Abhisit Vejjajiva Elected New Prime Minister Of Thailand

[Plus]

Abhisit's lot employ the services of a notoriously corrupt Godfather ex-TRT/PPP crony , it's called pragmatism!!!

Newin SWITCHED his allegiances, he refused to participate in Thaksin's game that was leading to destroying the country. Newin is not running around the world, inciting revolutions. Do you see the difference? Ideological difference?

[animatic]

Re Newin's corruption and Democrats - we discussed this already, it was mostly about pragmatism.

Basically, you can accuse Democrats of corruption when they start sweeping Newin charges under the carpet. He is under investigation in some cases already, show us Democrat interference if you want to prove they embrace corruption.

I get a feeling that Dbrenn picks up the same topic in several threads without ever finishing it, or even acknowledging that it has been discussed elsewhere.

Pragmatism? That's an even better one!! Thaksin is corrupt, plain and simple, But, when Abhisit's lot employ the services of a notoriously corrupt Godfather ex-TRT/PPP crony , it's called pragmatism!!! Even though he is charged, obviously corrupt, and banned, and has not cleared his name, they still selectively cuddle up to Newin because he has 22 MP's under his wing. And how is it that he has 22 MP's under his wing? Ask yourself - did a guy like Newin join the Dems out of the kindness of his heart?

Tell you what. Let's redefine other words. I will begin:

1) RED: Censorship. YELLOW: Winning an argument with a political opponent by allowing only the truth to be broadcast

2) RED: Violence. YELLOW: Persuasion by M16

I could go on. Come on, give me another laugh. Pragmatism, indeed. Desperation, more like

Of course you are ignoring that Newin was totally inder Thaksin's wing for a long time,

so there is no completely, purely innocent parties involved. It's politics for god sake.

But Newin walked away from Thaksin, and could not, WOULD NOT,

have been approached to join the Dems prior because he was a Thaksin high up.

But once he blew off Thaksin he was a free agent.

Power is power, use it properly or lose it totally.

Abhisit knows this hard reality.

The realities of taking control to do good for the country don't allow room for

'absolute idealism', but idealism coupled to real politic pragmatism.

There is not a government in this world in power that doesn't have

some screwball and/or corrupt partners or wing of the party to deal with.

Ya see HUMAN BEINGS are involved.... That's the way a natural percentage work..

for self interest only. And many variations of; self interest and getting a living done.

The ones to avoid are the ones totally lost in the avarice of power..

Thaksin fits that category.

Utopias are for College professors to debate over, getting the job done is much messier.

But choosing the lesser of two evils is often what life is about.

Edited May 10, 2009 by animatic

[dbrenn]

There you go again! Your 'degrees' of badness! This, after your original position that corruption was an inexcusable act. Thaksin is corrupt! Newin is corrupt! And, Abhisit is corrupt!

People never stop at being slightly corrupt. If people cross the line and get away with it, they lose their integrity and spiral into taking more and more. Since they have crossed the line, they have to stand idly by while others take more and more. This is what happens to all Thai governments.

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

Your rationalise that Newin is 'free' (from guilt) simply because he crossed over to the other side. Not a high up in the TRT/PPP? Rubbish - he was a banned senior figure, but that didn't stop Mr. Clean Abhisit from using his services. I wonder how much he got paid? I mean, all Thai pols are corrupt, as you correctly pointed out, so why wouldn'tthe Dems have paid Newin for his support? What you are saying there is that crimes can be forgiven, so long as you support Abhisit, which just reinforces the hypocrisy of the yellow position.

Edited May 10, 2009 by dbrenn

[Cayenne]

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

That's a pretty big statement if you are trying to imply Abhisit is as corrupt as Thaksin is. If after 4 years in power the Democrats have cases like the Shin Corp and Rachatda land one then I would agree with you. But if you are going to make this statement after the government is in power for just 5 months, you'd better have plenty of evidence to support this.

[hammered]

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

That's a pretty big statement if you are trying to imply Abhisit is as corrupt as Thaksin is. If after 4 years in power the Democrats have cases like the Shin Corp and Rachatda land one then I would agree with you. But if you are going to make this statement after the government is in power for just 5 months, you'd better have plenty of evidence to support this.

Abhisit will also have to introduce a government policy of extra-judicial murder which results in the deaths of thousands too. Not too many Thai PMs have managed that so he may be safe there

[dbrenn]

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

That's a pretty big statement if you are trying to imply Abhisit is as corrupt as Thaksin is. If after 4 years in power the Democrats have cases like the Shin Corp and Rachatda land one then I would agree with you. But if you are going to make this statement after the government is in power for just 5 months, you'd better have plenty of evidence to support this.

Who's talking about 5 months? Newin has been around for years, as have many of the other pols in the present government. The fact that Abhisit is a new face ignores the fact that he goes to the corrupt old faces to get installed and keep his position. How do you expect things to be different this time around? If Abhisit depends on corruption to get his job, what does that make him? Clean?

What is it with all these 'so and so is not as corrupt as so and so' arguments, and their use to justify military intervention that destroyed what was an evolving democracy? It's like saying that some bank robbers are nicer than others, so we should trust them and hope that they don't degenerate into bad bank robbers. Some hope!

[dbrenn]

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

That's a pretty big statement if you are trying to imply Abhisit is as corrupt as Thaksin is. If after 4 years in power the Democrats have cases like the Shin Corp and Rachatda land one then I would agree with you. But if you are going to make this statement after the government is in power for just 5 months, you'd better have plenty of evidence to support this.

Abhisit will also have to introduce a government policy of extra-judicial murder which results in the deaths of thousands too. Not too many Thai PMs have managed that so he may be safe there

Well who knows what they will do? But one thing is for sure: If people don't like it they won't be able to vote the yellow out once they have diluted the popular vote. However bad they get, we will be stuck with the results.

[hammered]

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

That's a pretty big statement if you are trying to imply Abhisit is as corrupt as Thaksin is. If after 4 years in power the Democrats have cases like the Shin Corp and Rachatda land one then I would agree with you. But if you are going to make this statement after the government is in power for just 5 months, you'd better have plenty of evidence to support this.

Abhisit will also have to introduce a government policy of extra-judicial murder which results in the deaths of thousands too. Not too many Thai PMs have managed that so he may be safe there

Well who knows what they will do? But one thing is for sure: If people don't like it they won't be able to vote the yellow out once they have diluted the popular vote. However bad they get, we will be stuck with the results.

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

[animatic]

There you go again! Your 'degrees' of badness! This, after your original position that corruption was an inexcusable act. Thaksin is corrupt! Newin is corrupt! And, Abhisit is corrupt!

People never stop at being slightly corrupt. If people cross the line and get away with it, they lose their integrity and spiral into taking more and more. Since they have crossed the line, they have to stand idly by while others take more and more. This is what happens to all Thai governments.

As I said, the only difference between Abhisit and Thaksin is a decent haircut. At least Thaksin was elected, and could have been peacefully removed from his position at the ballot box. Thailand is paying such as awful price to install Abhisit and keep him there. And for what? They are all corrupt, as you yourself have admitted.

Your rationalise that Newin is 'free' (from guilt) simply because he crossed over to the other side. Not a high up in the TRT/PPP? Rubbish - he was a banned senior figure, but that didn't stop Mr. Clean Abhisit from using his services. I wonder how much he got paid? I mean, all Thai pols are corrupt, as you correctly pointed out, so why wouldn'tthe Dems have paid Newin for his support? What you are saying there is that crimes can be forgiven, so long as you support Abhisit, which just reinforces the hypocrisy of the yellow position.

Do you think I said that... no, I did not.

You said that,

apparently trying to make things sound different.

Sorry no sale, propagand 101 teaches;

you learn to SLIGHTLY twist the oppositions words

to obscure their meaning, not wholesale changing of meaning in broad daylight.

[ThNiner]

Who's talking about 5 months? Newin has been around for years, as have many of the other pols in the present government. The fact that Abhisit is a new face ignores the fact that he goes to the corrupt old faces to get installed and keep his position. How do you expect things to be different this time around? If Abhisit depends on corruption to get his job, what does that make him? Clean?

What a load of crap. Abhisit is now as corrupt as Thaksin, because he formed his gov't with Newin's faction? That's the only thing you could use against Abhisit? Look at your dad Thaksin for crying out loud. Not only did he employ Newin, he also used Samak, Chalerm, Chaiya, Sanoh and pretty much every big criminal in this country to make sure he got a stranglehold of power in Thailand. What an absurd logic. Abhisit has never had history of corruption. He never appoints any of his family members to powerful gov't positions. Never was responsible for policies of extra judicial killings. He never encourages Thais to kill Thais and destroy the country for his personal gain. The list goes on and on. And now he's eqaully corrupt as Thaksin because he need help from Newin to help revive the country? What a stupid load of crap.

What is it with all these 'so and so is not as corrupt as so and so' arguments,

Because your side started this crap by arguing that everyone else is as corrupt as Thaksin. So Thaksin is OK. Got some problem with memory?

Edited May 10, 2009 by ThNiner

[Plus]

The fact that Abhisit is a new face ignores the fact that he goes to the corrupt old faces to get installed and keep his position. How do you expect things to be different this time around?

But THEY ARE different!

Unlike Thaksin's years when there was a corruption schandal hitting news every week, it's very quiet on that front now.

The difference is that Newin has to hide his schemes from Abhisit now, while back in TRT days he'd got the ideas from the PM himself, when plenty of government policies were designed specifically to steal a lot of money.

[chrislarsson]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

[DaleBlue]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Agreed. PAD also position themselves below TRT.

[hammered]

The fact that Abhisit is a new face ignores the fact that he goes to the corrupt old faces to get installed and keep his position. How do you expect things to be different this time around?

But THEY ARE different!

Unlike Thaksin's years when there was a corruption schandal hitting news every week, it's very quiet on that front now.

The difference is that Newin has to hide his schemes from Abhisit now, while back in TRT days he'd got the ideas from the PM himself, when plenty of government policies were designed specifically to steal a lot of money.

Snohs expose was interesting even if it embarrasses him now and Prasook and Baker's "The Business of Politcs" are both fine examples exposing the institutionalising of policy corruption to a degree not seen before.

[dbrenn]

Who's talking about 5 months? Newin has been around for years, as have many of the other pols in the present government. The fact that Abhisit is a new face ignores the fact that he goes to the corrupt old faces to get installed and keep his position. How do you expect things to be different this time around? If Abhisit depends on corruption to get his job, what does that make him? Clean?

What a load of crap. Abhisit is now as corrupt as Thaksin, because he formed his gov't with Newin's faction? That's the only thing you could use against Abhisit? Look at your dad Thaksin for crying out loud. Not only did he employ Newin, he also used Samak, Chalerm, Chaiya, Sanoh and pretty much every big criminal in this country to make sure he got a stranglehold of power in Thailand. What an absurd logic. Abhisit has never had history of corruption. He never appoints any of his family members to powerful gov't positions. Never was responsible for policies of extra judicial killings. He never encourages Thais to kill Thais and destroy the country for his personal gain. The list goes on and on. And now he's eqaully corrupt as Thaksin because he need help from Newin to help revive the country? What a stupid load of crap.

What is it with all these 'so and so is not as corrupt as so and so' arguments,

Because your side started this crap by arguing that everyone else is as corrupt as Thaksin. So Thaksin is OK. Got some problem with memory?

Oh come on ThNiner! There's no need to get your knickers in a twist and start using rude language, simply because your White Knight doesn't look so clean anymore.

All you can do is add more flawed justification by trying to say that it's OK to associate with crooks - Abhisit forming an alliance with a mafia Godfather, an ex senior TRT/PPP kingpin, is fine as far as you are concerned - simply because he's Abhisit and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. According to the yellows, crooks are supposed to be shunned in every corner of life and purged from politics. Ahem, except where they are needed to make up the numbers for the Democrat party. That's called pragmatism!!!

You guys crack me up! First you all harp on about how terrible corruption is. Now you say that it's OK to get into bed with a notorious Godfather, so long as it means you can get to be PM and hopefully 'make things right' and keep a straight face while offering reconciliation.

[dbrenn]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

[ThNiner]

Oh come on ThNiner! There's no need to get your knickers in a twist and start using rude language, simply because your White Knight doesn't look so clean anymore.

All you can do is add more flawed justification by trying to say that it's OK to associate with crooks - Abhisit forming an alliance with a mafia Godfather, an ex senior TRT/PPP kingpin, is fine as far as you are concerned - simply because he's Abhisit and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. According to the yellows, crooks are supposed to be shunned in every corner of life and purged from politics. Ahem, except where they are needed to make up the numbers for the Democrat party. That's called pragmatism!!!

You guys crack me up! First you all harp on about how terrible corruption is. Now you say that it's OK to get into bed with a notorious Godfather, so long as it means you can get to be PM and hopefully 'make things right' and keep a straight face while offering reconciliation.

So what kind of corruption has Abhisit committed since he's become the PM? What's the actual corruption? And you categorically tell us what corruption crimes Abhisit has done, huh? Understood the question?

[ThNiner]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

I'm really lost for words that would be fit to describe you guys. With the lack of a single shred of evidence, you have to extrapolate all the conspiracy theries avaialble to make a case that yeah may Abhisit might be possibly corrupt. Yet at the same time, you can flatly deny all the crimes and corruption Thaksin has committed even with all the evidence, pending cases stacked against him. You guys are really something else.

[ThNiner]

Where's your sense of morality and decency? Huh?

[hammered]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

The Dems dont belong to the military who are closer to more traditonal politcans. The Dems and military have never had very good relations historically. The mafia can be found in all sides in parliament. They are not a huge omnipotent force but a set of unaligned local groups which side with whoever suits them locally. Even some red leaders can be described as such. The PAD are quite critcal of the Dems right now especially Suthep who is certainly no yellow.

Right now the military and PAD could be seen as acquiescing to a Dem led government as the best option for them. It is simplistic to use pure red propoganda when analysing the players in this game. There are alliances which change all the time.That is how this government was formed and how the preceding ones were formed and how future ones were formed. It is even how TRT was initially formed. This is about power and there are many players but no totally dominant one.

[ThNiner]

The Dems dont belong to the military who are closer to more traditonal politcans. The Dems and military have never had very good relations historically. The mafia can be found in all sides in parliament. They are not a huge omnipotent force but a set of unaligned local groups which side with whoever suits them locally. Even some red leaders can be described as such. The PAD are quite critcal of the Dems right now especially Suthep who is certainly no yellow.

Right now the military and PAD could be seen as acquiescing to a Dem led government as the best option for them. It is simplistic to use pure red propoganda when analysing the players in this game. There are alliances which change all the time.That is how this government was formed and how the preceding ones were formed and how future ones were formed. It is even how TRT was initially formed. This is about power and there are many players but no totally dominant one.

So true. And right now, the leaders of the "Don't Hurt Thailand" movement can also be described as ones of the usual players who, in the past, have sided with everyone at different times and have been waiting for their turn of power as well.

[dbrenn]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

I'm really lost for words that would be fit to describe you guys. With the lack of a single shred of evidence, you have to extrapolate all the conspiracy theries avaialble to make a case that yeah may Abhisit might be possibly corrupt. Yet at the same time, you can flatly deny all the crimes and corruption Thaksin has committed even with all the evidence, pending cases stacked against him. You guys are really something else.

You are lost for words because your argument has no validity.

Depending on the support of a notoriously corrupt, banned, mafia Godfather to get his job makes Abhisit nothing more than a puppet of corruption. To try to whitewash him as clean, when he has corrupt paymasters, doesn't make sense at all.

If you depend on a criminal for your position, that makes you one too.

Abhisit should do the right thing, and get humself elected if he wants to be taken seriously as a politician in his own right. Why does he have such a problem with that?

Edited May 10, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

The Dems dont belong to the military who are closer to more traditonal politcans. The Dems and military have never had very good relations historically. The mafia can be found in all sides in parliament. They are not a huge omnipotent force but a set of unaligned local groups which side with whoever suits them locally. Even some red leaders can be described as such. The PAD are quite critcal of the Dems right now especially Suthep who is certainly no yellow.

Right now the military and PAD could be seen as acquiescing to a Dem led government as the best option for them. It is simplistic to use pure red propoganda when analysing the players in this game. There are alliances which change all the time.That is how this government was formed and how the preceding ones were formed and how future ones were formed. It is even how TRT was initially formed. This is about power and there are many players but no totally dominant one.

Whether or not the Dems and the military get on is beside the point. The fact remains that they are very much aligned in the toppling of a democratically elected civilian government. I agree that the mafia is to be found everywhere. What I can't accept is the cynical way in which the Dems accept the help of the mafia, and then get on an anti-corruption soapbox and drive an agenda based on utter hypocrisy.

[Old Man River]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

Your posts become funnier by the day. OK, prove to me that the Dem's belong to the army, PAD and the mafia. If you are going to make such a dumb comment, then back it up. Can you?

[hammered]

Whether or not the Dems and the military get on is beside the point. The fact remains that they are very much aligned in the toppling of a democratically elected civilian government. I agree that the mafia is to be found everywhere. What I can't accept is the cynical way in which the Dems accept the help of the mafia, and then get on an anti-corruption soapbox and drive an agenda based on utter hypocrisy.

[/quote

Happens the world over when a new government with little time in office comes in.They have bno track record of recent corruptuion whereas a long temr government does. The new lot use it well. Same as when tbhe tories fell in the UK and Labour came in.Now happening with Brown with the roles reversed there. Look at what Cheney and Haliburton are accused of and yet the Dems in the US arentclean eiother. Real politik. Thats why so many people worlwide ate politicos. Thailand is the same there.

[ThNiner]

I think it is quite likely the Dems wont win the next election although who knows what parties and alliances will be around by then.

By the way, the yellows and Dems are not really the same thing although there s some overlap.

There are not only differences. It's also quite obvious that PAD see themselves as being above the Democrats.

Correct. The Dems belong to the army, the PAD and the mafia. And there are no corrupt elements there, as we all know

Your posts become funnier by the day. OK, prove to me that the Dem's belong to the army, PAD and the mafia. If you are going to make such a dumb comment, then back it up. Can you?

He can't and he won't.

[Cayenne]

Your posts become funnier by the day. OK, prove to me that the Dem's belong to the army, PAD and the mafia. If you are going to make such a dumb comment, then back it up. Can you?

Be careful, you never know if these reds will come back to claim to have a video clip of Abhisit making it out with Anupong and Sondhi. They are masters of seeing the world through "red-colored glasses"

[Thai at Heart]

I do find it rather worrying that people believe Thaksin invented corruption in Thailand.

Oh those rose tinted glasses.

[sriracha john]

I do find it rather worrying that people believe Thaksin invented corruption in Thailand.

Has anyone ever posted that?

[TAWP]

I do find it rather worrying that people believe Thaksin invented corruption in Thailand.

Has anyone ever posted that?

Ofcourse not, but anything to cast doubt and win non-directed straw man arguments to try to win some, imaginary, points.