Thaksin's Five Demands In Exchange For Peace

[caf]

it's amazing how someone so insignificant in the eyes of posters on here, and indeed in the eyes of the Thai Government can still manage to arouse such passion, maybe he is more significant that people tend to admit to. The guy is constantly in the news, he manages to belittle the current unelected government with his jaunts to cambodia, he manages to get cambodia to basically stick two fingers up to thailand, he manages to have the deputy PM running scared and called state of emergency where the red shirts meet (despite all recent protest being peaceful).

yeah he really has no bargaining power does he? well apart from one known fact that I am not prepared to mention on here

you say " it's amazing......."

what i find amazing is that every poster so far totally misses the fact that he is winning this debate. your list is factually accurate and can not be challenged.

however you will be challenged but not on any logical basis.

your last sentence is important; presumably lost on many.

caf

[caf]

None of you know what these 5 demands are or if they are even demands. And yet, there you go quickly waving your farang knows best fingers and condemning the former PM that was overthrown by a military coup. You are relying on a article published in the Nation. mmmkay, get on with your witch hunt/pogrom. Those of us that are not part of the sheep brigade will wait for the actual details.

n the meantime if you need an ecxample of what I mean by sheep, here it is;

I am really surprised just how many Thais actually support this guy following his defection to the enemy. When relations between Thailand and Cambodia are at pretty much an all time low over recent years he decides to work with the Cambodian Government as an advisor. I find that Thais in general look down on the Cambodians, so this can hardly help is popularity.

I think that he maybe negotiating from a position of power because he must have a wealth of information in his head regarding Thai governmental/security issues etc. This information could prove to be damaging to Thailand if it falls into the wrong hands.

Cheers, Rick

Cambodia is an "enemy"? Says who? people in Bangkok looking to distract the poor from their horrid state? Thailand is not at war with Cambodia, nor is Cambodia an enemy of Thailand. It was Thailand that commenced the hostile incursions into Cambodia. Not that this should bother those that need to create an enemy in a a futile attempt to find common ground. If Cambodia is an enemy, then perhaps Thailand needs to break all diplomatic relations and proceed with its phonie war and wait for the Vietnamese and Chinese tanks to roll on through Bangkok. And btw, alot of Thais look down on farangs and many farangs in TV look down on Thais.. What's the point of saying Thais look down on Cambodans?

Good post but over the head of many posters on here unfortunately.

A thread is started with no facts, and the sheep start their bashing and baiting.

caf

[Ricardo]

Thaksin will probably succeed - he is having a ball and has plenty moolah to do as he pleases.

He did have LOS running very well, orderly. Dont count him out - he has a huge following.

On his own recent statements, he is either almost broke (down to his last hundred million dollars), or totally broke (they have stolen all my life-savings), so either he doesn't have 'plenty of moolah', or he is a world-class creative truth-teller.

There are many people who want to see the poor get a better deal here, I'd number myself amongst them, but that doesn't mean many of them haven't long-ago seen through their former hero, as he roams the world in self-exile, threatening all sorts of mayhem for his former country, unless he gets his own way.

And that unmentionable fact may well turn out to be a serious problem.

[lensta]

Sad thing is, he really believes Democracy is negotiable. Like, we'll all sit down round a table and bargain over the country's future and justice. How do you bargain with a crook? He'd be better off becoming a Somali pirate - take the whole dam_n country hostage and demand your money back.

And so many people love and respect this guy?

Do you honestly think that the people he would be bagaining with aren't crooks? They are all the same, just to a lesser or greater degree.

[NADTATIDA1]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

[animatic]

A clever man who has irregular periods of irrationality under pressure.

A very bad combination in a national leader, or actually anyone in authority,

because it's sometimes hard to tell when one state starts and ends, till he is swept up in it.

Edited January 13, 2010 by animatic

[lensta]

He acts like he is negotiating from a position of strength.

That's often the way with megalomaniacs. The more tenuous their position, the more wide-ranging demands they make.

Well, I really detest the man as he has been holding Thailand hostage for years now in the manner of a terrorist, but you've got to give him some credit for having mucho grande cajones!

Well Jingthing, having read many of your posts about Thaksin, it is quite obvious that you "detest the man" but isn't it also true that Thailand or at least the Thai people have been held hostage in another way for many years. The rich and powerful determined keep the poor poor and uneducated, easier to control the masses that way. I don't think any of the players in this game are worth much as human beings but I guess the Thais don't have a great pool to choose from when it comes to their polliticians.

[Siripon]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Not so clever he could see the coup coming, though nearly everybody else did.

Eveybody sees through his silly Cambodian set-up with the 'spy' Siwalak.

Most Thais are not impressed with him working for Hun Sen, he's won no votes there and certainly lost some.

His constant claims that countries 'need' him is laughable, the latest is the Saudis invited him to sit on a board for a massive new project which will mean lots of jobs for Thais. Of course he's worried that progress in the Saudi jewelry case will lead to a lifting on visas for Thais whilst Apisit is in power.

Now he's worried he'll lose a lot of his money next month with the assets' case. But what can he do?

Violent protests will lose the reds more votes.

Persuade the coalition parties to amend the constitution? It could work, Chai Chidchorp told Thaksin to be patient, Parliament had worked out an amnesty bill- but he's a wily old man and Apisit could always pull the plug in the last resort and call an election and neither Pumjaithai or Chart Pattana want that for another year.

[Old Man River]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Starting to? There are a number of us here that actually know the man/done business with him etc. Stupid has never been the word any of us have used to describe him.

[Scott]

Let's keep remarks about Jim Jones and the red kool-aide out of this thread, along with other some of the other nasty people in the past. Hopefully, we will get a list of the demands and bring some focus to the thread.

I think the majority of posters here have a caring attitude toward the people and the country and really don't want bad things for Thailand. The disagreement seems to be with who and how will bring this about.

[NADTATIDA1]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Starting to? There are a number of us here that actually know the man/done business with him etc. Stupid has never been the word any of us have used to describe him.

I never said he was stupid did i now!

And you have stated that you actually know the man/done business with him etc,does this mean you have a better perception than others on TV?

[geriatrickid]

On that point, GK, seems like you and Jayboy are in complete agreement. Must be a fun party....

Don't know Jayboy, but if he has cold beer and a bevy of beauties, I will gladly be at the party

BTW, despite your only being a member since Jan. 5, you seem to be quite passionate about this subject. It's wonderful that a newcomer has such a strong grasp of the forum and a knolwedge of its members. It's as if you were here in a previous life.

[animatic]

When we ignore the past in comparison to the present,

we can't make logical extrapolations towards the future.

Not all comparisons are valid, but many are, and discerning

between possible futures, is called learning from past mistakes,

or learning from history.

Cults of personality certainly can have much greater affects on those around them

than basically less personality driven groups of similar sizes.

Especially when the go off the rails badly.

Typically leaders of Cults Of Personality get swept up in their own power trips

and are prone to making grandiose demands and statements, as if from a position of actual power,

and also tend to not have much regard for their followers safety when trying to realize their grand aims.

Having groups of people respond to your every statement is a heady brew that many can not handle

in an even handed manner, this is why so many falter 'on the way to the top', like in 'The Peter Principle'.

Most humans can only rise so far, and then repeatedly fall back to their maximum level of competence.

Some rise so far beyond their limits, from lucky, or likely unlucky, circumstances, and then that fall is so

much farther and deeper, that they can't deal with such a displacement or misalignment of aims to ego.

To quote ;

Geroge Santayana :

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Aldous Huxley:

" The charm of history and its enigmatic lesson consist in the fact that, from age to age,

nothing changes and yet everything is completely different."

Ambrose Bierce:

"HISTORY, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant,

which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools."

E. L. Doctorow:

"History is the present. That's why every generation writes it anew.

But what most people think of as history is its end product, myth."

George Bernard Shaw:

"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future."

H. G. Wells:

"History is a race between education and catastrophe."

Karl Marx:

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."

Edited January 13, 2010 by animatic

[tonywebster]

it's amazing how someone so insignificant in the eyes of posters on here, and indeed in the eyes of the Thai Government can still manage to arouse such passion, maybe he is more significant that people tend to admit to. The guy is constantly in the news, he manages to belittle the current unelected government with his jaunts to cambodia, he manages to get cambodia to basically stick two fingers up to thailand, he manages to have the deputy PM running scared and called state of emergency where the red shirts meet (despite all recent protest being peaceful).

yeah he really has no bargaining power does he? well apart from one known fact that I am not prepared to mention on here

you say " it's amazing......."

what i find amazing is that every poster so far totally misses the fact that he is winning this debate. your list is factually accurate and can not be challenged.

however you will be challenged but not on any logical basis.

your last sentence is important; presumably lost on many.

caf

It appears the only challenge I got was for going off topic, how dare I discuss thaksin in a thread about thaksin? whatever was I thinking?

[rixalex]

The five demands are the restoration of the suspended 1997 charter, the blanket amnesty to political offenders under the provisions of the 2007 Constitution, all rival camps to stop activities after the election outcome, the House dissolution and the honest and fair balloting.

What is so wrong about these 5 items?

Item number one is wrong because the 1997 charter had been thoroughly abused and shown to be flawed. If the current one isn't to your liking then fine, campaign for a new one, don't campaign for a return to the one that you yourself corrupted.

Item number two is wrong because calls for amnesties should in my opinion never come from those who have commited the crime they propose being white-washed. If independent bodies want to suggest it then fine. I'd still be completely against it, but i might actually believe that it was being suggested for some sort of greater good, rather than simply for the purpose of getting oneself off scott-free from crimes commited.

Item number three is wrong because it attempts to muzzle free speech. Rallies and political gatherings play an important role in democracy, providing of course they are peaceful.

Item number four calls for house dissolution - and why do we need that? Abhsisit came to power in the same system that Somchai and Samak before him did. It's my feeling that most think that Abhisit is doing a reasonable job. Could he be doing better? "Yes" Is there anyone out there ready to step up and do a better job right at this moment? "Probably not". So let him get on with doing his job. Elections will come around soon enough.

Item number five is correct, but we all know is not going to happen for a very long time. There needs to be some fundamental changes to the whole system. Fine to aspire to it, but optimistic to expect it, and inappropriate for one who abused it to his own advantage to now be demanding it.

Again, Mr. Thaksin has demonstrated his superb political skills and shown up the present government.

Yes, the man is clearly a genius of the highest order.

[scorecard]

He acts like he is negotiating from a position of strength.

That's often the way with megalomaniacs. The more tenuous their position, the more wide-ranging demands they make.

Well, I really detest the man as he has been holding Thailand hostage for years now in the manner of a terrorist, but you've got to give him some credit for having mucho grande cajones!

Well Jingthing, having read many of your posts about Thaksin, it is quite obvious that you "detest the man" but isn't it also true that Thailand or at least the Thai people have been held hostage in another way for many years. The rich and powerful determined keep the poor poor and uneducated, easier to control the masses that way. I don't think any of the players in this game are worth much as human beings but I guess the Thais don't have a great pool to choose from when it comes to their polliticians.

Quote from above: ".....I don't think any of the players in this game are worth much as human beings but I guess the Thais don't have a great pool to choose from when it comes to their polliticians. ...."

It's true that Thais don't currently have a great pool (capable, credible, honest, sincere) to choose from, because most parties are just 'boys clubs' where you pay your deposit and therefore get the right (sic) to get your fingers into various bags of money, and do so without hesitation and without morals.

But analyse this a bit further. There are in fact many highly capable honest and sincere Thais who would like to contribute to the development of Thailand with a better picture of equality, equal opportunity for education, equal justice, sharing of the wealth, etc., but none of these people will stand for election. Why, simple, they don't want to be associated in any way with what amounts to gangs of thieves and thugs.

I believe that we are quite possibly starting to see the start of a sea change which will start the demise of these gangs of thieves and thugs and will also see the birth of a better quality of politicians and parties.

I believe Abhisit and Korn are the start of the change. Sure they were both raised with a silver spoon in their mouths but they are trying to get the whole situation into a better picture. Korn just won two international awards for his finance/economic policies, and he showed his integrity by not accepting any form of handout from Thai International.

The day will come when the new parties start to emerge and people will flock to them leaving the old parties with no supporters. It will happen, not tomorrow but in the foreseeable future, because the middle classes are becoming more savvy and more demanding and, like the history of every democracy, the middle classes will be the force which ultimately demands and achieves change.

[Old Man River]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Starting to? There are a number of us here that actually know the man/done business with him etc. Stupid has never been the word any of us have used to describe him.

I never said he was stupid did i now!

And you have stated that you actually know the man/done business with him etc,does this mean you have a better perception than others on TV?

Don't continue to take my comments personally. A disagreement of a comment is not meant as a personal attack.

I think you missed my point. I never said you said that he was stupid. Your comment was that you "sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man" and I responded saying not starting to, but rather most already know he is a very clever man (and those that actually do know him - and there are many - would never ever make this mistake).

Do I have a better perception than others on TV? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How about you?

[kiwiinasia]

It kinda reminds how sarah (I can see russia) palin is still in the news here in the united states, if you havent heard she is working for FOX(fair and balanced entertainment)news channel. Cambodia is to be taken seriously? I think the current government has handled everything well-giving him very little attention, like Palin the media is what keeps him going and money on his part. If the current government would just take his money and then offer free cell phone cards to the country folks all would be well. Its kinda interesting that the same people who like thaksin, would probably say they thought mr. bush was one of the best leaders the western world has seen, or think palin would be a great future president.

Yes Sarah is sooo relevant to the debate.

Just because your prejudices against conservatives overwhelms your ability to think does not mean it needs to be thrust onto Thai politics too.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

To me it is totally relevant. I really dislike both of them, Palin and Thaksin, yet will avidly scan the news to read up about them. They both fascinate me (and millions of people) because of their divisiveness, propensity to lie, how they have created a cult of personality, their media savvy (twittering and facebook) and how much passion they raise amongst both supporters and detractors. I love to hate them. It's a sickness!

[hammered]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Not so clever he could see the coup coming, though nearly everybody else did.

Eveybody sees through his silly Cambodian set-up with the 'spy' Siwalak.

Most Thais are not impressed with him working for Hun Sen, he's won no votes there and certainly lost some.

His constant claims that countries 'need' him is laughable, the latest is the Saudis invited him to sit on a board for a massive new project which will mean lots of jobs for Thais. Of course he's worried that progress in the Saudi jewelry case will lead to a lifting on visas for Thais whilst Apisit is in power.

Now he's worried he'll lose a lot of his money next month with the assets' case. But what can he do?

Violent protests will lose the reds more votes.

Persuade the coalition parties to amend the constitution? It could work, Chai Chidchorp told Thaksin to be patient, Parliament had worked out an amnesty bill- but he's a wily old man and Apisit could always pull the plug in the last resort and call an election and neither Pumjaithai or Chart Pattana want that for another year.

Considering who he has stuffed into his party I doubt Thaksin wants too much success in the Saudi investigation after all there are pics around.

Feb 26 is what it is all about.

The points you make are all spot on barring maybe Saudi investigation progress.

Those who hailed the great by-election victory in Sri-Saket are noticeable in their comment on the PTP Prachinburi disaster after investing a lot and the narrow win in supposedly red Mahasarakham where BJT hardly bothered to campaign.

Thaksin's biggest problem may be that people tire of all the conflict. He needs the reds to keep people poltiicised but do they bring in as many as they turn off? Political conflict hits the poor too and they arent so stupid as to know this. It is just a matter of what way they will read stability coming from. The military after seeming so divided a few months ago suddenly also seem more confident as a unified body.

[Jingthing]

To me it is totally relevant. I really dislike both of them, Palin and Thaksin, yet will avidly scan the news to read up about them. They both fascinate me (and millions of people) because of their divisiveness, propensity to lie, how they have created a cult of personality, their media savvy (twittering and facebook) and how much passion they raise amongst both supporters and detractors. I love to hate them. It's a sickness!

You make a fair point. About the twitter thing.

[Chicog]

Are we to assume that one of the five demands is that the man wants his money back?

Perhaps one of the problems behind all this is that there is an awful lot of evidence that says it doesn't actually belong to him.

I.e. that he pocketed cash from various corrupt deals, tax evasion, etc., whilst paying off the peasants with the yellow shirts' tax monies.

Knowing at least one of his crooked foreign friends, I can guarantee you that he's as bent as a 60 baht note (there were lots of panicky phone calls and faxes when he was deposed because of worries over a particularly lucrative arrangement).

I think the best punishment for Cambodia is to leave him there as their economic adviser. If he tries the same s**t there, I doubt we'll ever hear from him again

[Chicog]

A little reminder of the extent of the allegations:

"The civil case involves alleged conflicts of interest on the part of Thaksin and his then wife, Khunying Potjaman na Pombejra, whom public prosecutors said held shares illegally in Shin Corp. Thaksin stands accused of enriching his family's business empire through targeted government policies - which were mostly introduced in 2003 - before the Shinawatras sold all their holdings in the companies in 2006."

[NADTATIDA1]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Starting to? There are a number of us here that actually know the man/done business with him etc. Stupid has never been the word any of us have used to describe him.

I never said he was stupid did i now!

And you have stated that you actually know the man/done business with him etc,does this mean you have a better perception than others on TV?

Don't continue to take my comments personally. A disagreement of a comment is not meant as a personal attack.

I think you missed my point. I never said you said that he was stupid. Your comment was that you "sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man" and I responded saying not starting to, but rather most already know he is a very clever man (and those that actually do know him - and there are many - would never ever make this mistake).

Do I have a better perception than others on TV? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How about you?

No worries,i totally did get your point omr, lets not forget we are talking about politics here and our opinions

do differ,i do find your thoughts interesting.

The question i did put to you i think was a valid one, as you stated that you and others on this forum actually know the man or have had business dealings with him! the perception comment was solely aimed at the Thaksin situation, for your knowledge and others on this forum who have had dealings with him as you said earlier.

How about me?

It real does depend on what subject we are talking about as to the level of my perception

but i would say it is better than average!

[shagmcfet]

"amartya"

What the heck is this word supposed to mean?

This is more along the lines of desperation talk.

As the clock ticks down on his money his mind devolves

back to days when he actually HAD power.

I wonder how badly he will crack when he loses the decision?

It's the Thai word for bureaucratic power\ polity, rule by technocrats, bureaucratic elite- rather than true Thaksin (authoritarian) democracy.

Not quite.The first part of your definition of amartya is correct but the opposite is not specifically Thakin authoritarian democracy but, in the eyes of those who uphold it, any kind of genuine representative democracy.

The sad thing is that the government even allows this meglomaniac to even convey his insanity by using the media. If he would be silent maybe the government could actually get something done, but i guess that's an unrealistic dream also.

[Nio]

Too bad all the expats in prison here couldn't have their demands met

[Jingthing]

If Thaksin wasn't allowed to use the media, the red shirt's charge that the current government is like Burma would be correct.

[sabaijai]

"amartya"

What the heck is this word supposed to mean?

It means the 'semi-immortals' or 'demi-gods.'

[animatic]

So if Thaksin can't get in the Amartya Group then he wants to ruin the same.

S.O.P. for Team Thaksin.

Oh yes,

and international threats against TVF members is a big selling point for them too.

[Dap]

I sense people are starting to understand that Thaksin is a very clever man!

Starting to? There are a number of us here that actually know the man/done business with him etc. Stupid has never been the word any of us have used to describe him.

If stupid doesn't work for you, how about "megalomaniacal"????