Bail Controversy : Court Frees Tourists’ Killer

[thaitanic]

So when's the trial? Anyone know?

[RDN]

So when's the trial? Anyone know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but I'm glad to see a question was raised in the UK parliament about his release on bail:

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...xt/41115w38.htm

[Kan Win]

The Nation

Somchai should be arraigned: prosecutors

Published on Nov 20, 2004

Kanchanaburi's chief public prosecutor said yesterday that the director of the Public Prosecutor's Region 7 Office, having considered a petition for special consideration from Police Sergeant Somchai Visetsingha, agreed with his office that the suspected murderer of two British tourists should be arraigned.

The director considers that Somchai's alleged killing of British backpackers Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd was not carried out in self-defence, said Pichet Kasetsin, adding that prosecutors would present their case to the provincial court on Wednesday.

The following day, Somchai will appear in court to plead guilty or not guilty to the police murder charges against him, and the court will decide whether to accept the case.

Commenting on reports that the parents of the two tourists would come to Thailand to monitor the trial, Pichet said they could if they wished also become co-plaintiffs in the case.

He also said that so far there were no reports that Somchai had intimidated witnesses.

Sucheera Pinijparakarn

The Nation

---------------------------------------------------------------

Parents of victims in disbelief

The parents of British backpackers Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd, who were killed by an off-duty police sergeant in Kanchana-buri in September, have reacted with fury at the "secret" release of the policeman on bail.

Now they plan to fly to Thailand to meet authorities and ask why.

Although reports in the Thai press that the British Embassy was satisfied with the way Thai police had conducted the case, a British Foreign Office spokesman in London has admitted that "concerns" had been expressed to the Foreign Ministry in Bangkok.

Following the release of Sergeant Somchai Visetsingha on November 4, the statement by the British Foreign Office expressed the belief that something was not quite right with the nature of his departure from police custody.

"We too are concerned at the release of the prime suspect involved in the murder of Vanessa and Adam. The decision to release the prime suspect on bail was taken by the Thai authorities and was not publicly announced until November 9. Adam and Vanessa were victims of a senseless murder, and our sympathy remains with their families and friends."

Somchai was released despite having already run away for a month to stay with "contacts" on the Thai-Burma border near Three Pagodas Pass.

The sergeant, widely reported to be a "ladies' man", confessed to the murders when he was arrested.

Graham Arscott, the father of 23-year-old Vanessa, told The Nation: " We want to know why Sergeant Somchai is a special case, since he had already admitted the murders. Why has he been allowed out when there are witnesses out there in the same town?

"This policeman murdered Adam and then cold-bloodedly executed my daughter. My daughter loved Thailand and the Thai people. She sent me an e-mail shortly before she was murdered that she was both glad and sad to be coming home. She said people made her feel like Thailand was her home, then this. I do not believe that the Thai people believe that this policeman should be free."

Somchai has petitioned prosecutors for special consideration in the case, claiming Lloyd attacked him first. He also claims Lloyd spat at him.

The parents insist that their son would not attack anyone without a very strong reason and that he has never spat at anyone.

Somchai has not apologised to Lloyd's parents but has made an apology to Arscott's, saying he was sorry because "she got in the way of the bullets".

This has only served to anger Arscott's father even further, because he is aware of the nature of his daughter's wounds from reports in Britain.

"Execution," he repeated, "is the only way I can describe how my daughter died. She was on the ground when it happened."

Brian Lloyd, a retired banker, 57, and father of Adam, said: "Our children have been murdered, and it took the Thai police a month to catch the suspect, one of their own, so it seems incredible that he could obtain bail.

"I have always been liberal when it comes to the death penalty. Now I think if someone has taken a life, and it's beyond any doubt, then I would ask for the death penalty," he told the Mail on Sunday newspaper.

His wife Lynda said: "You get the flurry of cards and sympathy at first. Then it stops, and people are frightened to talk to you. I cry at the slightest thing, so I don't blame them, but it's hard."

Now the parents of the victims plan to fly to Thailand to petition the Ministry of Justice, the police and even the Tourism Authority of Thailand. They also plan to visit the spot where the young couple died.

They are also in contact with the parents of Kirsty Jones, 23, from Wales, who was raped and murdered in a guest house in Chiang Mai four years ago and whose killer has still not been found, and with the parents of Mark Lametti, 24, a British backpacker from Inverness, who was murdered in southern Thailand earlier this year.

A meeting has also been arranged with Baroness Symons, under-secretary of state in the British Foreign Office.

Meanwhile a British MP has raised the issue in the House of Commons.

MP Anthony Steen said: "You don't release a man on bail who you would expect to be put away for the rest of his life. They did this in secret. Was it something the Thai government is ashamed of?"

Last year 150 Britons died in Thailand, with the causes ranging from murder to suicide and overindulgence, particularly in resorts like Pattaya. Many rapes of British tourists have also been reported, but there has been no prosecution.

No victim has chosen to go through the Thai court system.

Andrew Drummond

Special to The Nation

[taxexile]

..........No victim has chosen to go through the Thai court system..........

that sentence tells you all you need to know about the mickey mouse system of law enforcement and justice in this very much third world country.

[kat]

Many rapes, but no one has been prosecuted, etc.

[Kan Win]

Many rapes, but no one has been prosecuted, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No victim has chosen to go through the Thai court system.

[bodypaul]

Many rapes, but no one has been prosecuted, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No victim has chosen to go through the Thai court system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SCARIER AND SCARIER

[Steely Dan]

It's a sad amoral world we live in! Whilst I agree that the Thai criminal justice system is a standing joke I'm saddened that some people have used this tragic case to make comments about the Thai people in general which border on racism. So what can we do? Lobby our governments and use the British tabloid press to campaign for a boycott of Thai goods until norms of international justice prevail (whatever they may be)? Laudable and neccessary though such actions may be from a human justice point of view I suspect that economics will be the main driver for change. A boom built on borrowing is a shaky edifice and an end to the good times here and tourists going elsewhere will cause more rapid change than anything we can do. How long will it be before we see 100 Baht to the pound? Then of course farang speculators will be blamed by the ruling powers for their own failure just as they were in 1998.

[Golf]

I haven't seen any news about this case anymore. It's not on Thai TV or Thai newspapers. None. It's something I already expected. They don't want to talk about it. They chose to ignore it.

Why we are concerned about it so much? Well, I think if we're using our common sense, we will know why. I don't want to pick on ALL Thais. I am Thai, too! But there are so many things that go wrong in Thailand. Many Thais live their life through these kind of things normally. They have seen too many wrong things until they feel nothing. They became what I called "evil-minded" people. Beneath those smiling faces, there are evils in them. Why they became like this? A decline in their morals, I guess. Thailand has become a materialism country. Everyone will do anything to acquire "things" they want. Right or wrong, doesn't matter. We left our core values all together and became "evils". You may hear news here and there like:

"Man is pissed and shot three security guards just because they've asked for his ID"

"Young husband brutally killed his wife's new born baby because he cried so much and disturbed him while he tried to have sex with the wife"

"College students arrested with "ya baa" confessed that they want money to pay their soccer gambling debts."

This is how I look at the Thai society. Again, not ALL thais are like this, but MANY of them are.

[taxexile]

"Man is pissed and shot three security guards just because they've asked for his ID"

"Young husband brutally killed his wife's new born baby because he cried so much and disturbed him while he tried to have sex with the wife"

"College students arrested with "ya baa" confessed that they want money to pay their soccer gambling debts."

its just like the uk !!!!!

[stumonster]

its just like the uk  !!!!!

or Australia or the US

Mother cuts off baby's arms: police

From correspondents in Plano, Texas

November 23, 2004

A US infant has died after her mother made an emergency call to report that she had cut off the baby's arms.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...55E1702,00.html

[taxexile]

and in the uk they are freed after being found guilty in court whilst in thailand they dont even bother to bring them before a court.

and the victims of these crimes .... well &lt;deleted&gt; them !!! who cares anyway!

yes , its a funny old world.

[RDN]

...and the victims of these crimes ....  well &lt;deleted&gt; them !!! who cares anyway!

yes , its a funny old world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not funny at all! I think the most enraging events in the UK are the release on probation (or maybe at the end of their sentences - I can't remember) of rapists who then commit more rapes. That I find totally unacceptable.

But on Thai TV - last week I believe - was a story about a man and girlfriend chatting at a bus stop at 1 am. Three men on motorcycles (maybe just one motorcycle - my g/f was doing the translation) drive by and pretend that the bike has a problem. So the guy goes to help and gets beaten up and thrown in a stream and drowns. The girl is taken away and gang raped. Don't know if that was reported in the English papers.

[kat]

These kind of stories really freak me out! Yes, there are hideous crimes everywhere, but I have never seen so much casual gang rapes as I have in S.E.Asia. Everywhere has different norms and values, and here, it's all about who has the advantage at the moment. It's not really about if your crazy or evil, or moral, but if you have the ###### advantage. If you happen to be at the disadvantage at a given moment, guess what - you lose. You drown and your girlfriend is gangraped.

[RDN]

These kind of stories really freak me out!  Yes, there are hideous crimes everywhere, but  I have never seen so much casual gang rapes as I have in S.E.Asia.  Everywhere has different norms and values, and here, it's all about who has the advantage at the moment.  It's not really about if your crazy or evil, or moral,  but if you have the ###### advantage.  If you happen to be at the disadvantage at a given moment, guess what - you lose.  You drown and your girlfriend is gangraped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what I found quite awful was this poor girl had to re-enact the events at the bus stop with the three murderer/rapists. (At least, I presume she was forced to). So there she was, sitting on the motorcycle with one of these men in front of her and one behind. Her poor father was going mental watching all this. No anonymity for the girl. Appalling.

[Golf]

Yes, there are many cases like this everywhere in the world, but they're not quite like what's happening in Thailand. Anything could happen to you at any time.

Yes, if you're at disadvantage at that moment, you're screwed. But what makes that to happen? If you're a good person, would you do such things? I think not. That disadvantage monent is deliberately created by those bastards. It's not your fault or bad luck or anything at all.

The society really shows who we are.

[RDN]

About a year ago I lived up the mountain road at the back of Patong. Some nights I'd go back home with the g/f and on the way I'd suggest we stop and have a look at the view of Patong bay. My g/f always said "No, it's too dangerous". She said some "Thai man might come out of the trees and do something". I used to think she was exaggerating, but now I will never stop on a deserted road, day or night.

Having said that, about a week ago a fairly old guy practically begged for a lift to Chalong from Karon at about 2 am. As it was a busy road I said OK and he got in the back of the truck - I definitely wouldn't want him inside. So we get to Chalong and I tell him to get out and then he has the cheek to start asking for money! Fukc me, I've just done him a big favour and he wants money! I just said goodbye and drove off. No more lifts for anybody from now on.

[Kan Win]

CNN

Sixth hunter shot in deer stand dispute dies.

Authorities name suspect, but no formal charges filed.

And all of you, from that country, (click above on CNN to read about it), complaining about Thailand !!!! and the shootings ????? oh deer, oh deer

God Bless this Earth…

Long may you run (by) “Neil Young” and our Earth that is...

Was not a song from him “Six dead in Ohio”

Shame really, now in Wisconsin

Sad days all around us.

Yours as always

Kan Win

P.S. at least he had a "Heart of Gold"

[eljeque]

The Shooter was more than likely Hmong. So, he was Thai or Khmer. He dealt with the situation the same was a child does when he cannot have something that he wants -- in this case, the spot in the tree. He threw a tantrum. It is coincidental that Kan Win happened to choose this article and the shooter is from this neighborhood. I read the article the other day and was shocked a well.

[taxexile]

BBC NEWS  24/11/04  11.26.30 GMT

Officer charged with Thai deaths

A Thai police officer has been charged with killing two Britons in Thailand.

Sgt Somchai Visetsingha is accused of killing backpackers Adam Lloyd, 25, from Northamptonshire, and Vanessa Arscott, 24, of Devon, on 9 September.

Sgt Somchai, 39, is also charged with the illegal possession of a weapon and with evading arrest. He is expected to enter a plea within days.

His trial is due to follow within a month. If found guilty he faces an automatic death sentence.

The deaths of the two Britons and the subsequent hunt for their alleged killer attracted widespread coverage in the British media at the time.

The couple were killed while travelling in the Kanchanaburi region - an area that attracts thousands of visitors every year to the famous Bridge of the River Kwai.

A decision to grant Sgt Somchai bail has angered relatives of the victims. A spokesman for the Foreign Office called the couple "victims of a senseless murder".

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia...fic/4037985.stm

Published: 2004/11/24 11:26:30 GMT

© BBC MMIV

from bbc news today , i guess this means he was in court today.

[kat]

Yes, there are many cases like this everywhere in the world, but they're not quite like what's happening in Thailand.  Anything could happen to you at any time.

Yes, if you're at disadvantage at that moment, you're screwed.  But what makes that to happen?  If you're a good person, would you do such things?  I think not.  That disadvantage monent is deliberately created by those bastards. It's not your fault or bad luck or anything at all.

The society really shows who we are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But not all Golf. There are really good people here. There are good people and atrocities everywhere. What concerns me about S.E. Asia is the violent crimes that are becoming (or are) norms. Maybe they are established norms that are mutating into modern crimes. But then the state assists in formalizing the norms rather than changing them (i.e. RDN's example of rape re-enactment).

I really want the good people of Thailand to win. They so deserve it.

[kat]

CNN

Sixth hunter shot in deer stand dispute dies.

Authorities name suspect, but no formal charges filed.

And all of you, from that country, (click above on CNN to read about it), complaining about Thailand !!!! and the shootings ?????  oh deer, oh deer 

God Bless this Earth…

Long may you run (by) “Neil Young”  and our Earth that is...

Was not a song from him “Six dead in Ohio” 

Shame really, now in Wisconsin 

Sad days all around us. 

Yours as always 

Kan Win 

P.S. at least he had a "Heart of Gold"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I loved your picture of the deer. Such a beautiful, honest animal really. I can't understand why someone would want to murder such beauty unless it was for food.

Kan Win, the point of your post is what? - to state that Americans are not allowed to comment on injustices anywhere? If that is the case, where are you from? If that is indeed your point, no one should really comment on anyone or anything, which is not only contrary to human rights, but totally impractical to any thinking person as well.

Yes, there are bad people everywhere - isn't that a given to the human race? However, societal norms and the way that society defines or even handles crimes and assigns blame is not a given. If you want to use specific comparisons between S.E. Asia and virtually anywhere else in the West, you will find that S.E. Asia unanimously loses on multiple counts of inequality, nepotism, bad goverenance, lack of enforcements, rule of law, sexual violence, and human rights. Let the games begin!

[Golf]

I just love your post here, Kat! You've made my day

Yeah, let's hope that good people of Thailand win... It's just so depressing when I have to hear something like this again and again...I am tired.

Some Thais said to me: "Every time I've seen police, I feel: fear, angry, distrustful, and disgusting."

I agree with him

[Nam Kao]

Re DeerHunter killings

On TV last night the Hmong guy is lying left and right, he must be Thai

[Heng]

Maybe the other hunters didn't ask nicely.

:-|

[Brew]

it's not astonishing. the government shows the people every day that murder is an easy way to solve problems, look at the south and the ongoing execution of drug suspects (just the newspapers do not write about that anymore).

[stumonster]

Thai cop denies killing tourists

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 25, 2004

A THAI policeman has been bailed after denying murdering two British tourists following a row outside a restaurant in western Thailand.

Somchai Visetsing, 39, was accused of shooting dead Vanessa Arscott, 24, and her boyfriend Adam Lloyd, 25, on September 9 close to the famous Bridge on the River Kwai in western Kanchanburi province.

He denied two counts of murder and illegal possession of weapons and his trial will start on December 20, said Kanchanaburi chief prosecutor Pichet Kasetsin.

He was granted conditional bail despite prosecution fears he could interfere with witnesses.

"We did our best to oppose him getting bail but it is the court's decision," Mr Phichet said.

Mr Somchai spent a month on the run in neighbouring Myanmar after the shootings before surrendering to Thai officials on the border.

Thai police said Mr Somchai had confessed to the shootings but the defendant claimed he was provoked by Mr Lloyd during a row.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...55E1702,00.html

are there any witnesses left in thailand....

he will get off.

[chuchok]

Thai cop denies killing tourists

From correspondents in Bangkok

November 25, 2004

A THAI policeman has been bailed after denying murdering two British tourists following a row outside a restaurant in western Thailand.

Somchai Visetsing, 39, was accused of shooting dead Vanessa Arscott, 24, and her boyfriend Adam Lloyd, 25, on September 9 close to the famous Bridge on the River Kwai in western Kanchanburi province.

He denied two counts of murder and illegal possession of weapons and his trial will start on December 20, said Kanchanaburi chief prosecutor Pichet Kasetsin.

He was granted conditional bail despite prosecution fears he could interfere with witnesses.

"We did our best to oppose him getting bail but it is the court's decision," Mr Phichet said.

Mr Somchai spent a month on the run in neighbouring Myanmar after the shootings before surrendering to Thai officials on the border.

Thai police said Mr Somchai had confessed to the shootings but the defendant claimed he was provoked by Mr Lloyd during a row.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...55E1702,00.html

are there any witnesses left in thailand....

he will get off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This man is a digusting excuse for human waste. The more overseas bad raps that this guy gets..the better. that's the only way that the Thai goverment will actually do something.

[george]

Thai policeman enters innocent plea in killing of British tourists

KANCHANABURI: -- A Thai policeman accused of gunning down a young British tourist couple pleaded innocent to murder and weapons charges on Thursday, the prosecuting attorney said.

Sgt. Somchai Visetsingha is accused of killing Adam Lloyd, 25, and Vanessa Arscott, 24, on Sept. 9 in the popular tourist town of Kanchanaburi, about 110 kilometers (70 miles) west of the capital, Bangkok.

On Wednesday, the state prosecutors' office brought four charges against Somchai: premeditated murder of Lloyd, killing Arscott with intent to conceal evidence, possession of an unlicensed gun, and carrying a weapon in a public place without permission.

Somchai pleaded innocent to all charges in the provincial court Thursday, prosecutor Worawit Pankanaratworachai said.

The murder charges carry a maximum penalty of death.

When he spoke to the police and media immediately after his arrest, Somchai admitted killing the two tourists.

He said he drew his pistol and shot Lloyd in a fit of fury after the Briton spat in his face during an argument, but that he had not intended to kill Arscott, whom he unknowingly drove into as she tried to stop him from fleeing. After dragging her body for about 200 meters (660 feet), he said he stopped his car and shot her in his panic to escape.

Somchai eluded a massive manhunt for nearly a month, but surrendered to police on Oct. 7.

He was granted bail pending formal charges in court.

Somchai had petitioned the court to have the charges against him downgraded to killing in self-defense and killing without intent _ charges that do not carry the death penalty.

--AP 2004-11-25

[davethailand]

self defence, hmm

She must have got up after being dragged 200m and started assulting him so the cowardly &lt;deleted&gt; had to shoot her.