The Third Sex

[sokal]

Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. I suspect gays have their parades because they have been suppressed for so long that now that they can be open about it they show it....eventually, there will be no need for "Gay Pride" as the generations become more accepting.

Is body-building a flaunting of masculinity?

You talk about alpha males. Are beta males less masculime, lesser men? If so, where do they fit into the black and white, penis for penetration scenario?

When you think about that, consider the "shades of grey" theory.

Where does maleness end and femininity begin?

Did you know that the more sons a woman has, the more testosterone affects her system as there is some passover of the hormone from the foetus. Does this make the mother of many sons, who has a moustache forming and a squarer jaw as she gets older any less of a woman?

There is no shades of grey. Bi people think they are attracted to females in the same way as heterosexuals but evidently they are not because they are attracted to males who have no reproductive features.

[Garry9999]

Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. I suspect gays have their parades because they have been suppressed for so long that now that they can be open about it they show it....eventually, there will be no need for "Gay Pride" as the generations become more accepting.

Is body-building a flaunting of masculinity?

You talk about alpha males. Are beta males less masculime, lesser men? If so, where do they fit into the black and white, penis for penetration scenario?

When you think about that, consider the "shades of grey" theory.

Where does maleness end and femininity begin?

Did you know that the more sons a woman has, the more testosterone affects her system as there is some passover of the hormone from the foetus. Does this make the mother of many sons, who has a moustache forming and a squarer jaw as she gets older any less of a woman?

There is no shades of grey. Bi people think they are attracted to females in the same way as heterosexuals but evidently they are not because they are attracted to males who have no reproductive features.

Sokai, How many people are thinking about reproducing when having sex?

[sokal]

Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. I suspect gays have their parades because they have been suppressed for so long that now that they can be open about it they show it....eventually, there will be no need for "Gay Pride" as the generations become more accepting.

Is body-building a flaunting of masculinity?

You talk about alpha males. Are beta males less masculime, lesser men? If so, where do they fit into the black and white, penis for penetration scenario?

When you think about that, consider the "shades of grey" theory.

Where does maleness end and femininity begin?

Did you know that the more sons a woman has, the more testosterone affects her system as there is some passover of the hormone from the foetus. Does this make the mother of many sons, who has a moustache forming and a squarer jaw as she gets older any less of a woman?

There is no shades of grey. Bi people think they are attracted to females in the same way as heterosexuals but evidently they are not because they are attracted to males who have no reproductive features.

Sokai, How many people are thinking about reproducing when having sex?

Its totally abstract. I am talking about the reasons why males are atracted to females.

How many people are thinking about growing when they are eating ?

[MrHammer]

There's been studies showing that bi-sexual men and women are more fertile on average than the rest of the population which led to the theory that bisexuality is really hypersexuality. ie. caring more about release than with who.

As for the question about thinking about reproducing while having sex, I think most hetero males have an urge to shoot their load INSIDE a woman, regardless of what modern porn depicts.

[Garry9999]

Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. I suspect gays have their parades because they have been suppressed for so long that now that they can be open about it they show it....eventually, there will be no need for "Gay Pride" as the generations become more accepting.

Is body-building a flaunting of masculinity?

You talk about alpha males. Are beta males less masculime, lesser men? If so, where do they fit into the black and white, penis for penetration scenario?

When you think about that, consider the "shades of grey" theory.

Where does maleness end and femininity begin?

Did you know that the more sons a woman has, the more testosterone affects her system as there is some passover of the hormone from the foetus. Does this make the mother of many sons, who has a moustache forming and a squarer jaw as she gets older any less of a woman?

There is no shades of grey. Bi people think they are attracted to females in the same way as heterosexuals but evidently they are not because they are attracted to males who have no reproductive features.

Sokai, How many people are thinking about reproducing when having sex?

Its totally abstract. I am talking about the reasons why males are atracted to females.

How many people are thinking about growing when they are eating ?

Maybe for you, you just see black and white, other people can see the shades of gray.

[Rumfoord]

I like the Thai definition, any male that is not a heterosexual is lacking masculinity, nothing demeaning about it, its just the way it is.

I also think that it makes logical sense that a gay guy is a woman in a mans body so it is more practical to be a ladyboy if you are a male that is attracted to men. A ladyboy gets alot more attention from men then a gay person. I know a heterosexual guy that married a ladyboy.

I guess you got me wrong.

There isn't a Thai definition that says any not heterosexual male is lacking masculinity.

I was trying to give a definition/translation for the Thai word Kathoey and explanation that contrary to popular western believe not only describes transgender persons, `shemales`or "ladyboys" or whatever you wanna call them, but is also used to described gay men.

I should have been clearer that I mean only a certain group of gay people, soft man, effeminate gay or queeny, as describes by peaceblondie.

I thought "lack masculinity " or "don't penetrate but got penetrate by other 'men'" would be clarification enough.

A heterosexual man is reproducing. but doesn't must have much to do with full developed masculinity. for example a concept of the 'ideal man' in the Thai society is the 'family man', he helps with the daily shopping, clean the dishes, take care the kids too and can change pampers. Not the typical characteristics of a 'real man'.

How a boy learns to become a male, a male male? In our western world it is connected with a lot of group activities with the same sex, with other boys or males.

Starts with physical education, train your strength in direct competition, body body contact wearing a ludicrous dress in wrestling or shorts while boxing, other males watching and jeer. Smoke your first cigarette together with other boys. Go hunting or camping with your friends. Play chicken game. Go to army. Go to the gym.

male gender role, male male activities aren’t so much heterosexual activities like dating, mating and spend time with females, but hang out and have fun with other boys. Do stupid things together with the boys, play or watch team sport together with the boys. Like that American game with the egg-shaped ball, players wearing helmets and shoulder pads and jump on top of each other seconds after the referee gave the signal. Later they shower together. That looks pretty gay to me.

Who represents more masculinity a male nurse or a Special Forces soldier, a cabin steward on a cruise ship or a roughneck on an oilrig.

Heterosexual men live their life as less manly family men or it starts to get complicated, daddy never told you about the venus issue, she don’t get it right, going through divorce, she got the house and you the vintage lawn mower. Life is a bitch and than comes the claim for maintenance. And you start complain about the existence of women.blame feminists and join a men's rights advocacy group.

A mummy's boy will never become 'real men’. You don’t need much females around to create masculinity. Masculinity comes for the price of absence of woman.

Being gay comes with the absence of woman.

In case you don't know, gay is (also) a male male thing, full of masculinity. Look, it is obvious, it is an all boys or boys only club. They are into men, 'real men' and celebrate and live out their own maleness.

[Rumfoord]

Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

i see a family man.

for how many years the twins kept that hair cut?

[PeaceBlondie]

Here's the photos: gay man with 6 kids, etc. Think bi-sexual if that helps.

i see a family man.

for how many years the twins kept that hair cut?

Yes, a family man, like the straight Mexican-American triathlete who married my daughter and stayed home for the last 25 years changing diapers, etc.

The twins still have long blond hair at 25. So do I.

[tombkk]

I do not and will never believe that you caused 9 pregnancies so don't waste your time trying to prove it. The large majority of people are heterosexual all over the world so it is obviously more heterosexual oriented. That is the way it will always be.

When I look at a female I naturally focus on the round rump and hips that make up the womb and I also see a development on the chest. (I am getting horney just writing this.) .....I am guessing that a gay person does not have the same attractions because men have none of these features.

Your posts show that you are blind and refuse to know the truth. I will not post the proof, but six pregnancies resulted in live births. You show you are ignorant. Have a nice day.

I like the Thai definition, any male that is not a heterosexual is lacking masculinity, nothing demeaning about it, its just the way it is.

I also think that it makes logical sense that a gay guy is a woman in a mans body so it is more practical to be a ladyboy if you are a male that is attracted to men. A ladyboy gets alot more attention from men then a gay person. I know a heterosexual guy that married a ladyboy.

I am starting to enjoy your contributions to this thread. I am not lacking any masculinity, and if your definition of masculinity is to beget children, you have proven yourself wrong: I know many gays who are fathers, and I know many straight guys who are not.

I haven't read the end of this thread yet, please excuse me while I fetch some popcorn.

[robblok]

I really dont know why so many people have problems with gays. Just think positive the more gay males there are the more girls there are left. Just be hostile to lesbians

[tombkk]

I know that but heterosexuality is a manly trait because men want to reproduce so if you are gay then you do not show the same interest in reproducing.

I don't know where you live, but reproduction is not the purpose of the men visiting Soi Nana. As far as I know.

[Bakeman]

"The ladyboy cabarets of Thailand are a leading tourist attraction but the glamorous and attractive men, who are now women, are a modern expression of an archaic attraction. The kathoey, the Thai term for ladyboys, have long been part of the cultural landscape of Thailand. Many communities acccept a "third sex", from Thailand and Samoa to American Indians and the Philippines. Only in the West has savage repression occurred. If the existence of a "third sex" is a universal property, is Western society so repressed by its cultural heritage that the Thais represent a norm in nature? Why are there so many kathoey in Thailand? Why are there so few in the Western world?"

Richard Totman

This should not even be a topic. There are Kathoey in the U.S.. They are in L.A., San Francisco, Hollywood, Austin Teaxs, etc... To each their own. As a single male who only desires women I still feel that people should be free to be what they want to be. In America the bible forbids this type of behavior so it is hidden but not less prevalent.

[tombkk]

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

Did you consider the possibility that most Thais don't get it right either? Kathoey defines a transgender and for the average Thai, gay and transgender is samesame. Just as it is samesame for some of the posters in here. They are unfortunately mistaken.

I'd like to add another opinion of a Turkish guy living in Germany that puts it plain an simple (but not necessarily correct):

If you penetrate, you're male, if you get penetrated, you're female. Doesn't matter of with gender you are.

LOL! Indeed a very simplified opinion. So this friend of yours penetrates anybody (or anything) he encounters and that makes him a real man? Interesting.

[tombkk]

It's really entertaining (but also quite depressing) watching the Binary Boys trying to stuff the whole of human sexuality into two boxes labelled 'Men' and 'Women'

You mean homosexual and heterosexual ? This discussion is not allot different then comparing the difference between night and day or black and white.

Sometimes, sokal, you almost begin to post non-ignorantly. We're stating a known fact: that some men who have only a penis and a flat chest are attracted to and mate with BOTH genders. I found it easy enough to enjoy about 5000 orgasms inside a vagina, touching my wife's breasts and hips, etc. All the while I knew I also wanted to have sex with men. For about ten years, I functioned as a bisexual, alternating between genders. I knew many Hispanics who function as bi but swear they're only macho males who penetrate holes. Gender is almost always obvious naked. Preferences span the full spectrum.

Back to Thailand's 3rd gender: Thais don't agree what it means in Thai. Neither do we farang. That level of 'mai kojai' is mai bpen rai. Have a nice day.

You said it, not me. You specifically said that western society gave you no choice but to be strait so that is why you where involved with females. It sounds like your heterosexual ventures were for reasons other then pure natural attraction.

If you find men attractive then there is no way that you find females attractive in the same biological way as a heterosexual alpha male does. If you did then you would not be gay.

Sorry to interrupt, but your black-or-white theory doesn't hold. I know many people (male and female) who are attracted to both genders and make their temporary or permanent choices of partners are based on character (and probably looks) and not on gender. I wish I didn't burst your bubble, but here I go....

[tombkk]

I really dont know why so many people have problems with gays. Just think positive the more gay males there are the more girls there are left. Just be hostile to lesbians

;-) In fact, I have heard the same from lesbians.

Anyway guys who have issues with gays have an issue with themselves. Otherwise, why would they even care whether anybody is gay? It wouldn't affect them an iota.

As a friend of mine in rural England said when I came out to him: "I like big tits. I'm glad to know you are gay, this means my wife won't run away with you. Come to visit us any time you want."

[raro]

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

Did you consider the possibility that most Thais don't get it right either? Kathoey defines a transgender and for the average Thai, gay and transgender is samesame. Just as it is samesame for some of the posters in here. They are unfortunately mistaken.

I'd like to add another opinion of a Turkish guy living in Germany that puts it plain an simple (but not necessarily correct):

If you penetrate, you're male, if you get penetrated, you're female. Doesn't matter of with gender you are.

LOL! Indeed a very simplified opinion. So this friend of yours penetrates anybody (or anything) he encounters and that makes him a real man? Interesting.

Let me straighten (no pun intended) this a bit further....

The above statement was from a Turkish guy made about a year ago and comfirms what I understood from my days in a Turkish youthclub over 20 years ago.

I did not go to the army but did what we call "civil service" in Germany and I ended up as assistant to the social workers in a Turkish Youth Club in my German hometown.

Now, first problem is, someone who doesn't go to the army, he cannot be a real man according to the Turks in that club (please do not take this as a racist remark, but as an observation from this very limited demoscopic group of some 50 to 100 Turks of a rather lower soicial layer).

Next is, I used to have shoulder long hair, round John Lennon glasses and a leather band in my hair. I was 19 years old, and had no girlfriend. You may not believe this, but I was rather shy those days...

When asked why no girlfriend I answered (purely for joking) "I prefer guys". This was not YET my social suicide, the next question was crucial: are you the one who gets <nasty word removed> or are you the MAN?

Not aware of the significance of this question I just said something along the lines "I like it both" and well...that was the social suicide

Lesson learned, my demoscopic group of Turks had neither much sense of humour nor were they tolerant towards gay queens.

[tombkk]

My apologies in advance for not having read the whole thread, but I assume that people are aware that some of us were born with indeterminate external sexual characteristics? In some cases, with no external sexual characteristics?

In fact, no, I am not aware of this, I have never heard of people with indeterminate or no external sexual characteristics. Do you have a link from which I could learn? I wouldn't even know what to search for a Wikipedia, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Thanks.

[tombkk]

Katoey is a word of the thai language. it is a word that doesn't makes a clear destinction between gays and that what you call "transvestite or transsexual"

Did you consider the possibility that most Thais don't get it right either? Kathoey defines a transgender and for the average Thai, gay and transgender is samesame. Just as it is samesame for some of the posters in here. They are unfortunately mistaken.

I'd like to add another opinion of a Turkish guy living in Germany that puts it plain an simple (but not necessarily correct):

If you penetrate, you're male, if you get penetrated, you're female. Doesn't matter of with gender you are.

LOL! Indeed a very simplified opinion. So this friend of yours penetrates anybody (or anything) he encounters and that makes him a real man? Interesting.

Let me straighten (no pun intended) this a bit further....

The above statement was from a Turkish guy made about a year ago and comfirms what I understood from my days in a Turkish youthclub over 20 years ago.

I did not go to the army but did what we call "civil service" in Germany and I ended up as assistant to the social workers in a Turkish Youth Club in my German hometown.

Now, first problem is, someone who doesn't go to the army, he cannot be a real man according to the Turks in that club (please do not take this as a racist remark, but as an observation from this very limited demoscopic group of some 50 to 100 Turks of a rather lower soicial layer).

Next is, I used to have shoulder long hair, round John Lennon glasses and a leather band in my hair. I was 19 years old, and had no girlfriend. You may not believe this, but I was rather shy those days...

When asked why no girlfriend I answered (purely for joking) "I prefer guys". This was not YET my social suicide, the next question was crucial: are you the one who gets <nasty word removed> or are you the MAN?

Not aware of the significance of this question I just said something along the lines "I like it both" and well...that was the social suicide

Lesson learned, my demoscopic group of Turks had neither much sense of humour nor were they tolerant towards gay queens.

Different times, different places. But interesting nevertheless.

Coming out to a Turkish group at the time would have been something I would have considered thinking about before doing. Coming out to be gay in that situation is hazardous, more in the vicinity of Class 1 than Class 7 (Explosive i.e. instant experience rather than radioactive i.e. slow degradation). IOW I'm happy to know you are still alive.

I won't comment further as I know you are 100% straight. Why in he_l would you try this stunt? Don't you have enough problems and needed to attract more? <confused>

[Rumfoord]

Yes, a family man, like the straight Mexican-American triathlete who married my daughter and stayed home for the last 25 years changing diapers, etc.

The twins still have long blond hair at 25. So do I.

i was asking about the haircut, the bangs. http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/06/27...rls-with-bangs/

one of my early childhood memories is that my 10 years older sister gave me that haircut as she and her 2 other female friends needed some dummy for hair style/cut experiments.

on a side note:

my native language, german, doesn't know the family man or family MAN. possible translation could be Familienmensch re-translated family person which would be gender-neutral, another term could be (guter) Familienvater, re-translated (good) father of a family.

there isn't a combination of family and MAN or a more specific sub category of the gender role man as the family man in the german language.

that is a subtle distinction that can matter in the end.

a small example how language determines and shapes your thoughts.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Rumfoord

[sokal]

There's been studies showing that bi-sexual men and women are more fertile on average than the rest of the population which led to the theory that bisexuality is really hypersexuality. ie. caring more about release than with who.

As for the question about thinking about reproducing while having sex, I think most hetero males have an urge to shoot their load INSIDE a woman, regardless of what modern porn depicts.

haha, no. That makes not biological or scientific sense.

[sokal]

I like the Thai definition, any male that is not a heterosexual is lacking masculinity, nothing demeaning about it, its just the way it is.

I also think that it makes logical sense that a gay guy is a woman in a mans body so it is more practical to be a ladyboy if you are a male that is attracted to men. A ladyboy gets alot more attention from men then a gay person. I know a heterosexual guy that married a ladyboy.

I guess you got me wrong.

There isn't a Thai definition that says any not heterosexual male is lacking masculinity.

I was trying to give a definition/translation for the Thai word Kathoey and explanation that contrary to popular western believe not only describes transgender persons, `shemales`or "ladyboys" or whatever you wanna call them, but is also used to described gay men.

I should have been clearer that I mean only a certain group of gay people, soft man, effeminate gay or queeny, as describes by peaceblondie.

I thought "lack masculinity " or "don't penetrate but got penetrate by other 'men'" would be clarification enough.

A heterosexual man is reproducing. but doesn't must have much to do with full developed masculinity. for example a concept of the 'ideal man' in the Thai society is the 'family man', he helps with the daily shopping, clean the dishes, take care the kids too and can change pampers. Not the typical characteristics of a 'real man'.

How a boy learns to become a male, a male male? In our western world it is connected with a lot of group activities with the same sex, with other boys or males.

Starts with physical education, train your strength in direct competition, body body contact wearing a ludicrous dress in wrestling or shorts while boxing, other males watching and jeer. Smoke your first cigarette together with other boys. Go hunting or camping with your friends. Play chicken game. Go to army. Go to the gym.

male gender role, male male activities aren't so much heterosexual activities like dating, mating and spend time with females, but hang out and have fun with other boys. Do stupid things together with the boys, play or watch team sport together with the boys. Like that American game with the egg-shaped ball, players wearing helmets and shoulder pads and jump on top of each other seconds after the referee gave the signal. Later they shower together. That looks pretty gay to me.

Who represents more masculinity a male nurse or a Special Forces soldier, a cabin steward on a cruise ship or a roughneck on an oilrig.

Heterosexual men live their life as less manly family men or it starts to get complicated, daddy never told you about the venus issue, she don't get it right, going through divorce, she got the house and you the vintage lawn mower. Life is a bitch and than comes the claim for maintenance. And you start complain about the existence of women.blame feminists and join a men's rights advocacy group.

A mummy's boy will never become 'real men'. You don't need much females around to create masculinity. Masculinity comes for the price of absence of woman.

Being gay comes with the absence of woman.

In case you don't know, gay is (also) a male male thing, full of masculinity. Look, it is obvious, it is an all boys or boys only club. They are into men, 'real men' and celebrate and live out their own maleness.

That is all wrong too.

Males from age 5 to 14 usually have all male friends through school and as they grow up. They do because they feel comfortable around fellow males. When you think about your school friends I am guessing male names come to mind. Then as they grow through puberty they mingle with females more and more and eventually have girlfriends.

Homosexuals do the opposite, they hang around females as they grow up because they are intimidated by the males. Do you ever remember some guy that always hung around with the girls in school ? He might appear the least gay but he is actually the gay one.

[Rumfoord]

When asked why no girlfriend I answered (purely for joking) "I prefer guys". This was not YET my social suicide, the next question was crucial: are you the one who gets <nasty word removed> or are you the MAN?

Not aware of the significance of this question I just said something along the lines "I like it both" and well...that was the social suicide

"Cultures can have very different norms of maleness and masculinity. Blechner identifies the terror, in Western males, of penetration. Yet in many societies, being gay is defined only by being a male who lets himself be penetrated. Males who penetrate other males are considered masculine and not gay and are not the targets of prejudice.[18] In other cultures, however, receptive fellatio is the norm for early adolescence and seen as a requirement for developing normal manliness."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies#Mark_Blechner

the entry to Gender Studies on wikipedia is far from good and focussed to much on psychoanalytic aspects and is totally fragmentary and incomplete. but the penetration problem is mentioned so i quoted it above.

[endure]

That is all wrong too.

Males from age 5 to 14 usually have all male friends through school and as they grow up. They do because they feel comfortable around fellow males. When you think about your school friends I am guessing male names come to mind. Then as they grow through puberty they mingle with females more and more and eventually have girlfriends.

Homosexuals do the opposite, they hang around females as they grow up because they are intimidated by the males. Do you ever remember some guy that always hung around with the girls in school ? He might appear the least gay but he is actually the gay one.

I'm sorry but you're talking stereotypical nonsense. There are more homosexuals in the world than the effeminate ones. The only reason that the kind of stereotype you believe in is perpetrated is because the non-effeminate homosexuals aren't obvious to the world at large.

[sokal]

Sorry to interrupt, but your black-or-white theory doesn't hold. I know many people (male and female) who are attracted to both genders and make their temporary or permanent choices of partners are based on character (and probably looks) and not on gender. I wish I didn't burst your bubble, but here I go....

If they were biologically the same as heterosexuals then they would not be gay or bi. A male cannot pass on his genes by having sex with men, it is not possible. These are sceintific facts.

[LaoPo]

Sorry to interrupt, but your black-or-white theory doesn't hold. I know many people (male and female) who are attracted to both genders and make their temporary or permanent choices of partners are based on character (and probably looks) and not on gender. I wish I didn't burst your bubble, but here I go....

If they were biologically the same as heterosexuals then they would not be gay or bi. A male cannot pass on his genes by having sex with men, it is not possible. These are sceintific facts.

For a heterosexual male human being you seem to be quite obsessed with gay, lesbian and katoey/transgender people and only your own opinion is right.

There is no room for other opinions but your own....

LaoPo

[PeaceBlondie]

In Thailand more clearly than in the West, generally-usually-often, many gay Thai boys tend to run around more with girls. However, even here, the exceptions are glaring. One of my obviously gay students asked if my boyfriend was student X, a guy I hadn't guessed was gay. Mayan teenage boys practically paw each other, but marry girls at age 14. Yet the gay Mayan I met wasn't obvious. I've had sex with some really macho adult dudes, including a guy who started having straight sex at age 12. Expression of sexuality is on a two or three dimensional scale, and it changes over the years.

[raro]

"Cultures can have very different norms of maleness and masculinity. Blechner identifies the terror, in Western males, of penetration. Yet in many societies, being gay is defined only by being a male who lets himself be penetrated. Males who penetrate other males are considered masculine and not gay and are not the targets of prejudice.[18] In other cultures, however, receptive fellatio is the norm for early adolescence and seen as a requirement for developing normal manliness."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies#Mark_Blechner

the entry to Gender Studies on wikipedia is far from good and focussed to much on psychoanalytic aspects and is totally fragmentary and incomplete. but the penetration problem is mentioned so i quoted it above.

that's pretty much what I wanted to get at. Different cultures have a different interpretaion of what is hetero or homosexual.

One more thing came to mind...what about all the hetero farang males in Thailand that like Thai girls with flat chests and small hips....are they all....naaa perish the thought!

[FarangForce5]

There are so many ladyboys in Thailand, because and foremost of the conservative educational system re moral issues here, and secondary because of the monetary circumstances, meaning, to work with foreigners in the night scene for instance and most of the "advertisings" are done with katoyes nowadays, because they are cheaper than women and a lot of to choose from.

Are you saying that you think one of the main reasons that there are so many ladyboys in Thailand is because of the tourist "night scene"? I highly doubt this is true. I think 99.99% of LB's choose that lifestyle because it's who they are/want to be, not because it's an opportunity to make money. People don't cut their d*cks off for money.

[Birdman]

A pal saw a small boy torturing a dog tied up to a tree by the boy. He came to the boy and tried to explain, that this dog is a feeling living being as well...etc etc...On the same day the boys family came to see my pal and started to shout aggressively at him, because of interfering in the boys 'activities'.

That was an example of getting overwhelming love by everyone as a child here, which can do whatever it wants more or less. Later however, reaching puberty, many are completely helpless and extremely shy re the other sex, because of the system. But that unconscious longing by now to get what ones want, is still a part of the personality. So, one of the ways to deal with that and to satisfy the new emerging strong desires is turning to their own sex...

Others are only in for the money. That's why hordes of LB work at the major tourist destinations here.

And how much is the percentage of LB cutting their cock anyway?

[manarak]

So, one of the ways to deal with that and to satisfy the new emerging strong desires is turning to their own sex...

that's for the gays... but for ladyboys, they all say they started between 6 and 8 y.o.