There is plenty of evidence that Hamas purposely caused deaths among the Palestinian population of Gaza and they did not care what age or sex they were. They were happy to kill their own people - including children - for PR purposes. Blame them!

Please tell me how, even if these reports are true, it would justify your smugness in the face of killings of innocent children who never asked for this conflict?

It only means you are doing the same thing as those you abhor.

There is plenty of evidence that Hamas purposely caused deaths among the Palestinian population of Gaza and they did not care what age or sex they were. They were happy to kill their own people - including children - for PR purposes. Blame them!

Please tell me how, even if these reports are true, it would justify your smugness in the face of killings of innocent children who never asked for this conflict?

It only means you are doing the same thing as those you abhor.

Sorry, but you are way off. I think that the deaths of any children are sad, but these seem to have been unavoidable because of the situation in Gaza. What is leading you to suggest that I am pleased about their deaths is to justify your own politics.

If you meant that I am not crying crocodile tears as are Hamas and their supporters, then you would be correct. I am not the type to be putting on false shows of sorrow about anything, but that does not mean that I don't think that what happened to them is very sad. The truth is that I suspect that you are the one who is using not sincere and using their plight to make political points - since you are so quick to accuse me.

By the way, "those that I abhor" are purposely causing their own people to be hurt and killed to further their own fcuked up ends. I am merely expressing my opinion about them on the internet which is not even in the same league.

The truth is that I suspect that you are the one who is using not sincere and using their plight to make political points - since you are so quick to accuse me.

By the way, "those that I abhor" are purposely causing their own people to be hurt and killed to further their own fcuked up ends.

I am merely expressing my opinion about them on the internet which is not even in the same league.

I love the way you move..... ( a wonderful song....)

Sorry, but you are way off. I think that the deaths of any children are sad, but these seem to have been unavoidable because of the situation in Gaza. What is leading you to suggest that I am pleased about their deaths is to justify your own politics.

What lead me to that conclusion was this post:

It does when "the others" purposely target your civilians to blow up with bombs and rockets and have been warned to stop it over and over again.

The Palestinians freely elected Hamas to lead them and they led them right into a sh*tstorm and did not accomplish anything other than completely destroying Gaza.

It just shows; Be careful who you vote for!

You first describe a terrible situation and end it with a smug comment and a roll-eye smilie. I did and still do find that very distasteful and deeply disturbing.

Further, I don't think you know much about my politics; you are trying to assign an agenda to me that I never expressed.

I really am not anybody's propaganda instrument.

I also take exception to the premises of this topic you started. There is something deeply disturbing about how you seem to not even be able to conceive of people disagreeing with the Israeli propaganda line while not at the same time being any of the invectives or insults you tried to assign at the outset.

Well, guess what, you did succeed in pissing me off with this topic. Congratulations. So I came here and called you out on your smugness.

How does it feel to have your motives questioned in what you feel is an unjustified manner?

I won't keep you guessing; I will let you know what my agenda is. Please try to read this as it is written, and try your hardest not to see some type of evil "Jew Hater" or "clueless trendie" behind them.

I want an end to the deaths, I want a lasting peace and I want both sides to get to that goal with honesty.

I want an end to terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hizbollah, and I want Israeli and Palestinian leaderships that focus on the goal of peace and co-existence rather than grabbing as much as they can for themselves, to agree on a deal of land division that ensures lasting peace in the region, without either side being held hostage, exposed to terror and/or controlled or intimidated by the other side.

I want to marginalize extremists of all kinds, be they right-wing or left-wing extremists, religious Jewish or Muslim fundamentalists and other similar types, and I want to try to bring the initiative and debate back into the realms of people who believe in conflict resolution with as little bloodshed as possible.

I know you take exception to this, but I also want an end to Israel's and the US's unsolicited meddling in the Middle East that creates more and more terrorists as time progresses, automagically.

I definitely don't believe the way to get to that goal is to shoot rockets at Israel, nor do I think it is ok to resign to accepting 100s of civilians killed under the constant, overly simplistic pretext of 'but they are evil terrorists or at any rate they happened to be standing next to evil terrorists'.

Those are my goals. They aren't very pragmatic, but at least they are honest and not motivated by my own economic interests or by tribal or religious conceptions.

Firstly, I am pretty sure that what has really pissed you off is that I pointed out that YOU are the one who is insincerely using the plight of those children to make your political point while calling me smug - what made you angry was not the topic. However, I have no doubt that you can twist or justify just about anything if you try hard enough.

As for the rest, I can not answer right now, but certainly will tomorrow.

I want an end to the deaths, I want a lasting peace and I want both sides to get to that goal with honesty.

I want an end to terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hizbollah, and I want Israeli and Palestinian leaderships that focus on the goal of peace and co-existence rather than grabbing as much as they can for themselves, to agree on a deal of land division that ensures lasting peace in the region, without either side being held hostage, exposed to terror and/or controlled or intimidated by the other side.

I want to marginalize extremists of all kinds, be they right-wing or left-wing extremists, religious Jewish or Muslim fundamentalists and other similar types, and I want to try to bring the initiative and debate back into the realms of people who believe in conflict resolution with as little bloodshed as possible.

I know you take exception to this, but I also want an end to Israel's and the US's unsolicited meddling in the Middle East that creates more and more terrorists as time progresses, automatically.

Ditto and perfectly well saided.

I pointed out the sad humanitarian suffering in such conflicts ; but he has just denied those people's right to be adequate enough to be considered human .

He was accusing and insulting me ( childish stuff ) , and even mocking my language skills. But; I think you had just beat the truth out of him........

I think; he will be suspecting that I had bought your post with Oil money !

So lets see if I have this right.

It's sad and inhumanitarian for one nation to defend itself against relentless attacks on it's citizens from suicide bombers and never-ending rocket attacks.

But it's perfectly OK for another "nation" to fire hundreds of rockets at civilian populations, and send dozens of it's citizens to blow up buses, restaurants and other places where innocent civilians are gathered ?

The world didn't seem to think it was OK for the Nazis to try and wipe out the Jews, but now it's OK for a different group to try and do so (after all, it is in Hamas's charter to "exterminate" the Jews, or words to that effect).

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but trying to reach a peace deal in the Middle East has been pretty high on the agendas of the last few (5 ? 6 ?) US Presidents, but the deals always seem to get derailed by militant and terrorist attacks from the non-Jewish side of the table.

Is that "meddling" in Middle Eastern affairs, to try and reach a peace deal between the sides, when it appears that only one side is willing to be peaceful ?

And what do you think the outcome would be if the US suddenly withdrew it's support of Israel ? Do you think that overnight the Arab world would suddenly put down their weapons and take up olive branches ?

Or would they mobilize their armies and try (yet again) to wipe out Israel (like they've tried in the past a couple of times) ?

Do you think the world would just sit back and say "Sorry Israel, we don't want to be seen "meddling" in Middle Eastern politics, so you are on your own" ? Do you honestly think the world would just turn a blind eye to the extermination of the Israelis (assuming that the combined forces of the ME armies were finally able to defeat the IDF).

Tell me please, just WHO has decided that anything done by Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa and the other terrorist groups is perfectly acceptable now, but defending oneself is "sad and inhumanitarian" ?

Since when did it become OK to deliberately target and slaughter innocent men, women and children with rockets and suicide bombs, but not OK to retaliate (while trying very hard to avoid inflicting casualties on non-combatants) ?

Since when did it become OK to deliberately positions weapons and munitions in densely populated areas, knowing that if attacked there will be innocent casualties ?

All the recent criticisms of Israel's actions are absolutely PATHETIC when you don't hear a SINGLE criticism of the actions of the other side.

I'm not a fan of Israel, nor do I particularly care about the Jewish people. Don't love them, don't hate them. I don't like the way some of them seem bent on trying to recreate history to fit their own agendas (but that's not limited to the Jews). I don't believe any group of people on this planet are the "favoured" children of (insert favourite diety here).

What probably irritates me more than anything else about this and similar conflicts, is that at their root, they are about something I don't believe exists at all. They are all fighting over their fanatical belief in a fictional being, and to make matters worse, both sides (supposedly) believe in the same being !

And to think that all this bloodshed and misery could be halted in an instant, if that very same being chose to make itself known in such a way that was undeniable to both sides. But divine intervention seems to be rarer than dinosaurs these days. Odd how it used to be a regular occurrence (allegedly), then just seemed to stop one day. Hmmmmmm.

Meanwhile, people continue to show their inhumanity towards each other perhaps more so than at any other time in history.

Definitely sad.

So lets see if I have this right.

It's sad and inhumanitarian for one nation to defend itself against relentless attacks on it's citizens from suicide bombers and never-ending rocket attacks.

But it's perfectly OK for another "nation" to fire hundreds of rockets at civilian populations, and send dozens of it's citizens to blow up buses, restaurants and other places where innocent civilians are gathered ?

The world didn't seem to think it was OK for the Nazis to try and wipe out the Jews, but now it's OK for a different group to try and do so (after all, it is in Hamas's charter to "exterminate" the Jews, or words to that effect).

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but trying to reach a peace deal in the Middle East has been pretty high on the agendas of the last few (5 ? 6 ?) US Presidents, but the deals always seem to get derailed by militant and terrorist attacks from the non-Jewish side of the table.

Is that "meddling" in Middle Eastern affairs, to try and reach a peace deal between the sides, when it appears that only one side is willing to be peaceful ?

And what do you think the outcome would be if the US suddenly withdrew it's support of Israel ? Do you think that overnight the Arab world would suddenly put down their weapons and take up olive branches ?

Or would they mobilize their armies and try (yet again) to wipe out Israel (like they've tried in the past a couple of times) ?

Do you think the world would just sit back and say "Sorry Israel, we don't want to be seen "meddling" in Middle Eastern politics, so you are on your own" ? Do you honestly think the world would just turn a blind eye to the extermination of the Israelis (assuming that the combined forces of the ME armies were finally able to defeat the IDF).

Tell me please, just WHO has decided that anything done by Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa and the other terrorist groups is perfectly acceptable now, but defending oneself is "sad and inhumanitarian" ?

Since when did it become OK to deliberately target and slaughter innocent men, women and children with rockets and suicide bombs, but not OK to retaliate (while trying very hard to avoid inflicting casualties on non-combatants) ?

Since when did it become OK to deliberately positions weapons and munitions in densely populated areas, knowing that if attacked there will be innocent casualties ?

All the recent criticisms of Israel's actions are absolutely PATHETIC when you don't hear a SINGLE criticism of the actions of the other side.

I'm not a fan of Israel, nor do I particularly care about the Jewish people. Don't love them, don't hate them. I don't like the way some of them seem bent on trying to recreate history to fit their own agendas (but that's not limited to the Jews). I don't believe any group of people on this planet are the "favoured" children of (insert favourite diety here).

What probably irritates me more than anything else about this and similar conflicts, is that at their root, they are about something I don't believe exists at all. They are all fighting over their fanatical belief in a fictional being, and to make matters worse, both sides (supposedly) believe in the same being !

And to think that all this bloodshed and misery could be halted in an instant, if that very same being chose to make itself known in such a way that was undeniable to both sides. But divine intervention seems to be rarer than dinosaurs these days. Odd how it used to be a regular occurrence (allegedly), then just seemed to stop one day. Hmmmmmm.

Meanwhile, people continue to show their inhumanity towards each other perhaps more so than at any other time in history.

Definitely sad.

I may be missing something here, but I have not seen any support of Hamas in this thread. No one is writing that it is OK for Hamas to rocket Israel.  Some of the anti-Israeli posters here specifically have denounced Hamas.

perfectly well saided.

I think; he will be suspecting that I had bought your post with Oil money !

On the contrary, I have no doubt that you are two of a kind.

I may be missing something here, but I have not seen any support of Hamas in this thread. No one is writing that it is OK for Hamas to rocket Israel.  Some of the anti-Israeli posters here specifically have denounced Hamas.

No one is admitting that they support Hamas, but they are justifying everything that Hamas has done and blaming the war on Israel despite the rocketing of Israeli civilians. It is kind of like when Arafat used to recognize Israel's right to exist in English and then a week later call for Israel's destruction in Arabic. Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

perfectly well saided.

Ulysses,

We have tended to agree more often than not on threads where we both have posted and I respect your opinions. And far be it from me to be the forum police, but I don't think it is copasetic to laugh at Zaza's lack of English perfection. This is not her native language, and I for one, certainly could not post effectively in any other language than my native one.

I may be missing something here, but I have not seen any support of Hamas in this thread. No one is writing that it is OK for Hamas to rocket Israel.  Some of the anti-Israeli posters here specifically have denounced Hamas.

No one is admitting that they support Hamas, but they are justifying everything that Hamas has done and blaming the war on Israel despite the rocketing of Israeli civilians. It is kind of like when Arafat used to recognize Israel's right to exist in English and then a week later call for Israel's destruction in Arabic. Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Once again, I must be missing something. I have seen no one justifying what Hamas has done. But I have read outright denouncements of Hamas and what they do.

Most of the anti-Israeli posters are denoucing what they view as Israel's over-reaction and how they are pursuing the situation.

You are probably right about zaza, but I don't think that language is the real problem.

As far as no one justifing what Hamas has done, yes I think that you are missing something if you can not see that blaming everything on Israel and hardly mentioning Hamas (other than a token denunciation) is pretty much the same thing. You do realize that this thread is all about people who are not honest about their real agendas?

You are probably right, but I don't think that language is the real problem.

I know you disagree with her views, and I have no problem with that. Then again, who really cares too much with what I do and do not have a problem?  

You are probably right about zaza, but I don't think that language is the real problem.

As far as no one justifing what Hamas has done, yes I think that you are missing something if you can not see that blaming everything on Israel and hardly mentioning Hamas (other than a token denunciation) is pretty much the same thing. You do realize that this thread is all about people who are not honest about their real agendas?

Well, I must be rather obtuse here, because I just don't see it. I see anti-Israeli sentiment to varying degrees, but I really don't see anyone justifying Hamas.

As I have posted here and in other threads, I object to the power that Israel has in the US (as I would object to the power any foreign nation would have in the US), and I think that Israel has over-reacted in this situation and is playing into Hamas' hands in some cases (as a military man who has fought in the Middle East, I would have done things differently) I never-the-less agree with Israel's right to defend itself, and if I was put into the situtation to oppose Hamas on the field of battle, I would do so.

Sorry, but you are way off. I think that the deaths of any children are sad, but these seem to have been unavoidable because of the situation in Gaza. What is leading you to suggest that I am pleased about their deaths is to justify your own politics.

What lead me to that conclusion was this post:

It does when "the others" purposely target your civilians to blow up with bombs and rockets and have been warned to stop it over and over again.

The Palestinians freely elected Hamas to lead them and they led them right into a sh*tstorm and did not accomplish anything other than completely destroying Gaza.

It just shows; Be careful who you vote for!

You first describe a terrible situation and end it with a smug comment and a roll-eye smilie. I did and still do find that very distasteful and deeply disturbing.

Further, I don't think you know much about my politics; you are trying to assign an agenda to me that I never expressed.

I really am not anybody's propaganda instrument.

I also take exception to the premises of this topic you started. There is something deeply disturbing about how you seem to not even be able to conceive of people disagreeing with the Israeli propaganda line while not at the same time being any of the invectives or insults you tried to assign at the outset.

Well, guess what, you did succeed in pissing me off with this topic. Congratulations. So I came here and called you out on your smugness.

How does it feel to have your motives questioned in what you feel is an unjustified manner?

I won't keep you guessing; I will let you know what my agenda is. Please try to read this as it is written, and try your hardest not to see some type of evil "Jew Hater" or "clueless trendie" behind them.

I want an end to the deaths, I want a lasting peace and I want both sides to get to that goal with honesty.

I want an end to terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hizbollah, and I want Israeli and Palestinian leaderships that focus on the goal of peace and co-existence rather than grabbing as much as they can for themselves, to agree on a deal of land division that ensures lasting peace in the region, without either side being held hostage, exposed to terror and/or controlled or intimidated by the other side.

I want to marginalize extremists of all kinds, be they right-wing or left-wing extremists, religious Jewish or Muslim fundamentalists and other similar types, and I want to try to bring the initiative and debate back into the realms of people who believe in conflict resolution with as little bloodshed as possible.

I know you take exception to this, but I also want an end to Israel's and the US's unsolicited meddling in the Middle East that creates more and more terrorists as time progresses, automagically.

I definitely don't believe the way to get to that goal is to shoot rockets at Israel, nor do I think it is ok to resign to accepting 100s of civilians killed under the constant, overly simplistic pretext of 'but they are evil terrorists or at any rate they happened to be standing next to evil terrorists'.

Those are my goals. They aren't very pragmatic, but at least they are honest and not motivated by my own economic interests or by tribal or religious conceptions.

I find it disturbing that you can not admit that many people who are against Israel are prejudiced against Jews in general and could care less about their policies towards Palestinians. They spout all kinds of politically correct nonsense, because they have discovered that they can hate Jews and be accepted for it. All they have to do is call them Israelis instead of Jews.

I'm sorry that you are so sensitive that refering to an unfortunate situation that we've been discussing for weeks still bothers you so badly. Most men that I have met don't get upset so easily. The truth is that I was using that smiley to express sarcasm towards another nonsense post from zaza that I was responding to, rather than expressing my pleasure at Palestinian deaths.

I have been reading your posts for years and it is pretty darn obvious where you are coming from. If it wasn't, your post above would do a pretty job of showing right where you stand: "I want peace and love for both sides, because I'm open minded man, and everything is groovy, but the whole Middle East situation is really all America and Israel's fault. Now where would I the idea that you are not impartial?

As far as your wonderful wishes for the Mid East go, congratulations. Until you get to the part where you blame everything on the U.S. and Israel, you pretty much agree with almost every one in the world including most Israelis and myself.

The only folks who don't agree with you are the same ones who want to push the Jews into the sea. However, don't worry, they certainly would like the end part where you put all the blame on the imperialist pigs who are "meddling" with everything. You sound a whole lot like your thinking buddy zaza and that isn't meant as a compliment.

I find it disturbing that you can not admit that many people who are against Israel are prejudiced against Jews in general and could care less about their policies towards Palestinians.

In my experience, not the majority. Many people, possibly. A few, definitely.

I speak for myself and try my best to avoid ascribing opinions to others they have not expressed themselves, and I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially people whose viewpoint appears to be honest and does not happen to be completely biased in one direction.

There is anti-semitism against both Jews and Arabs in Europe, it would be silly to pretend otherwise, and most people don't - just in your imagination. When you try to put nigh everyone who does not agree with Israel's policies in the same camp as the Nazis and the fundamentalists you are making things way too simple for yourself, or try the old 'repeat the lie until it sticks' trick.

All I can really say is that it is not true in my case. I do care about the conflict because it is causing massive suffering and has repercussions far beyond the area it takes place on.

They spout all kinds of politically correct nonsense, because they have discovered that they can hate Jews and be accepted for it. All they have to do is call them Israelis instead of Jews.

Now you've gone and done it again, you start by setting up a false premise and then you go on and tar everyone who disagrees with you with the same brush. I am not prejudiced against Jews as a group, and not at Israelis as a group either. I do confess I have a hard time getting on with Israeli hardliners. But that is no different than their mates in Sweden or elsewhere, some of whom have no blood connection to Jews, but agree with Zionist hardliners on ideological grounds.

You might be interested in googling the thoughts of Bernt Hermele, a man of Jewish descent whose mother was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

I'm sorry that you are so sensitive that refering to an unfortunate situation that we've been discussing for weeks still bothers you so badly. Most men that I have met don't get upset so easily.

Ah, now you are first downplaying your post, and then implying I am a sissy to take offense - if you can't get away with the Jew Hater bit then why not try to find another label to see if THAT sticks instead.

Well, I like to think empathy is a human trait that would help end conflicts much more effectively than rockets. So sorry if it is 'PC crap' to you - it is still my honest opinion.

The truth is that I was using that smiley to express sarcasm towards another nonsense post from zaza that I was responding to, rather than expressing my pleasure at Palestinian deaths.

How come it took you four posts full of (veiled) insults to be able to finally say that? Fair enough if you're honest. Can you still not see how smug your post looks?

I have been reading your posts for years and it is pretty darn obvious where you are coming from. If it wasn't, your post above would do a pretty job of showing right where you stand: "I want peace and love for both sides, because I'm open minded man, and everything is groovy, but the whole Middle East situation is really all America and Israel's fault. Now where would I the idea that you are not impartial?

Ah, put me in the hippie camp now. Impartial? No, I don't think I am impartial. I express my honest opinion based on my experiences and what I gather from second hand sources, without having the type of hidden agenda you like to imply.

Also, let me bounce the last one back at you. If you are completely honest, do you really think the level of terrorist activity existing today would exist if it wasn't for the meddling and warfare in the Middle East? The methods of fighting Al Queada's core organisation, has given rise to a more loosely knitted but no less determined network of terrorist cells all over the world. If that's success, my yorkshire terrier is a woolly mammooth.

As far as your wonderful wishes for the Mid East go, congratulations. Until you get to the part where you blame everything on the U.S. and Israel, you pretty much agree with almost every one in the world including most Israelis and myself.

That is why the blame game is so useless. It only serves to make people lose sight of the common goal.

There is a start to every conflict, and of course it is not as simple as everything bad originating from Israel and the US. The atrocities committed by terrorists are no less scary, and many Arab nations have been dishonest in their dealings as well.

It remains that the US and Israel have the initiative and the greatest chance of really turning the situation around to something all parties can accept, grudgingly or not. I think in most cases, they are doing just the reverse.

The only folks who don't agree with you are the same ones who want to push the Jews into the sea. However, don't worry, they certainly would like the end part where you put all the blame on the imperialist pigs who are "meddling" with everything.

Do I care that some of my thoughts of the background to the conflict are shared or appreciated by Hamas? Not really. It does not mean I support them, it does not make me the same as them, any more than it makes you a murderer for being smug about Palestinians dying 'because they were stupid'.

You sound a whole lot like your thinking buddy zaza and that isn't meant as a compliment.

And yet, I will take it as one. Thank you, George.

You sound a whole lot like your thinking buddy zaza and that isn't meant as a compliment.

And yet, I will take it as one. Thank you, George.

You are "happy" to be compared to a woman who has done nothing but blame the whole conflict on Israel and has not even tried to see any other side to it at all. That is pretty much what I thought.

Why didn't you just say so?

You sound a whole lot like your thinking buddy zaza and that isn't meant as a compliment.

And yet, I will take it as one. Thank you, George.

You are "happy" to be compared to a woman who has done nothing but blame the whole conflict on Israel and has not even tried to see any other side to it at all. That is pretty much what I thought.

Why didn't you just say so?

and using "compared to a woman" as an insult ;eh?

I'm trying not to get thrown off, but being a woman is not an insult at all as far as I am concerned.

I am delighted to be showered by UG ,with more and more buddies on each day.

An "unthinking woman" would be an insult, but I might get in trouble for saying that.

An "unthinking woman" would be an insult, but I might get in trouble for saying that.

You have said worse than that; but I guess I care less for your words anymore, since your real mentality and personality has been exposed.

An "unthinking woman" would be an insult, but I might get in trouble for saying that.

Yes you would. This is Bedlam where moderation is very light only because civility reigns. Bear that in mind.

I got this emailed to me and I suppose it could go in either of the top 2 threads in 'outside the box'.

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000

ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:

1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:

1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat

1994 - Yaser Arafat:

1990 - Elias James Corey

1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics: (zero)

Physics: (zero)

Medicine:

1960 - Peter Brian Medawar

1998 - Ferid Mourad

TOTAL: 7 SEVEN

______________________________________________________________________________

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 FOURTEEN MILLION

Or about 0.02% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:

1910 - Paul Heyse

1927 - Henri Bergson

1958 - Boris Pasternak

1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon

1966 - Nelly Sachs

1976 - Saul Bellow

1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer

1981 - Elias Canetti

1987 - Joseph Brodsky

1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:

1911 - Alfred Fried

1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser

1968 - Rene Cassin

1973 - Henry Kissinger

1978 - Menachem Begin

1986 - Elie Wiesel

1! 994 - Shimon Peres

1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer

1906 - Henri Moissan

1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson

1908 - Gabriel Lippmann

1910 - Otto Wallach

1915 - Richard Willstaetter

1918 - Fritz Haber

1921 - Albert Einstein

1922 - Niels Bohr

1925 - James Franck

1925 - Gustav Hertz

1943 - Gustav Stern

1943 - George Charles de Hevesy

1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi

1952 - Felix Bloch

1954 - Max Born

1958 - Igor Tamm

1959 - Emilio Segre

1960 - Donald A. Glaser

1961 - Robert Hofstadter

1961 - Melvin Calvin

1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau

1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz

1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman

1965 - Julian Schwinger

1969 - Murray Gell-Mann

1971 - Dennis Gabor

1972 - William Howard Stein

1973 - Brian David Josephson

1975 - Benjamin Mottleson

1976 - Bu! rton Richter

1977 - Ilya Prigogine

1978 - Arno Allan Penzias

1978 - Peter L Kapitza

1979 - Stephen Weinberg

1979 - Sheldon Glashow

1979 - Herbert Charle S Brown

1980 - Paul Berg

1980 - Walter Gilbert

1981 - Roald Hoffmann

1982 - Aaron Klug

1985 - Albert A. Hauptman

1985 - Jerome Karle

1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach

1988 - Robert Huber

1988 - Leon Lederman

1988 - Melvin Schwartz

1988 - Jack Steinberger

1989 - Sidney Altman

1990 - Jerome Friedman

1992 - Rudolph Marcus

1995 - Martin Perl

2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson

1971 - Simon Kuznets

1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow

1975 - Leonid Kantorovich

1976 - Milton Friedman

1978 - Herbert A. Simon

1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein

1985 - Franco Modigliani

1987 - Robert M. Solow

1990 - Harry Markowitz

1990 - Merton Miller

1992 - Gary Becker

1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:

1908 ! - Eli e Metchnikoff

1908 - Paul Erlich

1914 - Robert Barany

1922 - Otto Meyerhof

1930 - Karl Landsteiner

1931 - Otto Warburg

1936 - Otto Loewi

1944 - Joseph Erlanger

1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser

1945 - Ernst Boris Chain

1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller

1950 - Tadeus Reichstein

1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman

1953 - Hans Krebs

1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann

1958 - Joshua Lederberg

1959 - Arthur Kornberg

1964 - Konrad Bloch

1965 - Francois Jacob

1965 - Andre Lwoff

1967 - George Wald

1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg

1969 - Salvador Luria

1970 - Julius Axelrod

1970 - Sir Bernard Katz

1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman

1975 - Howard Martin Temin

1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg

1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow

1978 - Daniel Nathans

1980 - Baruj Benacerraf

1984 - Cesar Milstein

1985 - Michael Stuart Brown

1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein

1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]

1988 - Gertrude Elion

198! 9 - H arold Varmus

1991 - Erwin Neher

1991 - Bert Sakmann

1993 - Richard J. Roberts

1993 - Phillip Sharp

1994 - Alfred Gilman

1995 - Edward B. Lewis

TOTAL: ONE HUNDRED & TWENTY NINE !

The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims!

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is not a single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is not a single Jew that protests by killing people.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it all:

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel' -Benjamin Netanyahu

What do you think?

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel' -Benjamin Netanyahu

What do you think?

This is exactly what all of Israel's enemies want us to forget.

Also, let me bounce the last one back at you. If you are completely honest, do you really think the level of terrorist activity existing today would exist if it wasn't for the meddling and warfare in the Middle East? The methods of fighting Al Queada's core organisation, has given rise to a more loosely knitted but no less determined network of terrorist cells all over the world. If that's success, my yorkshire terrier is a woolly mammooth.

I don't know about UG, but I do believe that the terrorist activity would be as great, or greater than it is now, if it weren't for the "meddling".

Hmmm, let us recall Egypt closing down the Suez (and getting their butts kicked by the UK). The wars between India/Pakistan. The war between Iran/Iraq. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (which lead to Gulf War 1 of course). The ongoing wars in Africa (which, at the heart of some of those conflicts, is that same old problem of religion. Others are tribal in nature).

Many of the Arab nations have quelled internal conflicts with a (rarely publicised) brutality that would make the situation in Gaza look like birthday party by comparison.

Had the Arab world been able to wipe out Israel during any of the (3 ?) wars they fought, I've no doubt that their own internal dissensions would be causing as much, or more terrorism than is now seen.

There may be a difference in the targets and rhetoric, but the actions would be similar. Any "Western" power seen to be siding with one side or another, would become a target of the other side.

The Sunnis, Shi-ites, Wahabis and others have proven that for the most part, they dislike each other almost as much as they hate the Jews. In fact, I'd say that their overwhelming hatred of the Jews is the one thing that has kept them from warring upon each other more so than they have already.

Have the events in the ME lead to a rise in various terrorist cells around the world ? Undoubtedly, but, I suspect it would have happened any ways, just with a different focus as I mentioned above. Look at the increase in piracy off the Somali coast. They've been successful, and their success has emboldened even more acts of piracy.

It is far easier in this day and age of global travel and communications to organize networks around the world, and the news of certain events gets spread at the speed of light (figuratively speaking of course).

50-60 years ago, news of an event like 9/11 would have taken days, even weeks, to be spread around the globe. I remember watching the news on TV and the internet when the 2nd jet hit. Within minutes, the news was around the world.

I would like to point out, that it's not just a Middle East thing as well. Many of the conflicts going on globally have a similar root cause, that has nothing to do with the Jews or Israel. I have no doubt that those conflicts would still be going on with or without the events in the ME. Again, one could suppose that other groups, seeing how their side is being viewed on the international stage, are themselves emboldened to even more violent acts. (For example, how many people were beheaded in Southern Thailand, before the video-taped beheadings in the ME were broadcast ?)

When these other groups see that there has been very little (some might same strangely little) criticism of Hamas's barrage of rockets into Israel in the weeks preceding this latest incident, they may take that as approval for those actions. The fact that the Palestinians are in such poor shape despite of all the Aid $$ that have been sent may send the message to other groups that it's OK to use international aid to buy weapons instead of food. That the people themselves aren't criticising these actions also sends the message that these acts are permissible.

And I don't see how the warfare in the Middle East could have been avoided. After what happened during WWII, the sympathies of the world (at least some of the more powerful countries) were with the Jews. Then the migration of huge numbers of Jews to what would soon be Israel happened. Who was going to stop them ? The fighting there had been going on long before WWII, just on a lesser scale (and less publicised due to lack of the global travel and communications I mentioned previously).

How could the warfare have been prevented ? Round up all the Jews and put them in different concentration camps to prevent them moving to Israel ? Perhaps if the UN had of drawn the lines on the map differently when they "created" Israel" ? Nah, that wouldn't have changed anything. What if the Arab armies hadn't attacked the newly founded Israeli nation ?

Hmmm, the Palestinians were offered full citizenship in the new Israel, but turned it down. Many fled when the Arab armies attacked as they didn't want to mistakenly get slaughtered along with the Jews (whom they thought would be annihilated). When that didn't happen, they suddenly found themselves as outcasts.

Where would they be now had they stayed, and the Arab armies hadn't attacked ?

What would have happened if the Jews had been on the losing end, and millions of refugees fled into neighbouring countries ? Kind of hard to imagine that, as all the neighbouring countries wanted to slaughter them. I highly doubt they'd still be sitting in refugee camps, and firing rocket barrages into "Palestine" (only because they'd all have been wiped out if the situation had been reversed).

(If anyone is still awake, there's popcorn and soda pop in the lobby. Please keep your ticket stub for re-entry into this discussion).

We could spend years debating the "what if's" and get nowhere. It wouldn't solve any thing any ways. What's done is done. What needs to be figured out now, is how do we resolve the situation at hand ? Not the recent Gaza incident, but the larger problem.

An island of people that won't go down quietly, in the midst of a sea of people that want nothing more than to wipe them out (and would if they possessed the means to do so).

(wow. I hadn't expected to type that much !)

Very interesting it was too kerry...

I don't know about UG, but I do believe that the terrorist activity would be as great, or greater than it is now, if it weren't for the "meddling".

In a way, I agree with you. Without Western "meddling," there would still be killing in the MIddle East, but I believe at a much smaller scale and in a more constrained area.

If the US had not led the liberation of Kuwait, there is little doubt that 9-11 would not have happened, and the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would not be underway. THere would have bene no train bombings in Spain and no bombings in London.

I am not say that the world should have stood by and let Saddam take over Kuwait. I do think that the world has a responsibilty to intervene in the name of justice and to stop genocide. Not going into Rwanda and Burundi were travesties, in my opinion, and Darfur is equally troubling. But that does not ignore the fact that if the US and its Western allies were not involved in the Middle East, then there would not have been the same attacks against Western interests as have actually occured.

The Somali pirates are not terrorists, althought they may take a page from the same book as the Filipino  Abu Sayyaf in calling their criminal for-profit activities part of the global Islamic fight.  The pirates do not care for ideology except for the ideology of money.

(wow. I hadn't expected to type that much !)

I'm glad you did. It was a very good post, definitely worthy of a well thought out response. No second guessing of other people's opinions or attempts to ascribe negative epithets or views to them.

An adult post, and well-reasoned. Thank you. I will definitely get back to answer you later.