What Is Wrong With This Tyre?

[JetsetBkk]

Here is the front tyre on my pick-up:

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with it?

[stingray]

Chinese rubber! Too old.

[jcon]

looks like the rubber is hard and dry... aka old... aka road hazard... aka agree with stingray.

[ShugNorris]

Nothing is wrong with it other than the fact it's not inflated to Thailand standards?!

or.. the Google ad that conveniently placed itself on top of the picture!

- Shug

[dee123]

is the picture showing it in reverse?......ie like mirror!

[dee123]

or is this "trick" question a "POMMIE TRAP"?????

[scottyd]

The tyre is starting to split as shown.

[JetsetBkk]

Thanks for all the replies! I agree the tyres are old - just over 5 years old - and they've done 78,000 kilometres.

I just had a look at the area marked by scottyd, but can't see anything coming apart. The apparent "dent" in the rubber is exaggerated by the angle of the sun casting a big shadow.

I keep all the tyres inflated to 30 PSI, which is probably why the tread is evenly worn right across the width of the tyre, and there is still about 2 mm left.

Sorry, ShugNorris, I don't see any Google ads and its's not a trick photo dee123

The reason I posted this was because I went to Toyota today and asked them to investigate a slight vibration that I could feel in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear when I accelerate gently through 1500 to 2000 RPM. It's only a very slight vibration, hardly noticeable, but I know it didn't used to be there a couple of months ago and if it's an indication of something starting to go wrong I wanted it fixed before it did any more damage.

A rather large guy took it for a test drive with me in the passenger seat, and although I could feel the vibration sometimes, it was pretty clear that he didn't. His English was non-existent so it wasn't easy (impossible) to convey what I wanted to him.

When we got back to the dealership, the "interpreter" girl could only tell me that the "wheel not work" and dropped the bombshell that they recommended replacing all four tyres. I couldn't believe that was the reason for the vibration so asked if they could balance the wheels. I put my finger on one of the weights and said "balance?" and they said they would.

After getting it back and paying 330 baht I drove it home. The vibration was still there. I checked all the weights on the wheels - none had been removed or moved and no new ones added, so I presume there was nothing wrong with the balance.

My own investigations revealed:

If I drop into neutral while the vibration is occurring so that the engine and gearbox idle, the vibration stops. This indicates to me that it is not a wheel bearing or tyre problem.

If I ease back on the accelerator at 2000 RPM and use the engine as a gentle break, the vibration also occurs sometimes.

I can't remember what happens if I just rev the engine in neutral at 1500 RPM - I'll do that tomorrow.

At high speed (for me, that's 80-90 KPH), there's no vibration.

So, overall I'm wondering if it could be prop-shaft or clutch related.

Anyone any ideas on what I could try? (Apart from replacing all four tyres )

[scottyd]

Drive the car, see if you can find a certain speed/revs where this vibration occurs, and continues to occur when driving at set speed/revs. It could be a number of things, it could be your driveshafts/cv joints, it could also be something stupid like exhaust rattling on something, which is caused by the vibrations and resonance at certain speeds/revs. Also, check your headlining, my cars headlining came a littlebit loose and at certain revs vibrations through the car would cause the headlining to vibrate against the metal roof creating alot of noise, no more nails fixed that haha.

Edited February 19, 2009 by scottyd

[jcon]

My own investigations revealed:

If I drop into neutral while the vibration is occurring so that the engine and gearbox idle, the vibration stops. This indicates to me that it is not a wheel bearing or tyre problem.

Engine mounts? Drive shafts?

[cobra]

Look for play in your drive shaft U-joints, you've obviously figured out it's drive train related,

Good luck,

[stingray]

Look for play in your drive shaft U-joints, you've obviously figured out it's drive train related,

Good luck,

Told you yesterday, bad and old quality (maybe made in china (joke). The tire start splitting from the metal part inside. If they come only a little bit loose, it's gona start vibration, exactly like no balance. Put the spare tyre instead of that one and try if there is any difference.

Engine mounts have nothing to do with vibration on speed. They vibrate only when the car is standing still, for example on a redlight, during the engine is ideling. If the car is automatic, than the vibration will be more bad, specially if you let the gear the "D" Drive, during idlespeed and turn the AC on. So your problem are NOT the engine mounts.

Driveshafts, common problem with front wheel drive cars, not RWD. Would only vibrate during acceleration, when your use power and "floor" your pedal. drive shaft would create knocking soud, especially when you turning hard, like U- turns.

But this is NOT the problem i guess.

Tires getting old sometime they getting "stairs", you can feel when you touch them. So there is a noice start coming up like a wheel bearring.

I recommend, that you replace the tire anyway, because safety reasons. Noise and vibration should be gone.

Let us know.

[Gary A]

Hard rubber tires are dangerous, age hardened hard rubber tires are even more dangerous. These tires have very little traction on wet roads. I'd replace them as soon as possible. I'm of the opinion that although these tires last forever, the loss of traction especially on wet roads is no way worth taking the chance.

[JetsetBkk]

Here's another picture of the tyre after washing it:

It's not splitting. There is a radial seam - indicated by the arrow - that may give that impression, but I've checked it and it's just the way it was manufactured.

Don't forget, when I slip into neutral at the "vibration speed", the vibration stops. So it's not tyre or wheel bearing related. And Toyota said they'd checked the wheel balance, so I think we can discount the tyres from the cause of the vibration.

I may buy a new set after the vibration cause has been found as I agree that traction in the wet is very poor.

I'm thinking the same as cobra - it's drive train related.

I did think about the engine mounts, jcon, and thought that's what the Toyota guy meant when he said "check the rubber" but he was talking about the tyres.

Thanks again for your input stingray and I understand what you say about the engine mounts - they are there more for reducing vibration at tick-over speed rather than high engine revs.

...Tires getting old sometime they getting "stairs", you can feel when you touch them. So there is a noice start coming up like a wheel bearring...

Can you explain what you mean by "stairs"? Do you mean "flat spots"? But don't forget, when free-wheeling, the vibration stops.

I'm going to start looking up Thai words for common car parts and write them down. I'll go to another Toyota dealership and explain what I want checking.

I just remembered - the friendly car-wash guy I use has a high ramp where I could walk under the pick-up and do some checking. I'll ask him if I can do that.

I'll let you know what happens.

[ballbreaker]

I'm going to start looking up Thai words for common car parts and write them down. I'll go to another Toyota dealership and explain what I want checking.

Here is link for list of car parts someone has made up which might save some time. If you add anything please re-post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Spark-Plugs-...heryl&st=25

Edited February 20, 2009 by ballbreaker

[stingray]

sometime is hard to make the exact diagnostic, when no see the problem. Second pictures look like your tire have no stairs. Stairs mean, when the tire get raft at the shoulders. I should make a drawing, instead to try to explain. You feel it when you touch it. But your tire looke not like what i mean. Maybe we can get more closer. Do you drive at a constant speed when you put the Neutral gear in, just let rolling the car? Is the vibration gone? or comes the vibration when you accellerate or deacellerate (without using the brakes)? Does the shaking comes from the front or the rear end?

[tb86]

check your u-joints/drivelines , grab your drive shft while the car is in park and see if it moves at all if it does get new u joints, u joint pin bearings some times become fused together or caps get deformed from lack of grease. I really doubt its the tires, you have plenty of tread left on em and if it was flat spots form over night parking the heat from driving a few km will warm them enough to go away. If the vibs go away when your in neutral, cheapest first round test would be to have the cv joints on each end of your drive shafts front and rear replaced.. While your shafts are off have them checked to see if they are bent or twisted front and rear, remember if it is a 4wd the front and rear still are turning as you move even if you arent in 4wd. In the case that it is 4wd and the drivelines arent the problem, have a mechanic chect the transfer case output shafts and drive flanges for any warping or sheared bolts, as well as the transfer case mount bushings and engine mount bushings hot temps tend to dry out the cheap rubber mount bushings that toyotas come with heat and humidity will cause them to expand and contract causing them to crack, if thats the problem replace them with polyurethane bushings......... I spent a few years under baja trucks so im painfuly well informed with vibration problems..let me know if you need any more help

[torrenova]

I had some vibration from the front wheels of my pick up and after fannying around all over the place it was resolved by having the wheels rebalanced (changed tyres - up to me) and had the tracking done. Problem solved. Tracking had been out and tyres had stairs as pointed out. Only at 20k but chucked them anyway.

[mdechgan]

My car had vibration problems ever since I changed the front tires to goodyear wrangler.

The steering wheel would shake at 80km but not much before or after. I balanced the tires three times since and guess what? The balance was off every time it was balanced even though at the time the balance was ok when I left the tire shop. But after a month it would go out of balance again. In the end the tire shop just told us the tire wasn't good quality and the tire would wear out unevenly. Its like the wire isn't exactly round and it would wear unevenly. They wouldn't replace the tires but offered us free wheel balancing for the entire life of the tire like 2 years.

[JetsetBkk]

I'm going to start looking up Thai words for common car parts and write them down. I'll go to another Toyota dealership and explain what I want checking.

Here is link for list of car parts someone has made up which might save some time. If you add anything please re-post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Spark-Plugs-...heryl&st=25

Great link - thanks!

[JetsetBkk]

sometime is hard to make the exact diagnostic, when no see the problem. Second pictures look like your tire have no stairs. Stairs mean, when the tire get raft at the shoulders. I should make a drawing, instead to try to explain. You feel it when you touch it. But your tire looke not like what i mean. Maybe we can get more closer. Do you drive at a constant speed when you put the Neutral gear in, just let rolling the car? Is the vibration gone? or comes the vibration when you accellerate or deacellerate (without using the brakes)? Does the shaking comes from the front or the rear end?

When in neutral, the pick-up slows down and the vibration isn't there. It's only there when I accelerate through 1500 to 2000 RPM or decelerate through 2000 through 1500 RPM by using the engine as a brake by not touching the accelerator while in gear. I should emphasize that this vibration is very slight, but I know it didn't used to be there a few months ago.

Vibration from front or rear? Can't really tell - it just a high frequency vibration felt at the steering wheel.

[Farma]

My car had vibration problems ever since I changed the front tires to goodyear wrangler.

The steering wheel would shake at 80km but not much before or after. I balanced the tires three times since and guess what? The balance was off every time it was balanced even though at the time the balance was ok when I left the tire shop. But after a month it would go out of balance again. In the end the tire shop just told us the tire wasn't good quality and the tire would wear out unevenly. Its like the wire isn't exactly round and it would wear unevenly. They wouldn't replace the tires but offered us free wheel balancing for the entire life of the tire like 2 years.

Many years ago I had a similar problem. After numerous balances, on car, static and dynamic the tyre place agreed to replace the tyres.

On removing the tyres from the rims the cause of the problem soon became apparent. The lad who originally fitted the tyres had been a bit too liberal when applying the soapy water.

Little puddles were in the tyre causing the never ending balancing problem. Every time the wheels spun up the puddles would settle in a different position causing the wheels to go out of balance.

[JetsetBkk]

check your u-joints/drivelines , grab your drive shft while the car is in park and see if it moves at all if it does get new u joints, u joint pin bearings some times become fused together or caps get deformed from lack of grease. I really doubt its the tires, you have plenty of tread left on em and if it was flat spots form over night parking the heat from driving a few km will warm them enough to go away. If the vibs go away when your in neutral, cheapest first round test would be to have the cv joints on each end of your drive shafts front and rear replaced.. While your shafts are off have them checked to see if they are bent or twisted front and rear, remember if it is a 4wd the front and rear still are turning as you move even if you arent in 4wd. In the case that it is 4wd and the drivelines arent the problem, have a mechanic chect the transfer case output shafts and drive flanges for any warping or sheared bolts, as well as the transfer case mount bushings and engine mount bushings hot temps tend to dry out the cheap rubber mount bushings that toyotas come with heat and humidity will cause them to expand and contract causing them to crack, if thats the problem replace them with polyurethane bushings......... I spent a few years under baja trucks so im painfuly well informed with vibration problems..let me know if you need any more help

Thank you very much for your detailed post. My pick-up is a 2 WD, so I guess the latter half of your post doesn't apply.

The stuff you wrote about the cv joints is very apt. I was thinking of just going to a dealer and telling them to replace them, as they can't be that expensive.

Yesterday I went to my local friendly "car-wash/change engine oil" type garage and asked if I could check underneath. We parked it over a pit and both went down and started tugging at both halves of the prop-shaft.

There's a central joint where both halves of the prop shaft meet and there was definitely some play. I could move it about 1 cm (1/2 cm up and 1/2 cm down). The garage guy reckoned it was just "nit-noy" and I don't know how significant it is. Everything else seemed pretty solid. I think I need to find a Toyota dealer with a rolling road equipment and with some engineers who have real diagnostic capabilities. There is another one I know and will pay them a visit. I may just tell them to replace the joint anyway.

Thanks again for your ideas.

[JetsetBkk]

.... Every time the wheels spun up the puddles would settle in a different position causing the wheels to go out of balance.

I wish my problem was that one!

[OldenAtwoody]

I'm going to start looking up Thai words for common car parts and write them down. I'll go to another Toyota dealership and explain what I want checking.

Here is link for list of car parts someone has made up which might save some time. If you add anything please re-post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Spark-Plugs-...heryl&st=25

I need to get my dipstick serviced at Soi Cowboy. What's the word for "tune-up"?

[BSJ]

JetsetBkk: There's a central joint where both halves of the prop shaft meet and there was definitely some play. I could move it about 1 cm (1/2 cm up and 1/2 cm down).

You need to be clear about that. Is the play in the mounting bracket or the universal joint?

If it's the metal bracket holding the shaft check to see if it's rubber mounted. It may move that much but look for signs the rubber is disintergating.

If you have 1cm play in the uni joint that's serious! One mm is serious!

The small metal rollers maybe disintegrating inside the uni joint. Lack of grease in the uni joint leads to accelerated wear. You can't see the little rollers until the uni is pulled out.

When you push the clutch in the load is off thew uni and the drive shaft is free wheeling.

[konfuzed]

if there is a "bear" Autoboy anywhere near you, or any similar place, take your vehicle there and ask for balance and tracking - apart from that the soapy water thing sounds fairly plausible.

is it only one gear between certain revs or all gears?

CV joints on FWD usually clack on tighter corners/uturns and not general driving... not heard of it causing issue as driving.

[mgjackson69]

As far as the original photo goes, I would be concerned about the 'weather cracks' down in the groove(s)...I see several.

If the other tires/tyres are the same, I would seriously consider replacing them. But that is me...

[JetsetBkk]

I'm going to start looking up Thai words for common car parts and write them down. I'll go to another Toyota dealership and explain what I want checking.

Here is link for list of car parts someone has made up which might save some time. If you add anything please re-post.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Spark-Plugs-...heryl&st=25

I need to get my dipstick serviced at Soi Cowboy. What's the word for "tune-up"?

"Ha roi baht" should do it. ("Pun baht" if she's a looker)

[JetsetBkk]

JetsetBkk: There's a central joint where both halves of the prop shaft meet and there was definitely some play. I could move it about 1 cm (1/2 cm up and 1/2 cm down).

You need to be clear about that. Is the play in the mounting bracket or the universal joint?

If it's the metal bracket holding the shaft check to see if it's rubber mounted. It may move that much but look for signs the rubber is disintergating.

If you have 1cm play in the uni joint that's serious! One mm is serious!

I think I'll go back and have another look! What I can remember is there was a metal semi-circular bracket bolted to the underside of the pick-up with the joint inside it. The "play" was inside this metal bracket. The metal bracket itself was not moving but I could push the prop-shaft up or pull it down and it felt like there was rubber lining this metal bracket that was allowing the joint to move up or down.

Next time I go I'll remember to take my big torch as it was dark in that pit. And camera to take some pics.

The small metal rollers maybe disintegrating inside the uni joint. Lack of grease in the uni joint leads to accelerated wear. You can't see the little rollers until the uni is pulled out.

When you push the clutch in the load is off the uni and the drive shaft is free wheeling.

Yes, it is really most noticeable when there is a little load being applied. If I accelerate more than just a little, the vibration isn't so noticeable.