My wife's sister is dying from cervical cancer, there is not much time left.

My question is a matter of ethics, the Dr's have not told her, but have told her children, they upto now have also not told her, at first they withheld it from her parents too.

My view is that she should be told, my wife would like her to be informed.

Is this normal in Thai communities? I personally think it is abhorent, the belief that such personal information can be withheld because of the reasoning that it is in their best interest.

What do you think?

Moss

Moss,

it's a sword with two edges. my mother was diagnosed with terminal intestinal cancer and i was told (the oncologist was a classmate of mine) that her maximum life span is 4-6 months. neither she nor my father knew. for more than two years she put up a fight, endured three times surgery as well as radiation and chemotherapy. then she was told by another medic that she has not more than a few months to live. she gave up fighting, taught my father how to cook simple meals, how to operate washer and dryer, how to write a cheque, arranged all details of her funeral and died within a few weeks. even though the medical treatment was a torture, she still enjoyed life during that period and my parents went several times abroad for vacations. i am convinced that she would have died much earlier if i told her the diagnosis in the beginning.

My opinion:

Everyone has the right to know what is happening in regards to their own self.

No one has the right to deprive them of this information, particularly if it involves their likely death.

Everyone can make their own decisions on whether they will continue to fight for their life, or make plans for their death in as much mental and physical comfort as they can control.

Some people may have strong ideas about how they will choose to spend their last days on earth.

To deny them the knowledge, and therefore this chance to decide how they spend the time, is cruelty and not something others have a right to decide.

I've been through a few family and friend deaths both due to cancers and other sudden onset illness, in the cases where there was notice of time left given, it was generally an overestimate and resulted in time running out too quickly for those aware of the time scale (expecting the death to arrive like a train running to the doctor's timetable) and not having said or resolved something that they were putting off until the right time.

The person departing should also be able to complete any tasks that they are putting off until 'the right time'.

This is a case of do it now, cause tomorrow might not come.

HTH.

People are not kept in the dark in western societies, nor should they be (anywhere). Bags is spot on.

I take it the only way the doctors know, is because the lady went to them for help in the first place. Who do they think they are withholding the information ? She way want a second opinion, she may wish to seek alternative therapy ? She has the right to make these decisions.

Thank you for such a personal response Naam.

The wife has told me it is for this very reason the children haven't told her, in case she just gives up.

By the look of the last few weeks alone, she sounds a formidable lady.

Moss

Croc,

I am with you on this, no matter what the effect could be on the emotions, an individual should have the right to live out their remaining days.

Moss

it was generally an overestimate and resulted in time running out too quickly for those aware of the time scale (expecting the death to arrive like a train running to the doctor's timetable) and not having said or resolved something that they were putting off until the right time.

Yes Cuban,

I agree with your views.

Moss

People are not kept in the dark in western societies, nor should they be (anywhere). Bags is spot on.

Ping

I believe we shouldn't impose our own culture, views, strictures on others, but unless it is directly against their customs, I agree.

Moss

I take it the only way the doctors know, is because the lady went to them for help in the first place. Who do they think they are withholding the information ? She way want a second opinion, she may wish to seek alternative therapy ? She has the right to make these decisions.

Suiging,

Yes she should have the right to seek alternative consultation.

Moss

just want to offer my best wishes Moss, and also to Jude.

Very sad story is all I can say...

My story is quite different from Naam. My mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and was told, after a year of chemo, that there were no discernable signs of cancer in her lungs (since she had already had two previous mastectomies, the cancer came back in her lungs). We all rejoiced, assuming this meant no cancer. . She was told this in April, she died in August. It was a shock to all of us, her included. to find out that she was stage IV cancer. It did not prolong her life to not know, but it did make it hard for her and us to say our goodbyes and prepare for death. Had she known I am certain she would have done more to prepare herself, my dad and us kids.

I don't blame the doctors for not making it clear that "no discernable sign of cancer" merely meant that they couldn't see it and for us assuming it meant no cancer. But I do wish I had known as I would have stayed in the US to spend her last remaining months with her rather than have to fly back and arrive the night before she died.

Is this a "Thai culture" thing to not tell? No, I don't believe it is, I know quite a few Thai people who were told they were terminal by their doctors. It sounds like cowardice by the doctor to me, personally. The woman has the right to know what is in store for her.

Can't really give an answer to the OP, except this ...... If I was the patient, I'd want to know.

you don't say in what condition she is in. My aunt had cancer for nearly 12 years & died at the age of 42, by the time her last hope had passed ( she was having an op to remove the latest tumour with the hope of giving her at least another few years when they found it had spread everywhere) she was doped up to the eyeballs on morphine & telling her would have been an unnecessary cruelty. She died a few days later as the stress of the op plus the cancer had taken too much of her but she died with what we hope was the idea that her fight wasn't futile yet. Up to the operation she had been in full control & knowledge of the risks & prognosis.

There is nothing "Thai style" about wanting to save a loved one from pain & despair. Right or wrong they feel they are acting in the best interests & imo it is her childrens choice whether she is told.

*edit*

Changed my mind, nothing constructive to add.

Moss,

it's a sword with two edges. my mother was diagnosed with terminal intestinal cancer and i was told (the oncologist was a classmate of mine) that her maximum life span is 4-6 months. neither she nor my father knew. for more than two years she put up a fight, endured three times surgery as well as radiation and chemotherapy. then she was told by another medic that she has not more than a few months to live. she gave up fighting, taught my father how to cook simple meals, how to operate washer and dryer, how to write a cheque, arranged all details of her funeral and died within a few weeks. even though the medical treatment was a torture, she still enjoyed life during that period and my parents went several times abroad for vacations. i am convinced that she would have died much earlier if i told her the diagnosis in the beginning.

The same happened with my father. He died of Leukhemia at 39.

At the time I was 16 and thought my mum was doing the right thing. Now, i'm not so sure. As if it was me, i would certainly like to know. There are things that i feel i have not finished or done and i'd at least like the opportunity to do them, or as many of them as i possibly could.

Has anyone seen the film The Bucket List ?

My dad had prostate cancer at 64, he dies aged 89.

I have prostate cancer, I should live to 95.

I can dream.

just want to offer my best wishes Moss, and also to Jude.

Hello my old friend, thanks for the wishes, Jude is doing great, I have some great pics for you. The situation is not hard on me, I am just hoping that the wife gets back in time to see her.

Hope you are well

Jude & Moss & J

Very sad story is all I can say...

Yes it is Tigs

Can't really give an answer to the OP, except this ...... If I was the patient, I'd want to know.

I think so too Thad

*edit*

Changed my mind, nothing constructive to add.

Anything is constructive, even the most destructive post can have a positive response

Good Luck

Moss

Is this a "Thai culture" thing to not tell? No, I don't believe it is, I know quite a few Thai people who were told they were terminal by their doctors. It sounds like cowardice by the doctor to me, personally. The woman has the right to know what is in store for her.

Thank you S' for commenting on the Thai Culture aspect, because I have had conflicting views so far within the family.

I agree she needs to know.

I have strong views on other parts of your post, but have decided, it is not the time or place.

Moss

you don't say in what condition she is in.

From all accounts a few months.

& telling her would have been an unnecessary cruelty.

Every situation is different, in this case, with no chance of a differing outcome and medicated out of all control, I agree with the decision, all situations have there own merits.

There is nothing "Thai style" about wanting to save a loved one from pain & . despair

I agree

Right or wrong they feel they are acting in the best interests & imo it is her childrens choice whether she is told.

I am sure they feel they are acting in her best interests, but I whole hearted disagree that it is their choice, she is fully compos mentis and can serve out the rest of her life how she sees fit, it is not anybody else's decision.

Moss

Is this a "Thai culture" thing to not tell? No, I don't believe it is, I know quite a few Thai people who were told they were terminal by their doctors. It sounds like cowardice by the doctor to me, personally. The woman has the right to know what is in store for her.

Thank you S' for commenting on the Thai Culture aspect, because I have had conflicting views so far within the family.

I agree she needs to know.

I have strong views on other parts of your post, but have decided, it is not the time or place.

Moss

I'd be curious to hear when it is. PM me

My first wife died of breast cancer after fighting the disease for almost 18 years. She was in remission for seven great years and we made the most of them, but we both knew that eventually the other shoe was going to drop and the cancer would return (she had a very aggressive form of breast cancer). When it came back, she fought it aggressively, even becoming one of the first patients to be tested for a new process called a bone marrow transplant. But it eventually wore her down and when she died, she was a mere 84 pounds. We never discussed the word "terminal," which her doctors had used when sending her home from the hospital about two weeks before she died. But we both knew the end was coming. The patient always knows...they can feel their life fading away...don't let anyone kid you. But in the case of my wife, she faced the inevitable with dignity and grace and when she breathed her last, she died in my arms and was surrounded by the rest of her family. In looking back at this after 18 years, I don't we would have done anything different. But I know if I ever am diagnosed with cancer, I will refuse treatment. I will take quality of life over quantity.