To the victor go the spoils

This is a pretty good answer.

Obama wants to believe that the Palestinians are really interested in a two state solution - despite all the evidence to the contrary - and he is willing to jeopardize Israel's security in order to go down in history. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride,

Some people wanted to be believe in an Irish two state solution ( term applied here for analogical reasoning ) despite all the evidence to the contrary and were willing to jeopardise several countries security in order to go down in history

That is an excellent example. These "people" were never able to achieve anything concrete until they renounced violence and they were never able to get rid of the other side. They could have accomplished what little they did long before they actually did and without all the bloodshed of innocents.

If the Palestinians had learned from their example, they would have had their own state long ago.

How to make a positive into a negative?

My point was in contrast to your earlier post, their should always be hope, even in the depths of despair.

However, the 'people', you refer to, in the above quote are actually outside of the loop, who provided security, arms and money to preserve the status quo.

There are two things that cement and perpetuate an internecine struggle, the support of the indigenous peoples of either side and the protection of the assets of outside influences, of course we have to disregard an implacable hatred, this can only be lessened, not healed.

In Ireland the struggle began to wane when the mothers of the land decided enough was enough, but more importantly when the international financial circuits were being threatened with movement to Germany after sustained attacks in the inner circle.

There are parallels in the middle east, until the hard liners of both sides start listening to the moderates and the people who support the present standing army start applying pressure that works, it will go on and on.

An eye for an eye, until everyone is blind

There is one big problem with your scenerio. It won't work when only one side has any true moderates who are interested in peace. If wishes were horses...

why did we stop with only two? We could have bombed Japan back into the stone ages and we didn't.

I am not sure they could have continued with Atomic Weapons, did they have any left after Nagasaki?

They might have had one if any at all. That's why they chose a city and not a demonstration over the ocean. As it turns out, one city wasn't enough to get the surrender so it's obvious that exploding one over the ocean wouldn't have either.

I've read they had no more A bombs.

Found a map of how the land supposed to have been divided by those ugly British and French.

Israel was attacked by Arab nations 4 times, hmmmmmmm.....Israel never (first) attacked any Arab nation in the time period of the last 100 years?

I find it a bit strange that Jews claim this portion of land and stating that for example they founded Jerusalem, Jerusalem apparently means: 'Built-up place of Shalem" some ancient God.

If someone can enlighten me on what the determining factor is in claiming ownership of a piece of land please feel free to do so.

I've read they had no more A bombs.

So have I, but my gentle nudges to Chuck seem to land on deaf ears

They had several more A-bombs that would have been ready within weeks, but Japan finally decided to surrender and thousands of American soldier's lives were saved. The Bomb brought what was sure to be a long terrible war to a halt.

I've read they had no more A bombs.

So have I, but my gentle nudges to Chuck seem to land on deaf ears

Was I supposed to respond? The US may have had only the two. Since I wasn't part of the Manhattan Project, I can't really say.

What I can say is we had B-29s galore, lots of B-17s and the capability to make all the conventional bombs in the US that were needed.

We didn't make the conventional weapons or use the bombers because the two nukes we used brought some common sense to the ruling hierarchy in Japan.

Edited out stupid remark.

The Tokyo firebombings killed a lot more people than the A-bomb ever did and America had something like 500 "Pumpkin" bombs available. If the US had wanted to inflict more damage while waiting a week for another A- bomb, it could have.

While critics in Japan and elsewhere decry such attacks as war crimes, others say the Tokyo assault took place against a backdrop of the increasing brutality of total war fueled by the militarism of the Axis powers.

The German air attack on Guernica in the Spanish Civil War and the Japanese bombing of Chungking, China, (now known as Chongqing) in the 1930s are cited as early examples of indiscriminate urban air raids � a trend that greatly expanded in World War II.

"At this stage, everybody had been burning down cities," said Thomas Searle, a historian at the Airpower Research Institute, at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. "The Americans certainly weren't out of step in that sense."

The Tokyo attack was aimed in part at demolishing Japanese morale and hastening a surrender. Planners also wanted to wipe out small factories and drive away their employees as a way of choking the economy.

For some unknown reason, there are some of our members that believe the Japanese were victims during WWII. Here is a brief excerpt from Wikipedia:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:

"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[18]"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

These people were as brutal as the Nazis and deserved the same treatment the Nazis received. If the truth be known, the nukes probably saved many more lives than they took.

the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

I have no desire to defend Nazis or Japanese Imperialists, but I will point out that the language of that historian suggests that the adage "To the victor goes the right to write history" is all too true.

Then do your own research:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[edit] Notes

^ Chapel, Joseph (2004). "Denial of the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking". http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcus...lNanjing046.htm.

^ Blumenthal, Ralph (March 7, 1999). "The World: Revisiting World War II Atrocities; Comparing the Unspeakable to the Unthinkable". The New York Times. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...xprod=permalink. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^ "http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/in_depth/39166.stm". BBC News Online. December 13, 1997. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/in_depth/39166.stm. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^ Sanger, David (October 22, 1992). "Japanese Edgy Over Emperor's Visit to China". http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...753C1A964958260. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^ China Weekly Review October 22, 1938

^ Nuremberg Tribunal (October 1, 1946). "Judgment: The Law Relating to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity". Yale Law School. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judlawre.htm. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^ See, for example: Wai Keng Kwok, 2001, "Justice Done? Criminal and Moral Responsibility Issues In the Chinese Massacres Trial Singapore, 1947" (Genocide Studies Program Working Paper No. 18, Yale University), p. 27. Access date: April 23, 2007.

^ a b Chang, Maria Hsia; Barker, Robert P. (2003). "Victor's Justice and Japan's Amnesia". in Peter, Li. Japanese War Crimes: The Search for Justice. Transaction Publishers. pp. 44. ISBN 0765808900.

^ Lippman, Matthew (January 1, 2004). "The history, development, and decline of crimes against peace". George Washington International Law Review 36 (5): 25. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa54...ag=artBody;col1. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^"Under Japanese law, 14 at Yasukuni not criminals: Abe". The Japan Times. October 7, 2006. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20061007a4.html. Retrieved 2008-07-26.

^ a b See, for example, Yutaka Kawasaki, “Was the 1910 Annexation Treaty Between Korea and Japan Concluded Legally?” Murdoch University Electronic Journal of Law, v.3, no. 2 (July 1996) Access date: February 15, 2007.

^ See, for example: Craig Symonds, “War, Politics, and Grand Strategy in the Pacific, 1941-1945”, Air University Review, November-December 1979 (Access date: February 15, 2007): “most American historians, date the war from December 1941”. See also Edward Drea, "Introduction", in Edward Drea, Greg Bradsher, Robert Hanyok, James Lide, Michael Petersen & Daqing Yang, 2006, Researching Japanese War Crimes Records (National Archives and Records Administration, Washington D.C.; p. 15): "The atrocities at Nanjing occurred four years before the United States entered the war. At that time, the U.S. government did not have a large military or diplomatic intelligence network in China. A handful of trained military or embassy personnel reported on events, sometimes second-hand; compared with the sensational press coverage, the official U.S. documentation was scant. As a result, with the exception of the records produced during the postwar Class A war crimes trial of the commanding general of Japanese forces deemed responsible for the Rape of Nanking, there are few materials on this subject at the National Archives." See also, Ben-Ami Shillony, "Book Review, Book Title: A History of Japan, 1582-1941 Internal and External Worlds, Author: L. M. Cullen Professor of History, Trinity College, Dublin", (Institute of Historical Research, February 2004) (Access date: February 15, 2007); Grant K. Goodman, "Review 'The Kempei Tai in the Philippines: 1941-1945' by Ma. Felisa A. Syjuco" Pacific Affairs, v. 64, no. 2 (Summer, 1991), pp. 282-283 (Access date: February 15, 2007); United Nations Human Rights Committee, "Fifty-Ninth Session, 24 March - 11 April 1997, Decisions, Communication No. 601/1994" (April 3, 1997) (Access date: February 15, 2007);Gary K. Reynolds, 2002, U.S. Prisoners of War and Civilian American Citizens Captured and Interned by Japan in World War II: The Issue of Compensation by Japan(Congressional Research Service, The Library of Congress, December 17, 2002) Access date: February 15, 2007).

^ de Jong, Louis (2002) [2002]. The collapse of a colonial society. The Dutch in Indonesia during the Second World War. Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 206. translation J. Kilian, C. Kist and J. Rudge, introduction J. Kemperman. Leiden, The Netherlands: KITLV Press. pp. 40, 42, 45, 203–204, 305–307, 311–312, 328, 373–374, 386, 391, 393, 429, 488. ISBN 90 6718 203 6.

^ a b Yuki Tanaka, Hidden Horrors, Japanese War crimes in WW II, pp 72-3

^ "German-POW camp reveals little-known history of Japan". Kyodo News. January 31, 2000. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0XPQ/is_/ai_59198009. Retrieved 2008-10-20.

^ "Japanese POW camp was a little slice of home". Agence France-Presse. March 23, 2004. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archi...3/23/2003107480. Retrieved 2008-10-20.

^ de Jong, Louis (2002) [2002]. The collapse of a colonial society. The Dutch in Indonesia during the Second World War. Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 206. translation J. Kilian, C. Kist and J. Rudge, introduction J. Kemperman. Leiden, The Netherlands: KITLV Press. pp. 289 311 417. ISBN 90 6718 203 6.

^ Johnson, Looting of Asia

^ Yuki Tanaka, 1996, Hidden Horrors, p.2–3.

^ Akira Fujiwara, Nitchû Sensô ni Okeru Horyo Gyakusatsu, Kikan Sensô Sekinin Kenkyû 9, 1995, p.22

^ Tanaka, ibid., Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, 2001, p.360

^ Rummell, Statistics

^ China's Bloody Century

^ Chang, p. 102

^ Byrd, Gregory Dean, General Ishii Shiro: His Legacy is that of a Genius and Madman, p. ? (PDF document)

^ GlobalSecurity.org, 2005 "Biological Weapons Program". Downloaded November 26, 2006

^ Daniel Barenblatt, A Plague upon Humanity, 2004, p.xii, 173.

^ Christopher Hudson (2 March 2007). "Doctors of Depravity". Daily Mail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770.

^ [1]

^ The Denver Post, June 1, 1995, cited by Gary K. Reynolds, 2002, "U.S. Prisoners of War and Civilian American Citizens Captured and Interned by Japan in World War II: The Issue of Compensation by Japan" (Library of Congress)

^ BBC "Japanese doctor admits POW abuse" Downloaded November 26, 2006, 12:52 GMT

^ Kyodo News Agency, "Ex-navy officer admits to vivisection of war prisoners in Philippines," reported in Yahoo! Asia News: [2]

^ [Vivisectionist recalls his day of reckoning". Japan Times. 2007-10-24. p. 3.

^ Yuki Tanaka, Poison Gas, the Story Japan Would Like to Forget, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, October 1988, p. 16-17

^ Yoshimi and Matsuno, Dokugasusen kankei shiryô II, Kaisetsu 1997

^ http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Washingto...ases_in_Warfare

^ Yuki Tanaka, Poison Gas, the Story Japan Would Like to Forget, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, October 1988, p.17

^ Japan tested chemical weapons on Aussie POW: new evidence, http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/nn20040727a9.html

^ de Jong, Louis (2002) [2002]. "III Starvation in the Indies". The collapse of a colonial society. The Dutch in Indonesia during the Second World War. Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 206. translation J. Kilian, C. Kist and J. Rudge, introduction J. Kemperman. Leiden, The Netherlands: KITLV Press. pp. 227–281. ISBN 90 6718 203 6.

^ "Vietnam needs to remember famine of 1945"

^ Dower, John W. War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War (1986; Pantheon; ISBN 0-394-75172-8)

^ Honda, Katsuichi and Gibney, Frank. The Nanjing Massacre. 1999, page 272-6

^ Honda, Katsuichi and Gibney, Frank. The Nanjing Massacre. 1999, page 272-6

^ Chapel, Joseph (2004). "Denial of the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking". http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcus...lNanjing046.htm.

^ de Jong, Louis (2002) [2002]. The collapse of a colonial society. The Dutch in Indonesia during the Second World War. Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde 206. translation J. Kilian, C. Kist and J. Rudge, introduction J. Kemperman. Leiden, The Netherlands: KITLV Press. pp. 167 170–173 181–184 196 204–225 309–314 323–325 337–338 341 343 345–346 380 407. ISBN 90 6718 203 6.

^ Haruko Taya Cook & Theodore F. Cook, Japan at War 1993 ISBN 1-56584-039-9, p. 153

^ Tanaka, Hidden horrors: Japanese War Crimes in World War II, Westview press, 1996, p.127.

^ Lord Russell of Liverpool (Edward Russell), The Knights of Bushido, a short history of Japanese War Crimes, Greenhill books, 2002, p.236.

^ Ibid., p.121.

^ ''Case No. 21 Trial Of General Tomoyuki Yamashita[,] United States Military Commission, Manila, (8 October-7 December, 1945), and the Supreme Court Of The United States (Judgments Delivered On 4 February, 1946). Part VI (Retrieved on December 18, 2006); Jeanie M. Welch, "Without a Hangman, Without a Rope: Navy War Crimes Trials After World War II", International Journal of Naval History, v.1, No. 1, April 2002, p.5-6

^ Navarro Figure 8 and 9 https://www.msu.edu/~navarro6/srop.html

^ Zhifen Ju, Japan's atrocities of conscripting and abusing north China draftees after the outbreak of the pacific war, 2002

^ links for research, Allied POWs under the Japanese

^ Library of Congress, 1992, "Indonesia: World War II and the Struggle For Independence, 1942-50; The Japanese Occupation, 1942-45" Access date: February 9, 2007.

^ Fujiwara, Nitchû sensô ni okeru horyo gyakusatsu, 1995

^ CNN.com - Japanese comfort women ruling overturned - March 29, 2001

^ Yoshiaki Yoshimi, 2001-02, Comfort Women: Sexual Slavery in the Japanese Military during World War II. Columbia University Press

^ Washington Post, "Japan's Abe: no proof of WWII sex slaves"

^ New York Times, "No comfort", March 6, 2007. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06tues3.html, accessed March 8, 2007

^ Washington Post, Ibid.

^ Evidence documenting sex-slave coercion revealed

^ Files: Females forced into sexual servitude in wartime Indonesia http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070512a6.html

^ East Timor former sex slaves speak out http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070428f1.html

^ Todd Cardy, 2007, "Japanese PM's denial upsets 'comfort woman'" (News.com.au; March 5, 2007). Access date: March 7, 2007)

^ China Daily. Memoir of comfort woman tells of 'hel_l for women'

^ http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf...women/index.htm & http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...e_japan_rebuke/

^ Comfort Women Were 'Raped': U.S. Ambassador to Japan

^ Abe ignores evidence, say Australia's 'comfort women'

^ Yoshimi, ibid., http://hnn.us/articles/printfriendly/9954.html, http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp77.html and http://hnn.us/articles/13533.html] [http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10155

^ U.S. Panel OKs sex slave resolution, http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20070628a1.html

^ U.S. House passes sex slave resolution | The Japan Times Online

^ Kenneth B. Lee, 1997, Korea and East Asia: The Story of a Phoenix, Westport, CT: Greenwood Publishing Group; Sterling & Peggy Seagrave, 2003, Gold warriors: America’s secret recovery of Yamashita’s gold, London: Verso Books (ISBN 1-85984-542-8); Chalmers Johnson "The Looting of Asia" (London Review of Books, v. 25 no. 22, November 20, 2003) and; Takashi Yoshida, 2006, The Making of the "Rape of Nanking": History and Memory in Japan, China, and the United States, New York: Oxford University Press (ISBN 0-19518-096-8).

^ Dower, John (2000). Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II, p. 447

^ Kumao Toyoda, Senso saiban yoroku, 1986, p.170–172, H. Bix, Hirohito and the making of modern Japan, 2000, p.583, 584

^ Dower,Embracing defeat, 1999, p.326

^ Dower, Hirohito, p.562.

^ Bix, Hirohito, p.585, 583

^ The Korea Times, "Truth Commission Should Be Truthful", Michael Breen, http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/opinion/20...19251454330.htm

^ "Harry S. Truman - Executive Order 10393 - Establishment of the Clemency and Parole Board for War Criminals". http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78495. Retrieved 2009-04-13.

^ Maguire, Peter H.. Law and War. p. 255. http://books.google.com/books?id=87H1R-Oql...num=4#PPA255,M1.

^ Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan (quoted on the Taiwan Documents Project), Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China, [3]

^ "PBS. Online NewsHour: I'm Sorry - December 1, 1998". http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-d...china_12-1.html.

^ "Japan's Abe Denies Proof of World War II Sex Slaves", New York Times (Associated Press), March 1, 2007., http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-J....html?ref=world, retrieved March 1, 2007

^ Tabuchi, Hiroko, "Japan's Abe: No Proof of WWII Sex Slaves", Washington Post (The Associated Press), http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7030100578.html, retrieved March 1, 2007

^ a b "Tamogami ups Nationalist rhetoric". http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081112a1.html.

^ http://www.apa.co.jp/book_report/images/20...syu_english.pdf Text of original essay

^ Freeman, Laurie A., "Japan's Press Clubs as Information Cartels," Japan Policy Research Institute, (April, 1996), [4]. Discusses impending visit in 1990 to Japan by Korean president Roh Tae Woo in which Japanese cabinet secretary Ozawa Ichiro reportedly said, "it is because we have reflected on the past that we cooperate with Korea economically. Is it really necessary to grovel on our hands and knees and prostrate ourselves any more than we already have?". This alleged remark is called the dogeza hatsugen (prostration comment).

^ Facing History and Ourselves, Willy Brandt's Silent Apology, [5].

^ www.cornell.edu

^ Borneman, Can Public Apologies Contribute to Peace?

^ McCormack, Gavan, "Difficult Neighbors: Japan, North Korea and the Quest for a New East Asian Order," Modern Asia Series, Harvard University Asia Center, (May 3, 2004), Access date: December 8, 2007.

^ http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...307/ai_n9253436

^ . Official homepage of US Congressman of 15th district California. http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca15_...ntestimony.html, accessed March 8, 2007

^ [Linda Goetz Holmes, Unjust Enrichment: How Japan's Companies Built Postwar Fortunes Using American POW's, http://search.japantimes.co.jp/print/rc20090222a4.html

^ Fujiwara, Shôwa tennô no jû-go nen sensô, Aoki Shoten, 1991, p.122

^ http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/natio...ategoryCode=117

^ http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/natio...ategoryCode=117

^ http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/natio...ategoryCode=117

^ a b BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Korean WWII sex slaves fight on

^ a b The Seoul Times. Ex-sex slave narrates: "Japan Boiled Comfort Woman to Make Soup". Japanese Army Ran "Comfort Woman System"

^ Digital Chosunilbo (English Edition) : Daily News in English About Korea. Military Record of 'Comfort Woman' Unearthed

^ http://goldsea.com/Asiagate/609/17wartime.html

^ http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20081017a3.html

For some unknown reason, there are some of our members that believe the Japanese were victims during WWII. Here is a brief excerpt from Wikipedia:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:

"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[18]"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

These people were as brutal as the Nazis and deserved the same treatment the Nazis received. If the truth be known, the nukes probably saved many more lives than they took.

the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

I'm interested in the numbers.

So often the holocaust is cited as the reason why anti-semitism is a crime beyond racism and to be abhorred. The holocaust where 6 million Jews perished.

20 million Russians, 30 million SE Asians.....they do not get a special place in the law books. Why is that?

In 1947, displaced European Jews are given a place to call home; Israel. They are allowed to displace millions of Arabs...over time and continually. Why is that?

Why is the state of Israel allowed to commit racial discrimination (in the form of allocating Israeli Arabs 2nd class citizenship and restricted political representation)?

If we hark back to WR's green/white maps...why is the Palestinain area shrinking so rapidly? Does anyone not think that as volume is compressed, pressure will build up? Literally and figuratively.

So often the holocaust is cited as the reason why anti-semitism is a crime beyond racism and to be abhorred. The holocaust where 6 million Jews perished.

Who makes these absurd claims other than racist nuts trying to justify the holocaust? Genocide is a terrible crime period no matter who is targeted

As far as Israel goes, do you know anything about the history at all? There were only about 800,000 permanent Arab residents in that area - not millions - and most of them left because the Arab countries asked them to do so to make it "easier" to wipe out the Jews.

Israel told them that their land would be confiscated if they left it. They could have kept it if they had stayed, but they believed their Muslim brothers and the rest is history.

The Arabs of Palestine left their homes, were scattered, and lost everything. But there remained one solid hope: The Arab armies were on the eve of their entry into Palestine to save the country and return things to their normal course, punish the aggressor, and throw oppressive Zionism with its dreams and dangers into the sea. On May 14, 1948, crowds of Arabs stood by the roads leading to the frontiers of Palestine, enthusiastically welcoming the advancing armies. Days and weeks passed, sufficient to accomplish the sacred mission, but the Arab armies did not save the country. They did nothing but let slip from their hands Acre, Sarafand, Lydda, Ramleh, Nazareth, most of the south and the rest of the north. Then hope fled (Middle East Journal, October 1949).

Genocide is a terrible crime period no matter who is targeted

and yet................

To the victor go the spoils

This is a pretty good answer.

And yet what? The Arabs were the only ones planning on genocide.

And yet what? The Arabs were the only ones planning on genocide.

Is that what all the goldies say?

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

The Palestinians should have accepted the UN solution 62 years ago, but they listened to the Arab countries who have used them as pawns ever since.

And yet what? The Arabs were the only ones planning on genocide.

Is that what all the goldies say?

Can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E?

Maybe we can cut all the little personal yada yada yada... he said ...she said...

I would hate to see another thread closed over such

Found a map of how the land supposed to have been divided by those ugly British and French.

Israel was attacked by Arab nations 4 times, hmmmmmmm.....Israel never (first) attacked any Arab nation in the time period of the last 100 years?

I find it a bit strange that Jews claim this portion of land and stating that for example they founded Jerusalem, Jerusalem apparently means: 'Built-up place of Shalem" some ancient God.

If someone can enlighten me on what the determining factor is in claiming ownership of a piece of land please feel free to do so.

I just saw Ben-Hur again this weekend. 2000 years ago the Jews were trying to get the Roman occupiers off of their land (Jerusalem, etc). Charlton Heston says it's so and that's good enough for me.

An eye for an eye, until everyone is blind

Not if you blind the other guys first it doesn't.

I'm interested in the numbers.

So often the holocaust is cited as the reason why anti-semitism is a crime beyond racism and to be abhorred. The holocaust where 6 million Jews perished.

20 million Russians, 30 million SE Asians.....they do not get a special place in the law books. Why is that?

In 1947, displaced European Jews are given a place to call home; Israel. They are allowed to displace millions of Arabs...over time and continually. Why is that?

Are you being serious? The 6 million were non-combatants. Old people, women, children crammed into cattle cars and taken to death camps where they were gassed and stuffed into ovens. They didn't have a fighting chance. The others did.

If you want to compare genocides of the period, look at Stalin's man-made famine of the early 30's in Ukraine which killed 7-10 million through starvation (not a quick death). If more producers, directors & writers were Ukrainian you might have seen more of it.

Why is the state of Israel allowed to commit racial discrimination (in the form of allocating Israeli Arabs 2nd class citizenship and restricted political representation)?

You mean Arabs are even allowed to LIVE in Israel? I wonder how long an Israeli would last in the Paestinian territories? The 2nd class citizens you speak of can serve i the Parliament and practive their religion in peace. Maybe things aren't perfect but compared to what the other side is offering it sure looks like it is.

If we hark back to WR's green/white maps...why is the Palestinain area shrinking so rapidly? Does anyone not think that as volume is compressed, pressure will build up? Literally and figuratively.

Maybe because they're leaders are crooks and thieves interested only in enriching themselves. They saw how Arafat did it now they want their share. IF they cared about the Palestinian people 1/10 of they like to make believe, the situation would be a lot different - and peaceful.

Norman Finkelstein vs Shlomo Ben Ami

A very good informative debate on the Israel Palestinian issue, please watch all six parts:

Another proof of US foreign policy and hypocrisy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24765669/Symingt...ontrol-Act-1976

If you agree with sending weapons of mass destruction to states that do not comply with the Symington amendment, you are a supporter of terror.

The Nato forces admitting they killed pregnant women and tried to cover it up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/as....html?ref=world

Have you opened your mind yet you pro terror people?

Have you opened your mind yet you pro terror people?

You should be asking yourself that question.

Another proof of US foreign policy and hypocrisy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24765669/Symingt...ontrol-Act-1976

If you agree with sending weapons of mass destruction to states that do not comply with the Symington amendment, you are a supporter of terror.

Have you opened your mind yet you pro terror people?

AlexLah:

Please provide a response to the following questions.

1. Can you prove that Israel has nuclear weapons?

2. Can you prove that, if they even have them, the weapons were provided to them by the US?

3. Can you provide the specific act of Congress which authorized the alleged sale of these nuclear weapons to Israel, if one indeed does exist?

4. Can you provide us the name of the President that authorized the alleged sale of these weapons to Israel?

I anxiously await your response to these questions.

In response to your last question, my mind has been open for quite some time. I've seen the terror up close and personal.

Have you?

An eye for an eye, until everyone is blind

Not if you blind the other guys first it doesn't.

Genocide then?

An eye for an eye, until everyone is blind

Not if you blind the other guys first it doesn't.

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king:

It could also potentially mean that with leader's who only see one side of things, or only do things in a way that doesn't regard anyone else, a deprived group of people or nation would follow without question.

Yeah Right

1. Can you prove that Israel has nuclear weapons?

2. Can you prove that, if they even have them, the weapons were provided to them by the US?

3. Can you provide the specific act of Congress which authorized the alleged sale of these nuclear weapons to Israel, if one indeed does exist?

4. Can you provide us the name of the President that authorized the alleged sale of these weapons to Israel?

From Wiki your favorite source it seems.

Israel is also widely believed to have nuclear weapons, though it has refused to confirm or deny this.

My question to you: Why has Israel not signed the NPT, why do they not confirm or deny?

Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/892941.stm

Or this: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

It is not only about selling nuclear weapons or technology Chuck, it is about selling weapons that can cause massive destruction

please read the 115 pages and investigate what WMD are and how the definition of them was made.

Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance

From here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Your other questions are clearly attempts to stall and deny things. You know nuclear stuff was provided by the French and WMD were and still are provided by the US to Israel in their illegitimate war against Palestine.

Have any of you watched the debate?

I guess not as you are afraid of the truth.

I watched most of it, but got bored of all the BS. If I am going to,watch propoganda, the BBC and CNN are more entertaining.

1. Can you prove that Israel has nuclear weapons?

2. Can you prove that, if they even have them, the weapons were provided to them by the US?

3. Can you provide the specific act of Congress which authorized the alleged sale of these nuclear weapons to Israel, if one indeed does exist?

4. Can you provide us the name of the President that authorized the alleged sale of these weapons to Israel?

From Wiki your favorite source it seems.

Israel is also widely believed to have nuclear weapons, though it has refused to confirm or deny this.

My question to you: Why has Israel not signed the NPT, why do they not confirm or deny?

Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/892941.stm

Or this: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

It is not only about selling nuclear weapons or technology Chuck, it is about selling weapons that can cause massive destruction

please read the 115 pages and investigate what WMD are and how the definition of them was made.

Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance

From here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Your other questions are clearly attempts to stall and deny things. You know nuclear stuff was provided by the French and WMD were and still are provided by the US to Israel in their illegitimate war against Palestine.

Have any of you watched the debate?

I guess not as you are afraid of the truth.

1. Did you ever stop to think they haven't signed the NPT because they don't have any nuclear weapons?

2. These are your words and are certainly not proof of anything..."Israel is also widely believed to have nuclear weapons, though it has refused to confirm or deny this." Read it very carefully and then try and tell me this proves anything. It is a theory and nothing else.

3. Do you have any proof of the provisioning of nuclear weapons to Israel by France? You certainly don't have any proof the US has ever done it so I am wondering if you have any proof the French ever did.

4. I hardly need to read the Arms Export Control Act since I have been managing a contract under these regulations for most of the past 20 years, hence I am fairly knowledgeable about various weapons systems and the conditions involved in their sale and the transfer of technology.

5. I am aware of some sales which have been made to Israel over the years. Most of them are defensive in nature. I might even be able to discuss them with you if you have a high enough US security clearance.

6. I am not afraid of the truth but I do believe if allegations are made, one should be able to back it up or drop the subject. You have worn this subject down to a frazzle and have provided absolutely no proof that the US, or Israel for that matter, has done anything illegal.

I will watch your debate tomorrow morning. Not tonight, please.

You keep clutching at straws and coming up empty. I applaude you for your perseverance, however misguided you might be.