would not confuse government bureaucratic policy as meaning your time and efforts won’t be welcome. They complicate it for

sure but if you can get around this there’s most likely a rewarding experience ahead for you with heartfelt appreciation.

I suspect one area of confusion here is the difference between foreign visitors coming for a short stay and doing volunteer work with an NGO. Perhaps technically they should have a work permit but I suspect in many cases getting what I think is the B Visa that a business person should get before coming here to engage in business activities (which you could differentiate from working here). It lets you do non-tourist activities for a limited time and scope. Also for these short term visitor should there ever be an issue with letter of the law compliance the implications for them would be a lot less than one of us who consider this home. This is where all of us doing some homework could help clear things up.

Lastly it’s quite common that the whole concepts and legal frameworks of what constitute a NGO or not for profits concern are not as well defined and consistent in emerging markets. It’s one of the challenges of multi-nationals companies and NGOs going into any emerging market and trying to determine who’s legit and who’s not. For instance in the US the Internal Revenue Service is the watchdog via the tax-exempt status of non-profits. If things seem inconsistent that would be typical for the situation.

[Mario2008]

Volunteers get a non-immigrant O visa.

[sylviex]

The Thai government does has a right, in fact an obligation, to oversee the activities of foreign visitors.

Of course.

We may think their policy and management of the policy isn't optimum but this is a fundamental role of the government and all do it. Everywhere there are rules and regulations.

Clear regulations on volunteer work exist. Many organizations are simply disinclined to follow them, making foreign volunteers illegal workers.

In my experience and I'm sure for the vast majority who have done volunteer work the actual recipients of your efforts are quite grateful and gracious. I would not confuse government bureaucratic policy as meaning your time and efforts won't be welcome. They complicate it for sure but if you can get around this there's most likely a rewarding experience ahead for you with heartfelt appreciation.

But then the Thai government is not overseeing the activities of foreigners, is it (if I understand your suggestion correctly) ?

I suspect one area of confusion here is the difference between foreign visitors coming for a short stay and doing volunteer work with an NGO. Perhaps technically they should have a work permit but I suspect in many cases getting what I think is the B Visa that a business person should get before coming here to engage in business activities (which you could differentiate from working here).

Under Thai law, volunteering comes under the definition of "work".

(Though "volunteer" organizations may, indeed, sometimes be more like businesses .)

Lastly it's quite common that the whole concepts and legal frameworks of what constitute a NGO or not for profits concern are not as well defined and consistent in emerging markets. It's one of the challenges of multi-nationals companies and NGOs going into any emerging market and trying to determine who's legit and who's not. For instance in the US the Internal Revenue Service is the watchdog via the tax-exempt status of non-profits. If things seem inconsistent that would be typical for the situation.

Whether the work is paid or unpaid, Thai law requires a work permit. There's no ambiguity about it.

By the way, this topic has recently been discussed in the Chiang Mai forum : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Volunteer-Op...ty-t192766.html

Edited July 13, 2008 by sylviex

[Old Man River]

Very simple. As a foreigner, if you want to help out then join a service club such as a local Lions or Rotary club.

As my understanding goes, attending their meetings, making notes, giving financial aid directly (and not through an intermediary Thai), participating in visits to their projects -- this all must be illegal without a work permit.

Just because there are Thais involved that make it possible that the law turns a blind eye is all the mkore reason to not participate, as it helps furthering the status quo and makes the Thais disrespect their own laws. Which, I guess, makes a charitable act exactly the opposite, an unmeritable act.

I am with PB on this: the Thais can and must help themselves as long as they are living in their backwards middle-ages mindset. We can still give them (all) of our money as tourists though, I am sure it will feed the right persons eventually.

If you are interested in doing charitable work in Thailand, you can find a way to do it. However, if you are not interested in doing charitable work in Thailand only because Thais are involved in their own country, then better you don't. You won't be missed.

[PeaceBlondie]

We are not debating the goodness of good works We are debating the badness of good works. It is bad to break a law. I honestly see, here and in the Chiang Mai debate just cited, that it does not matter one bpen rai that Thai charities make a mockery of their own Kingdom by clearly refusing to obey their own laws. All in the name of good works, merit, or charity. How do you say in Thai, "The end does not justify the means"? How do the grateful Thai charities say, "We are so grateful that you came here illegally, broke our laws, etc., to do what Thai people do not do for their own citizens"

[sriracha john]

No thread on work permits and/or volunteering is complete without the classic:

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again.

Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work.

It's interesting reading all the various posts talking about all sorts of volunteer work and the various aspects of it and who may or may not need this or that in one situation or another.... but what really strikes me is that many people are apparently having a really hard time understanding the green text. The way I read it, is...

There are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

[jts-khorat]

We are not debating the goodness of good works We are debating the badness of good works. It is bad to break a law. I honestly see, here and in the Chiang Mai debate just cited, that it does not matter one bpen rai that Thai charities make a mockery of their own Kingdom by clearly refusing to obey their own laws. All in the name of good works, merit, or charity. How do you say in Thai, "The end does not justify the means"? How do the grateful Thai charities say, "We are so grateful that you came here illegally, broke our laws, etc., to do what Thai people do not do for their own citizens"

Still 100% with you on this, PB, as seemingly are many others who have lived here for a while.

[scyriacus]

We are not debating the goodness of good works We are debating the badness of good works. It is bad to break a law. I honestly see, here and in the Chiang Mai debate just cited, that it does not matter one bpen rai that Thai charities make a mockery of their own Kingdom by clearly refusing to obey their own laws. All in the name of good works, merit, or charity. How do you say in Thai, "The end does not justify the means"? How do the grateful Thai charities say, "We are so grateful that you came here illegally, broke our laws, etc., to do what Thai people do not do for their own citizens"

dear peaceblondie, i am a bit disappointed about your course of argument. if you want to do charity in thailand, don't do it your way, do it their way! if their way is applying for a work-permit first, so apply. what's your real problem? could you please be specific about what charity you could not do because of thai bad laws?? where's the mockery? farangs (aliens) are responsible for working illegal and trying to excuse themselves: "but it's for free" (can you prove, money has flown?) therefore any work, free or not free, requires a permit. i don't like it, but i understand it.................

[wintermute]

I wonder how many of you guys have had a look at the history of "charitable organizations" in SE Asia? There is a good reason why the Thai government is not a big fan of these foreign groups coming in. Oftentimes NGO and charitable orgs are fronts for government intelligence agencies. Go google up Peace Corps and their past affiliation with the CIA or read about "Air America" or "US AID" in Laos during the Vietnam war.

Even if some of the groups that were formed to do work after disasters are legitimate it requires a lot of changes in the lawbooks to accomodate them. These laws were put into place to prevent infiltration, recruitment, and intelligence gathering. There is a very good reason for all of this and it's not just Thais being ethnocentric or envious like a lot of people are assuming.

Edited July 13, 2008 by wintermute

[ChiefBEM]

So PB, if a swarm of Dubliners or Dubaians decided that they wanted to go help the poor people of Dallas would there be no requirement for any work permit? I think that somebody should tell the Mexicans if this is the case and they could all go do some volunteer work (wink wink) in Dallas. Are you sure about this?

No thank you!

We already have Mexicans on just about every street corner wanting to "volunteer" to help you with yard work and just about every thing else.

Regards,

ChiefBEM

[m02]

While I have read through this thread starting from PeaceBlondie's initial comment, I am having some difficulty grasping what the purpose of it all is. If its just to make a 'disgruntled' statement of fact, I can understand the feelings behind it and sympathize; but if it is meant to achieve a means of dealing with the situation positively then outside of a few well meaning words of advice that have been given nothing much seems to have been accomplished.

Part of the problem seems to lie in a lack of historical perspective. It is very easy to say that the fault lies within Thai society, because in fact that is partially true, but not totally. Besides being used by international groups with agendas to undermine and change societies all around the world to match their specific doctrines and world views, non-profit and religious groups from Western societies generally carry with them an enormous amount of baggage of racial discrimination and of arrogant intolerance for other cultures. Meaning that a lot of what seems indefensible ethno-centric behavior by Thai bureaucrats and others against well meaning and sincere Westerners, is actually the result of previous indefensible condescending and insulting behaviors and actions by Western organizations and individuals against the Thai government and people.

For example, back in the late 70s and early 80s when the Cambodian refugee crisis broke, a flood of NGOs descended in mass upon Bangkok, a large portion of whom had only tourist visas. Back then the Thai government's policy was to work as closely with humanitarian organizations as possible, and they bent over backwards to show everyone consideration. When the numbers of foreign volunteers on tourist visas kept swelling they asked all agencies to Please have their workers get non-immigrant visas before leaving their home countries as it was technically illegal for them to work. The response from many, probably most especially those newly arrived, of the organizations was to express outrage at the ingratitude of the Thai government. The Thais set deadlines and then set new ones, all the while giving the volunteers extensions after extensions. Finally they said it had to stop; however, in the interest of maintaining harmonious relations they would change the visas of all volunteers working for registered NGOs from tourist to one that would allow them to work if the NGOs would simply bring the passports in, although to do so in-country required the government to technically break their own laws. The response from many NGOs was again indignation.

There were around sixty or seventy registered NGOs at that time that were members of the central NGO coordinating committee, eighteen of which were original members and who held membership in the executive council. Out of the eighteen only two in-country directors were Thai. When we were voting on hiring a full time coordinator I seconded a motion to table the recommendation by the search committee to hire a former American Peace Corp volunteer who had been working at one of the universities in Bangkok. The argument against being that what was needed was someone with stature and knowledge of the upper levels of the Thai government not an office manager, and for the money we could hire some one such as a former Thai Minister of Foreign Affairs. That objection went over like a lead balloon and at the end of the session I was taken aside and told that while my objection had merit I "... had to understand who was acceptable to the NGO leadership and who wasn't." Meaning, no Thais allowed.

I could go on and write a book on nonsense like this, but I'll conclude with a couple more examples. Around that time the head of a very large consortium of humanitarian agencies representing millions of dollars in contributions, arrived in Bangkok amid much ballyhoo and held a much publicized press conference which got front page coverage in the local newspapers and abroad. The main thrust of this oh so important individual's rant was the lambasting of the recalcitrant, backward, ungrateful Thai government.

Then there was the horror story of the arrival on the scene of that great Swiss humanitarian agency the International Congress of the Red Cross (ICRC). If there has ever existed a more morally bankrupt 'humanitarian' agency in the annuals of human history I have never heard of it. At a time when thousands of starving Cambodia refugees where literally dropping dead every single day, the munificent ICRC came barging in demanding control not only of all aid operations inside Cambodia but along the border in Thailand as well. Why this demand? Because the Swiss are Neutral! To hel_l with the food delivery program just started by, I think, World Concern to Cambodia after months of negotiations with the Khmer Rouge. And to hel_l with the agencies that had been in Thailand for years, and were then working heroically trying to save as many as they could on the border. All these efforts were disrupted and the food shipments to Cambodia halted for weeks, if not months. Thousands upon thousands of innocents died who could have been saved because these sorry elitists from the West were playing political power games. I believe much of this sorry chapter in Western benevolence was written up in William Shawcross' book: "The Quality of Mercy" (I may have his name misspelled). While little or none of this is remembered in the West, it happened here; and most assuredly all of this and much more is remembered here.

So much for the historical perspective. If someone wishes to make a positive out of all the negative then at least try and be a little innovative. If you want to help and you wish to abide within all the legal constraints, then do so. For instance, for the individual who at times gives martial arts classes; have someone who is Thai put out the word that they are going to hold martial art classes now and then. Maybe even hire a local instructor. Then you sign up as a student. It is perfectly legal for one student to assist other students, just don't assume the role of the instructor. The same goes for teaching English or making baskets or welding: have a Thai establish classes with a Thai instructor and then join as a student . There are as many variations on this theme as an agile mind can devise.

Before signing off I just want to mention that while in many instances a belief in karma, and that the things that happen to you are a result of your previous actions in this life and former ones, may result in attitudes and behaviors that seem uncaring and cold to a Westerner from Christian lands, it isn't necessarily so. I met my wife at the refugee health project I came over to run - she was the senior Thai nurse, and unlike most Thai nurses back then, she was willing to work with the uncouth farang medical staff because she desired to help the refugees in their plight, especially the children. She has worked as a public health research nurse ever since, spending much of her time in the field throughout the northern provinces. One observation comes through loud and clear about where she has seen the most sincere and practical humanitarian assistance being given, and that is the local Buddhist temples where the senior monk is both compassionate and educated. You rarely, if ever, hear about these continually ongoing local efforts, but they are there to be found if you look, and there most certainly is no legal bar to making a donation to a Buddhist temple.

[wintermute]

Wow, M02 this is probably the most intellectual and informed post i've ever read on Thaivisa. Thanks for the inside information that you have on these "charitable" organizations. I knew about the CIA infiltration on many of them but I didn't realize how widespread the problem was for orgs originating from other countries as well.

[Mario2008]

Indeed a nice piece of work. But it is not the right of the Thai governement to regulate NGO's or volunteerwork that is being discussed.

I still don't see why the Thai government has to make it so difficult to volunteer with NGO's that are already established. Most of them are even Thai. Why should I have to pay 3,100 baht a year for a workpermit to help teach Thai children at a Thai governement school? (OK, in reality the school pays for it, but it is me who has to get the WP).

Secondly why do many Thai charities want foreign volunteers but fail to make the volunteers legal? Instead they make them brake the law and be subject to imprisonment, a fine and deportation.

[wintermute]

Indeed a nice piece of work. But it is not the right of the Thai governement to regulate NGO's or volunteerwork that is being discussed.

What do you mean it's not their right? Sure it is, it's their country and this is something a lot of these organizations fail to take into account. Thailand can set whatever regulations they want when it comes to NGOs and if the NGOs don't want to follow them then they can get on the next plane back to wherever.

Secondly why do many Thai charities want foreign volunteers but fail to make the volunteers legal? Instead they make them brake the law and be subject to imprisonment, a fine and deportation.

Probably because a lot of volunteer workers might be tempted to find other jobs on the side and use their NGO work permit as a shell for other activity.

[Mario2008]

Wintermute, regarding my first quote I think you didn't read that one very well. I'm saying it is the right of the Thai government and that that fact is not being discused.

Regarding your second remark, you don't seem to understand what a workpermit is. A workpermit only allows you to work for the job and employer specified in your WP. You cannot do anything on the side on your WP, as that would require another WP.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Mario2008

[wintermute]

Wintrmute, regarding my first quote I think you didn't read that one very well. I'm saying it is the right of the Thai government and that that fact is not being discused.

My mistake.

Regarding your second remark, you don't seem to understand what a workpermit is. A workpermit only allows you to work for the job and employer specified in your WP. You cannot do anything on the side on your WP, as that would require another WP.

Ah, I meant that the NGO could engage workers in side activity that would not necessarily be charitable work...ie. a shell. This has happened in other countries where NGOs were selling equipment commissioned by companies in their home countries making a killing.

[PeaceBlondie]

We are not debating the goodness of good works We are debating the badness of good works. It is bad to break a law. I honestly see, here and in the Chiang Mai debate just cited, that it does not matter one bpen rai that Thai charities make a mockery of their own Kingdom by clearly refusing to obey their own laws. All in the name of good works, merit, or charity. How do you say in Thai, "The end does not justify the means"? How do the grateful Thai charities say, "We are so grateful that you came here illegally, broke our laws, etc., to do what Thai people do not do for their own citizens"

dear peaceblondie, i am a bit disappointed about your course of argument. if you want to do charity in thailand, don't do it your way, do it their way! if their way is applying for a work-permit first, so apply. what's your real problem? could you please be specific about what charity you could not do because of thai bad laws?? where's the mockery? farangs (aliens) are responsible for working illegal and trying to excuse themselves: "but it's for free" (can you prove, money has flown?) therefore any work, free or not free, requires a permit. i don't like it, but i understand it.................

Dear Scyriacus,

I will answer your questions even though you did not answer mine. Their way is not where the worker applies for a WP first, except in the great exception of Mario2008. The employer writes a letter to the Labour Ministry and then...how should I know? I have had three teaching jobs and one volunteer job here, and never even made an application for a WP. I have never discussed with a sentient Thai who knew the process, and who was willing to move their carcass through the process. I would love for them to do it their way, the legal Thai way, but they - Thais, including a high ranking local Labour Ministry officer - did not even know how to do it.

You and I do not need to tell each other how to do it. Go tell the Thais who want our help, to learn how to do it, and simply make the effort to do it, or rely on their own people to do charity work. The mockery is that they say come to Thailand and do what we say and break our laws.

But this is not about me. It is a pervasive avoidance and violation of Thai laws by Thais who care so little about the volunteer farang that they are willing to let us twist in the wind just so that we can help Thais. I do not think you understand - are you Thai?

[cloudhopper]

Then there was the horror story of the arrival on the scene of that great Swiss humanitarian agency the International Congress of the Red Cross (ICRC). If there has ever existed a more morally bankrupt 'humanitarian' agency in the annuals of human history I have never heard of it.

Great post. Having once been the president of a local governing board of the American RC, I can only concur wholeheartedly with the above statement...

[PeaceBlondie]

Only twice did a farang ask me to do charity work. The second case was indirect, separate from his own NGO, which was probably a properly chartered, registered charity. He wanted me to go to the Burmese border and teach English in a Karen refugee camp. He could not even give me directions to the place, nor could his Thai friend contact me. They expected me to find my way without reading or speaking Thai, so I did not go. The first farang who asked me to help him eventually got deported. Oh, then there was that farang lady near Mae Sot who could not even reply to her emails. So there are plenty of farang NGO workers who do not know how to run a charity.

Hundreds, even thousands of farang work here, teaching English, without work permits, even though they meet the requirements to do so. Thais do not honor Thai law, so why should farang play such a dangerous game?

[Old Man River]

No thread on work permits and/or volunteering is complete without the classic:

The penalty for working without a valid work permit in Thailand is basically the same as for overstay:

Jail, fine, deportation and possibly blacklisted from entering the Kingdom again.

Read this info: http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

I repeat, there are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

About 200 western foreigners per year are deported for illegal work.

It's interesting reading all the various posts talking about all sorts of volunteer work and the various aspects of it and who may or may not need this or that in one situation or another.... but what really strikes me is that many people are apparently having a really hard time understanding the green text. The way I read it, is...

There are NO exceptions. All foreigners need a valid work permit.

Let me summarize. All foreigners wanting to work in Thailand in whatever capacity need a work permit. However, you don't need a work permit in charity work to do charity work. You just need a work permit. There are many foreigners (and I mean many) that are members of various service organizations (Lions, Rotary etc.) or foreign chambers of commerce that do charity work in Thailand. These people are gainfully employed in other areas, but still want to give back to the community and do. Those on this thread that say they (we) do this illegally are clueless.

I can understand PeaceBlondie's negative feelings in wanting to give his time for free and not have it accepted because he doesn't have a work permit. Regardless of the country's reasons, there is something wrong with this.

Finally, let me give thanks to the poster who has described some of the organizations I have been involved with as CIA fronts. I will certainly contact Washington and let them know that they owe me pensions that I did not know I qualified for.

[PeaceBlondie]

Old Man River,

Your official statement from the Labour Ministry that affirms your above contention ....says...what, exactly?

[Old Man River]

Old Man River,

Your official statement from the Labour Ministry that affirms your above contention ....says...what, exactly?

I am not sure I understand your comment. If I miss it below, please explain.

There are many foreigners in Thailand that work legally (i.e. valid work permits) that are desirous of giving something back to the the country that we work in. I imagine this is how you feel, but for sure this is how I feel. To do this, we are members of a multiple of different organizations that do charitable work. If you are really interested from a legal standpoint, contact your attorney who I am sure can explain it to you. There is absolutely nothing secretive here. For example, you can go to the American Chamber of Thailand's website and see the charitable work the largest chamber in the country does.

Instead of fighting it, if you are really interested in doing charitable work, you can find ways to do it. Up to you.

[Mario2008]

Old Man River, I beleive you don't understand the concept of a workpermit. A workpermit allows you to work, at a specified company in a specified job. For every job you have, you need a separate WP. Even if you were to have 2 different jobs at the same company. My own WP allows me only to do volunteer work at my school. If I do volunteer work at another school without a WP for that school I break the law.

Yes, you can do charitable work and many do. But it is illegal to do so without a WP for that specific job. Meaning you can be arrested, convicted to a jail term, fined and deported.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Mario2008