All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government

[ChiangMaiFun]

nice to know you are concerned by my lack of political education... now let's get back to the main point... the people (you know... those folk beyond BKK) voted (you know putting a tick in a box?) for a red (that horrible man Thaksin's party) for their government and the elected (yes I give you that point) MP's have (by hook or by crook) formed a new coalition of many hues (none being red).

Forgetting all the humurous and playful debate here let them decide who they want as the political landscape has changed. I bow to your superior knowldege of Parliamentary procedure but.. you would agree? an election? to decide? bring peace? fair and square? (the last point is mute i know).

Maybe if you did work on your political education you wouldn't make such simplistic posts. You assume that Thailand follows a party political system similar to the West, in that a candidate will have ideals and will run for the party that best serves these. You broadly know what you are getting when you vote for a Labour candidate, or a Liberal, or Conservative, or Democrat, or Republican, or Monster Raving Loony. In Thailand however, the ideal of the MP is to get into the winning coalition, as this gives a greater chance of quickly getting back the money paid to win the seat.

The vast majority of up country voters will vote for the same candidate each time, without either caring or understanding what party they are currently in, or what the ideals of that party are. Other than those banned by the election commission, you will see the same names in the lists of winning MP's over and over again, but you will see many different party names. If we trace the single biggest party in 1996, with 125 seats, the NAP, we see that it dropped to 41 in 2001 and zero in 2005. All those poor MP's voted out of office by a public tired of them? Not a bit of it. The majority, including high level figures like Chalerm Yubamrung, jumped ship to the TRT, then the PPP. Many then moved to the PTP, with the remainder jumping to the BJP.

Your image of the poor Isaan farmer hopefully putting a tick beside "Thaksin's man" is a compelling one, if not for the fact that the same Isaan farmer placed a tick beside the same name when he was Chavalit's man, and will continue doing so when he is Newin's man, or Chalerm's man. Sure, there are those who do support Thaksin, but I'd say the majority will continue voting for the same dynasties as always, and couldn't really care less about who is in charge as long as there's money for the rice and cheap lao khao at the local shop. It is this sad fact that people should be trying to change, through voter education rather than paid protests to bring back a faded criminal.

Calling for an election in this climate is akin to putting another coat of paint over a rotten floor. It looks better, but I guarantee the resultant list of MPs will be very similar to that of today, only the wheeling and dealing and jostling for power will change, and the same rotten substrata is still in place waiting for someone to fall through it. And you know what? There is absolutely nothing that your hero, and his hired help, did to change this in all their years of power.

My hero? that's an insult and typical of your type... of course YOU are superior in every way right? YOU know what's good for the Thai people right? I actually have many misgivings about Thaksin and your coating of me is puerile and immature rhetoric - I simply comment -you simply condemn and wallow in your intellectual superiority – don’t worry it shines through – loud and clear!

[ChiangMaiFun]

BOTH OF YOU WELL SAID.

Democracy is wonderful if you actually have something to choose between...

Oh yea! Amen, Amen, Amen! the TV Farang have sorted it all out... down with Thaksin (sorry for keeping sooooo quiet when you were PM) and HORRAY all the other good guys... oh yea... good has triumphed! so now everythings ok we can settle down now? Lordy, lordy thank the good Lord!

[KireB]

Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual’s want them to...

When there's a significant group of Thais selling their votes and a group of crooked politicians buying them, I dont think an election is a solution!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual's want them to...

When there's a significant group of Thais selling their votes and a group of crooked politicians buying them, I dont think an election is a solution!

well...ok... good point... and your solution? ( by the way the same arguement against elections could be put forward for 100 countries) - what's the answer? (besides a true Theocracy in an ideal world).

.

[ballpoint]

My hero? that's an insult and typical of your type... of course YOU are superior in every way right? YOU know what's good for the Thai people right? I actually have many misgivings about Thaksin and your coating of me is puerile and immature rhetoric - I simply comment -you simply condemn and wallow in your intellectual superiority – don't worry it shines through – loud and clear!

Yeah yeah, seen it all before. Deny you support the guy, ignore the facts pointed out, make snide references as to the maturity and intellect of anyone pointing those facts out, and carry on posting the same old stuff. All too common. I called your post simplistic because it was. Repeating "election... election... over and over again without giving your views as to why they would be so good, what you think and hope they'd achieve, and what the path to the ultimate solution should be is not "comment". I've said why I don't think elections are the answer right now. We'd just have pretty much the same group of people in parliament, and more wrangling, dealing and pocketed "agreement money" would be the result, to the detriment of the country. I think part of the problem is that the average Thais see Thaksin as not having been punished, and find it hard to believe he ever will be, being a rich poo yai. Face it, no one of his stature ever has been. The first step towards a better future will be to hit him in the pocket big time, or make him see some jail time. Let the little guy know, for maybe the first time ever, that nobody is above the law. Get the asset case out of the way. Let the, so far at least, honest pairing of Abhisit and Korn stabilise the country and then call elections when it's safe for any candidate of any party to campaign anywhere in the country without the threat of violence and intimidation. Even then, I still believe the majority of the country will carry on voting for the same old faces. The country has a long way to go. Until a group of honest, like minded people, with a properly defined social policy, form a party, successfully weed out the hangers on looking for easy money, and get around the Newins, Banharns, Chavalits, Chalerms et al, things really aren't going to change. Giving the people a choice, and educating them to use that choice in the best way for themselves and the country, are two huge stumbling blocks.

[rixalex]

Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy?

Hold an election? OK. And why exactly?

Because you want one? Because Thaksin and his merry mob demand one?

Abhisit is the current lawful leader of this country. You might not like that. You might not like the way he came to power. Tough. Fact remains, he is the leader and he is there lawfully. As such, it's his decision when to call an election. Not yours. Not Thaksin's.

[animatic]

As is typical of crunch time for the Taksin side, BIG rallies coming,

Bringing down the government, so much 'INTENSITY' on their side,

oooh aah, beware the're on the move...

And on TV as the warm up round there are a bunch of relatively newbie posters

who suddenly become very prolific, saying almost the same thing over and over again.

All spouting willy nilly the only avenue Thaksin has left to garner a crowd.

Trying to make any dissenting views seem mean spirited and elitist,

and so theoretically, in their narrow, reddened world view, less believable.

Excepting one problem, it's been done to death with no effect on the situation.

It's so blatent, and so predictable, (I did already twice) and so OBVIOUSLY a put on.

And so ineffective too. No TVF minds have been swayed to change their logic

more than a jot, and it becomes intentionally divisive but doesn't solve the problem a bit.

Not sure why Thaksin and Red leadership bothers with TVF, but maybe it's because

our general opinions ARE being viewed and discussed by 'more world viewing' Thais.

AND ALSO GIVEN THE FAR OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY OF COMING TO POWER THROUGH VIOLENCE

he would need to PRE-JUSTIFY those actions against the people of Thailand,

to the outside world he wants to still do business with.... hhhhmm.

It wouldn't be too profitable to tear the country apart, take control,

and then be embargoed for taking out a duly elected parliament and cabinet

One coup does NOT right an earlier one, especially if the country has gone past that,

even if Thaksin hasn't. And besides, doing that wouldn't be democratic at all.

Oh my, what's a would be despot to do? Oh yeah this is not about democracy but his money.

Sure there are some who want to restore and idealised democracy, but don't seem to

realize there is one existing here already, and it is functioning in the Thai way.

TVF as world opinion makers...interesting concept.

I imagine a few people do find our arguments credible,

even if not the most eloquent or civil on the planet.

[ChiangMaiFun]

As is typical of crunch time for the Taksin side, BIG rallies coming,

Bringing down the government, so much 'INTENSITY' on their side,

oooh aah, beware the're on the move...

And on TV as the warm up round there are a bunch of relatively newbie posters

who suddenly become very prolific, saying almost the same thing over and over again.

All spouting willy nilly the only avenue Thaksin has left to garner a crowd.

Trying to make any dissenting views seem mean spirited and elitist,

and so theoretically, in their narrow, reddened world view, less believable.

Excepting one problem, it's been done to death with no effect on the situation.

It's so blatent, and so predictable, (I did already twice) and so OBVIOUSLY a put on.

And so ineffective too. No TVF minds have been swayed to change their logic

more than a jot, and it becomes intentionally divisive but doesn't solve the problem a bit.

Not sure why Thaksin and Red leadership bothers with TVF, but maybe it's because

our general opinions ARE being viewed and discussed by 'more world viewing' Thais.

AND ALSO GIVEN THE FAR OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY OF COMING TO POWER THROUGH VIOLENCE

he would need to PRE-JUSTIFY those actions against the people of Thailand,

to the outside world he wants to still do business with.... hhhhmm.

It wouldn't be too profitable to tear the country apart, take control,

and then be embargoed for taking out a duly elected parliament and cabinet

One coup does NOT right an earlier one, especially if the country has gone past that,

even if Thaksin hasn't. And besides, doing that wouldn't be democratic at all.

Oh my, what's a would be despot to do? Oh yeah this is not about democracy but his money.

Sure there are some who want to restore and idealised democracy, but don't seem to

realize there is one existing here already, and it is functioning in the Thai way.

TVF as world opinion makers...interesting concept.

I imagine a few people do find our arguments credible,

even if not the most eloquent or civil on the planet.

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

So please don't paint me as 'infiltrating' this board with popaganda - you, sir, are coming across that way not me. I am entitled to my view along with many others and it is as valid as yours. Argue? yes... debate? yes... but don't put anyone with a differing persepective as a 'placed' voice of dissent and divisiveness - it's immature, playground style not worthy of you.

[David006]

Red-shirt leaders to hold meeting on Jan 15

Red-shirt leaders will hold a meeting on January 15 to discuss strategies for campaigning to topple the Democrat Part-led government, one of them said Saturday.

Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said leaders of the red-shirt movement would discuss strategies for holding a mass rally with goal to bring down the government.

The meeting would decide the venue and form of the rally.

Natthawut said the campaigns would be peaceful.

"It will be the biggest ever rally of the red-shirt people," Natthawut said.

-- The Nation 2010/1/2

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

When does the charge of treason enter the equation?

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

[rixalex]

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

Some advice. Feel free to ignore it.

If you want to sound more credible, why not start by actually addressing some of the many arguments that have been put to you over the last page or two. Point after point has been made and all you do is ignore and repeat your mantra about elections being the answer to all.

On that subject, you state that the current government doesn't want one because they would lose. Maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn't (if the last election is anything to go by, no party would be capable of winning outright). So what? What's your point? You think that because they would lose they should hold an election to prove your point?

[hammered]

As is typical of crunch time for the Taksin side, BIG rallies coming,

Bringing down the government, so much 'INTENSITY' on their side,

oooh aah, beware the're on the move...

And on TV as the warm up round there are a bunch of relatively newbie posters

who suddenly become very prolific, saying almost the same thing over and over again.

All spouting willy nilly the only avenue Thaksin has left to garner a crowd.

Trying to make any dissenting views seem mean spirited and elitist,

and so theoretically, in their narrow, reddened world view, less believable.

Excepting one problem, it's been done to death with no effect on the situation.

It's so blatent, and so predictable, (I did already twice) and so OBVIOUSLY a put on.

And so ineffective too. No TVF minds have been swayed to change their logic

more than a jot, and it becomes intentionally divisive but doesn't solve the problem a bit.

Not sure why Thaksin and Red leadership bothers with TVF, but maybe it's because

our general opinions ARE being viewed and discussed by 'more world viewing' Thais.

AND ALSO GIVEN THE FAR OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY OF COMING TO POWER THROUGH VIOLENCE

he would need to PRE-JUSTIFY those actions against the people of Thailand,

to the outside world he wants to still do business with.... hhhhmm.

It wouldn't be too profitable to tear the country apart, take control,

and then be embargoed for taking out a duly elected parliament and cabinet

One coup does NOT right an earlier one, especially if the country has gone past that,

even if Thaksin hasn't. And besides, doing that wouldn't be democratic at all.

Oh my, what's a would be despot to do? Oh yeah this is not about democracy but his money.

Sure there are some who want to restore and idealised democracy, but don't seem to

realize there is one existing here already, and it is functioning in the Thai way.

TVF as world opinion makers...interesting concept.

I imagine a few people do find our arguments credible,

even if not the most eloquent or civil on the planet.

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

So please don't paint me as 'infiltrating' this board with popaganda - you, sir, are coming across that way not me. I am entitled to my view along with many others and it is as valid as yours. Argue? yes... debate? yes... but don't put anyone with a differing persepective as a 'placed' voice of dissent and divisiveness - it's immature, playground style not worthy of you.

Since Mahasarkham (big swing away from PTP) and Prachinburi (landslide BJT win), which seem to indicate movment since the last round of by-elections, it is fair to assume nobody really is that certain about an election outcome. However, as the economy picks up and populaist policies begin to bite it is fair to assume the current government want to delay holding an election for maybe a year. It is also fair to assume that for the same reason the opposition would like it ASAP. That is the nature of all electoral poltics the world over if not held on a fixed schedule. Everyone is looking to competetive advantage ie when they feel they would do best.

Thailand by th eway has virtually always had coaliton government and until recently that was the only check and balance that worked. ie when public outrage got out of control a coaliton partner would withdraw support thereby enabling parliamne to come up with a new line up or of they couldnt agree or the sitting PM felt piqued enough an election to be called

[KireB]

Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual's want them to...

When there's a significant group of Thais selling their votes and a group of crooked politicians buying them, I dont think an election is a solution!

well...ok... good point... and your solution? ( by the way the same arguement against elections could be put forward for 100 countries) - what's the answer? (besides a true Theocracy in an ideal world).

.

The solution is as easy as it is impossible I'm afraid. Educate the masses, reinstate the entire police force, maintain law enforcement, and above all put every crooked politician in jail. Democracy in a corrupt society is the same as a snow blizzard on a hot sunny day!

[jayboy]

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

Does that include those who actually go beyond incitement and actually take over the government in a criminal and illegal military coup?

[animatic]

"popaganda"

Coming from;

Modern version of Uganda?

Papa Doc, Baby Doc, Shin Doc?

All PR types are from a 'Mob?

All from Chaing mai are from mobs?

All those with badly formed theories are suddenly from a mob?

Maybe it's just that Chaing Mai is so much in the sway of 'Thaksin thought speak',

it's hard to think someone with a obvious Chaing mai nick isn't quite biased.

I have seen two so far who weren't strongly biased against anything not Thaksin.

So a preponderance irrespective of nationality it seems.

I have friends in Chaing mai too. They seem to support this general idea.

And clearly the most aggressive Thaksin side people are from Chaing Mai and Udon.

CM51 is definitely a mob, and there never seems too much protest about them from CM.

Maybe I think being lobbied, repeatedly and aggressively, for something

I deem bad for the Thai people is something that needs a counter argument.

Certainly there are sincere people on that side of the argument,

but that doesn't win the argument.

KireB has it right "Educate the Masses."

All sides of all arguments, leaning towards understanding, not silencing one side.

Not information control by one side to maintain power,

and that means freedom of thought for all,

and freedom of rebuttal for all too.

I am not trying to silence clear and personalized thoughts of individuals,

but I am not pleased to see the boiler plate cut and paste repeated efforts

of those who seem to have only looked at one side and deemed that sufficient.

Yes, home of the Magna Carta, and also the BNP,

also Edward II and Gaveston, assorted Dispensers, choose Churchill or Chamberlain.

Not all from the land of The Mother of All Parliaments are admirable at running countries.

Some had sterling strength of purpose at certain times, and little at others,

some were useless much of the time.

Disraeli was a master political operative, but also had Derby and Gladstone as foils.

He became a Rector with rectitude, even if he wrote 'Vivien Grey' in early days.

Benjamin Disreali -

- One of the hardest things in this world is to admit you are wrong.

And nothing is more helpful in resolving a situation than its frank admission.

[animatic]

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

Does that include those who actually go beyond incitement and actually take over the government in a criminal and illegal military coup?

Donchya know

History and laws are written by winners.

Losers are just that.

And lets also state that:

Those who incite insurrection and social disorder/chaos as excuses to

TAKE OVER a government should be arrested and jailed, deported or..

Such as the methods being used by Thaksin and his clique after the failed election of 2006.

So an equal argument is that the army prevented his taking complete control via force

and a ginned up martial law aimed at removing the last vestiges of dissent about his misrule.

Two sides of the same coin; Thaksin flipped it and lost the bet.

Edited January 16, 2010 by animatic

[jayboy]

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

Does that include those who actually go beyond incitement and actually take over the government in a criminal and illegal military coup?

Donchya know

History and laws are written by winners.

Losers are just that.

And lets also state that:

Those who incite insurrection and social disorder/chaos as excuses to

TAKE OVER a government should be arrested and jailed, deported or..

Such as the methods being used by Thaksin and his clique after the failed election of 2006.

So an equal argument is that the army prevented his taking complete control via force

and a ginned up martial law aimed at removing the last vestiges of dissent about his misrule.

Two sides of the same coin; Thaksin flipped it and lost the bet.

So if I understand you correctly if those inciting insurrection actually succeeded then their actions would have been justified (like the criminals who succeeded in their military coup) because winners write history and laws.In other words might is right.

Some would argue this nothing more than the law of the jungle.So be it but for those that hold on to this disgusting morality do at least spare us hypocritical sermons on your outrage on Thaksin's misdeeds.

P.S Of course if an unrepresentative elite denies or seeks to thwart the peoples right to chose a government (as in Burma) the people have every right to rise up.

Edited January 16, 2010 by jayboy

[TAWP]

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

So please don't paint me as 'infiltrating' this board with popaganda - you, sir, are coming across that way not me. I am entitled to my view along with many others and it is as valid as yours. Argue? yes... debate? yes... but don't put anyone with a differing persepective as a 'placed' voice of dissent and divisiveness - it's immature, playground style not worthy of you.

You are proud over the fact that you didn't have a coalition? I would call it a typical modern failed democracy. Just like the republican US is today a failed two-party system that effectively shut out any dissent voices. A coalition makes sure that the risk of 'the dictatorship of the majority' is lessened.

[animatic]

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

Does that include those who actually go beyond incitement and actually take over the government in a criminal and illegal military coup?

Donchya know

History and laws are written by winners.

Losers are just that.

And lets also state that:

Those who incite insurrection and social disorder/chaos as excuses to

TAKE OVER a government should be arrested and jailed, deported or..

Such as the methods being used by Thaksin and his clique after the failed election of 2006.

So an equal argument is that the army prevented his taking complete control via force

and a ginned up martial law aimed at removing the last vestiges of dissent about his misrule.

Two sides of the same coin; Thaksin flipped it and lost the bet.

So if I understand you correctly if those inciting insurrection actually succeeded then their actions would have been justified (like the criminals who succeeded in their military coup) because winners write history and laws.In other words might is right.

Some would argue this nothing more than the law of the jungle. So be it but for those that hold on to this disgusting morality do at least spare us hypocritical sermons on your outrage on Thaksin's misdeeds.

P.S Of course if an unrepresentative elite denies or seeks to thwart the peoples right to chose a government (as in Burma) the people have every right to rise up.

As usual you don't understand me correctly.

But only in the way that furthers your own argument.

And you add a flame, towards the devils advocate arguments.

Knowing the close, and profitable, ties between Kuhn Thaksin and the Burmese generals,

abd fortune-tellers too, and contrasting the violence and lack of it between the two examples,

it's interesting you make this comparison.

[hammered]

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

So please don't paint me as 'infiltrating' this board with popaganda - you, sir, are coming across that way not me. I am entitled to my view along with many others and it is as valid as yours. Argue? yes... debate? yes... but don't put anyone with a differing persepective as a 'placed' voice of dissent and divisiveness - it's immature, playground style not worthy of you.

You are proud over the fact that you didn't have a coalition? I would call it a typical modern failed democracy. Just like the republican US is today a failed two-party system that effectively shut out any dissent voices. A coalition makes sure that the risk of 'the dictatorship of the majority' is lessened.

Argh a debate over the crisis in democracy would be an interesting one but probably not for this thread

[ChiangMaiFun]

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

Some advice. Feel free to ignore it.

If you want to sound more credible, why not start by actually addressing some of the many arguments that have been put to you over the last page or two. Point after point has been made and all you do is ignore and repeat your mantra about elections being the answer to all.

On that subject, you state that the current government doesn't want one because they would lose. Maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn't (if the last election is anything to go by, no party would be capable of winning outright). So what? What's your point? You think that because they would lose they should hold an election to prove your point?

I'll ignore it thanks... as you and others are trying to position the arguement that you are right and dissenters are not credible - a typical ruse... nice try though!

My point is that many people who I have spoken to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the current government does not have a mandate - and these people are not farmers, uneducated or Thaksin lovers - that's the mistake you are making - putting the people who believe the government is not mandated by the people into the Red bag. Nothing will be settled - not by your intellectual twists nor turns - until ordinary, decent people have 'faith' that they have had their say (rightly or wrongly). This is not to say I am unaware of the 'issues' around fairness etc.

[ChiangMaiFun]

So... here we go... now I'm a Thaksin stooge? a Red? I'm actually British and your positioning of anyone who wants an election as part of the 'mob' is purile. I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

So please don't paint me as 'infiltrating' this board with popaganda - you, sir, are coming across that way not me. I am entitled to my view along with many others and it is as valid as yours. Argue? yes... debate? yes... but don't put anyone with a differing persepective as a 'placed' voice of dissent and divisiveness - it's immature, playground style not worthy of you.

You are proud over the fact that you didn't have a coalition? I would call it a typical modern failed democracy. Just like the republican US is today a failed two-party system that effectively shut out any dissent voices. A coalition makes sure that the risk of 'the dictatorship of the majority' is lessened.

Argh a debate over the crisis in democracy would be an interesting one but probably not for this thread

haha absolutely!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Red-shirt leaders to hold meeting on Jan 15

Red-shirt leaders will hold a meeting on January 15 to discuss strategies for campaigning to topple the Democrat Part-led government, one of them said Saturday.

Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said leaders of the red-shirt movement would discuss strategies for holding a mass rally with goal to bring down the government.

The meeting would decide the venue and form of the rally.

Natthawut said the campaigns would be peaceful.

"It will be the biggest ever rally of the red-shirt people," Natthawut said.

-- The Nation 2010/1/2

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

When does the charge of treason enter the equation?

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

Very good point... includes the Yellows at the airport I presume?

[ChiangMaiFun]

Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual's want them to...

When there's a significant group of Thais selling their votes and a group of crooked politicians buying them, I dont think an election is a solution!

well...ok... good point... and your solution? ( by the way the same arguement against elections could be put forward for 100 countries) - what's the answer? (besides a true Theocracy in an ideal world).

.

The solution is as easy as it is impossible I'm afraid. Educate the masses, reinstate the entire police force, maintain law enforcement, and above all put every crooked politician in jail. Democracy in a corrupt society is the same as a snow blizzard on a hot sunny day!

Now there is a statement we could all agree to! I don't care if they are Yellow, Red or Purple - corrupt is corrupt... but the way some people position it is:

yellow is pure as snow and red is from some Luciferic hot place... ouch was that a pitchfork up my ar*e?

[h90]

Red-shirt leaders to hold meeting on Jan 15

Red-shirt leaders will hold a meeting on January 15 to discuss strategies for campaigning to topple the Democrat Part-led government, one of them said Saturday.

Natthawut Saikua, a red-shirt leader, said leaders of the red-shirt movement would discuss strategies for holding a mass rally with goal to bring down the government.

The meeting would decide the venue and form of the rally.

Natthawut said the campaigns would be peaceful.

"It will be the biggest ever rally of the red-shirt people," Natthawut said.

-- The Nation 2010/1/2

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

When does the charge of treason enter the equation?

Exactly..I don't understand why ANYBODY who incites insurrection and social disorder/chaos to bring down a government should not be arrested and jailed deported or..if they tried that elsewhere in Asia suspect that there would be swift retribution.

you know all major changes, specially in Europe were done that way.

The thing is the same as with a coup. If it is working, you are a hero and it is complete legal (as you than write the laws). If you loose you are a criminal and it is treason.

[Ricardo]

I was born and had my career in the country of the 'Mother of Parliaments' and we have never had a coalition (apart from the war) and if the government was cobbled together as this one was there would be an outcry - the cry? 'election'! 'election', 'election'. The current government don't want one because they would LOSE.

Do you remember the days of the 'Lib-Lab Pact', which was fairly close to a coalition-government, in the UK ?

But I'd agree that the two-main-party system has served the UK badly, denying the smaller parties and other minority groups any voice in government, indeed this is one reason why most Brits are so switched-off by politics these days.

[Dustybin]

The thread title "bring down the government" implies some form of legitimacy of the "government".

Abisits geremandered, contrived at gunpoint junta government is quite illegitimate and illegal.

This will remain the case untill the vested interests pointing the guns are shackled and the place returned to democracy via elections.

[Siripon]

The thread title "bring down the government" implies some form of legitimacy of the "government".

Abisits geremandered, contrived at gunpoint junta government is quite illegitimate and illegal.

This will remain the case untill the vested interests pointing the guns are shackled and the place returned to democracy via elections.

Don't worry, the latest date for the next election is only December 2011, it's not far away, and if the government continues with its reforms, the land tax bill is next on the agenda, the Thai people can only continue to be more and more grateful for Apisit and his clean professional ministers such as Korn and Jurin rather than the likes of Chalerm.

[jayboy]

The thread title "bring down the government" implies some form of legitimacy of the "government".

Abisits geremandered, contrived at gunpoint junta government is quite illegitimate and illegal.

This will remain the case untill the vested interests pointing the guns are shackled and the place returned to democracy via elections.

Don't worry, the latest date for the next election is only December 2011, it's not far away, and if the government continues with its reforms, the land tax bill is next on the agenda, the Thai people can only continue to be more and more grateful for Apisit and his clean professional ministers such as Korn and Jurin rather than the likes of Chalerm.

The government is certainly not illegitimate nor illegal but it does need a fresh mandate.December 2011 is in my judgement a little too distant but it's Abhisit's call.I can certainly see the argument that the country should have settled down before elections.Looking ahead the question is whether fair elections can be held - and on that there's a lot of doubt given the elite and the military's appaling record in seeking to stamp their agenda over the will of the Thai people.

[way2muchcoffee]

The government is certainly not illegitimate nor illegal but it does need a fresh mandate.December 2011 is in my judgement a little too distant but it's Abhisit's call.I can certainly see the argument that the country should have settled down before elections.Looking ahead the question is whether fair elections can be held - and on that there's a lot of doubt given the elite and the military's appaling record in seeking to stamp their agenda over the will of the Thai people.

Agreed on almost all points, including military interference. However, you have left out blatant vote buying by the PTP. Bear in mind that the two previous versions of PTP were dissolved for electoral fraud. With the looming Democrat donation case, they may face the same. Moreover the freedom to campaign without fear of violence, riots, or being blasted with bags of fermented fish must be guaranteed for all candidates from all parties. This would require a radical turnabout from the red camp. Until these issues can be worked out elections should be delayed, even if it means no elections until the end of 2011.

Edited January 19, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[animatic]

The government is certainly not illegitimate nor illegal but it does need a fresh mandate.December 2011 is in my judgement a little too distant but it's Abhisit's call.I can certainly see the argument that the country should have settled down before elections.Looking ahead the question is whether fair elections can be held - and on that there's a lot of doubt given the elite and the military's appaling record in seeking to stamp their agenda over the will of the Thai people.

Agreed on almost all points, including military interference. However, you have left out blatant vote buying by the PTP. Bear in mind that the two previous versions of PTP were dissolved for electoral fraud. With the looming Democrat donation case, they may face the same. Moreover the freedom to campaign without fear of violence, riots, or being blasted with bags of fermented fish must be guaranteed for all candidates from all parties. This would require a radical turnabout from the red camp. Until these issues can be worked out elections should be delayed, even if it means no elections until the end of 2011.

And there's the rub.

The reds want elections,

but they have no history of allowing fair and open campaigning for those elections.

In Surat Thani PTP gets an open field to campaign without hindrance.

In the North Democrats get fermented fish bombs in their faces,

or physical beatings to silence them. In Chaing mai it's even more violent.

Edited January 19, 2010 by animatic