What Do You Want Pm Abhisit To Do Now?

[ChiangMaiFun]

The Democrat Party took over the Government after:

• Continuously criticising the Taksin Government for using state funds for the poor

• Refusing to take part in the elections of 2006 because they knew they would lose

• A military coup in September 2006

• A military Constitution was introduced in 2007 which decreased the democratic space

• They lost the December 2007 election

• They supported the PAD violent demonstrations which seized Government House and closed down the international airports

• The Courts were used twice to dissolve Red Shirt parties which won majorities

• Corrupt politicians were bullied and bribed by the army to change sides and support the Democrat Party

you think this is democracy?

1) How many of Thaksin's programs helped the poor in the long run or were properly funded, and how many were short term vote grabbers?

2) Why take part in something that has been corrupted so you don't have a chance?

3) What in the 2007 constitution decreased the democratic space? I thought most of the changes were to reduce the corruption space. That's what the Thaksin parties object to so much.

4) Everyone "lost" the 2007 election. Coalitions have been used to form 3 governments - Samak's, Somchai's and Abhisits.

5) Not all the Democrats supported the PAD.

6) Bullied and bribed? What about bribes to support the PPP after they campaigned that they wouldn't?

Democracy may still have a long way to go in Thailand, but submitting to mob protests is not a way forward, and returning to Thaksin is *definitely* not the way forward.

(remember that the PAD did not force the PPP to step down. The courts disbanded them, and they (ex-PPP/PTP) could have still formed a coalition after the disbanding.)

we agree that Thaksin coming back will not help and Democracy is a long way off - but you know of another country which bans a WHOLE political party because some individuals are corrupt? it's a political move - it's obvious right? imagine the USA banning the Republicans because of that wayward Governor recently - it's absurd and doesn't help democracy one jot

[anotherpeter]

• Continuously criticising the Taksin Government for using state funds for the poor

Nothing whatsoever wrong with using state funds for the poor. It's about how you do it. You can either do it for long-term sustainable benefit, or you can do it for short-term vote gains that may ultimately worsen the problem.

but you get the point? how many other countries do you know who disband WHOLE political parties because individuals are corrupt? can you imagine banning the Democrats in the USA because of Clintons misdeamenour? it's a political tool... surely you see that? Democracy (as we know it) does not exist here - it's the Wild West (or East)

But if it's a clear law in the constitution that if the executive are involved in electoral fraud that the party gets disbanded, and they get caught red handed knowing full well of the consequences, don't you think it's deserved.

Not all the PPP MPs were banned. Most of them moved to the PTP, so they could have still formed government after the disbanding.

They could have also called elections before and after disbanding. Why didn't they do that? Were they worried that they would lose?

[ChiangMaiFun]

• Continuously criticising the Taksin Government for using state funds for the poor

Nothing whatsoever wrong with using state funds for the poor. It's about how you do it. You can either do it for long-term sustainable benefit, or you can do it for short-term vote gains that may ultimately worsen the problem.

but you get the point? how many other countries do you know who disband WHOLE political parties because individuals are corrupt? can you imagine banning the Democrats in the USA because of Clintons misdeamenour? it's a political tool... surely you see that? Democracy (as we know it) does not exist here - it's the Wild West (or East)

But if it's a clear law in the constitution that if the executive are involved in electoral fraud that the party gets disbanded, and they get caught red handed knowing full well of the consequences, don't you think it's deserved.

Not all the PPP MPs were banned. Most of them moved to the PTP, so they could have still formed government after the disbanding.

They could have also called elections before and after disbanding. Why didn't they do that? Were they worried that they would lose?

I am as anti-corruption as you - but I really don't get making innocent MP's suffer because of a few individuals as particuly democratic - sue them through the courts - no problem - you can't go around banning political parties in a mature democracy - there would be none left in any country! anyway, to me, it seems we are light years away from stability - I don't care if yellow, red or green get in if it's done fairly - and I don't see that this government have got in power fairly

[Jerrytheyoung]

I expect that, next week, a government of national Unity will take over.

For the yellow shirt and red shirt leaders = same treatment. Amnesty or jails -but no double standard

Thaksin stays where he is.

Roadmap to election (including planned dissolution of Parliament) after technical issues are solved (amendment to Charter)

[animatic]

I voted new elections, IMHO the way the previous government ended (newin changing sides) was more then enough reason to call for new elections.

It is alright for Bibi Netanyahoo to be PM of Israel with only a 2ND place finish

but with the ability to bribe together a colaition, when the bigger minority party could NOT,

but in Thailand this is not OK, because what? Thailand 'special'?

Talk about double standards.

If PTP was not trusted to make a working government,

and other parties when to better offers,

that is SOP party trading in Thailands politics,

not some special anomaly ONLY to get Thaksin out.

Thaksin used the SAME tactics before that. Apples and Apples.

Thaksin bought those EXACT SAME PARTIES when he put together TRT,

but when he loses them it's suddenly unfair.

Oh the crocodile tears being shed.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I voted new elections, IMHO the way the previous government ended (newin changing sides) was more then enough reason to call for new elections.

It is alright for Bibi Netanyahoo to be PM of Israel with only a 2ND place finish

but with the ability to bribe together a colaition, when the bigger minority party could NOT,

but in Thailand this is not OK, because what? Thailand 'special'?

Talk about double standards.

If PTP was not trusted to make a working government,

and other parties when to better offers,

that is SOP party trading in Thailands politics,

not some special anomaly ONLY to get Thaksin out.

Thaksin used the SAME tactics before that. Apples and Apples.

Thaksin bought those EXACT SAME PARTIES when he put together TRT,

but when he loses them it's suddenly unfair.

Oh the crocodile tears being shed.

It is time to whistle the end of the playtime and we take a little of altitude.

Always the same arguments, repeated and repeated, we are not so stupid we have understood your point of view. But today the situation is overpassed: democrats and Thaksinists ....it is the past. Failed both sides

Next week, all those who have done some offences must received the same treatment.

Next week I expect the Big Boots will decide for the best of this Country.

[RickBradford]

If this was a boxing match, the ref would have stopped it long ago.

Abhisit gets pounded in the ring by Jatuporn and company, and when he goes back to his corner, the Army and police are waiting there to sandbag him again.

Nobody at all is listening to him.

[mindful]

Ineffectiveness caused by corruption fighting back against an honorable man trying to clean up the country.

Corruption in Thailand is as old as it's history and Abhisit might be an honorable and educated distinguished man, he's nothing without the elite and military, still backing him. Most of them corrupt as well and everybody knows it.

He's a puppet on a string and that.....that...is very unfortunate for the future of Thailand.

Free new elections is the only way on the path to full democracy.

Now Thailand is still ruled from behind the velvet curtains and nothing is done for the poor majority.

If the elite & military as well as the reds and yellows will accept the outcome of eventual new and free elections is a whole other scenario and remains to be seen....

This country is a mess and as long as the establishment will not accept and don't really care that there are still 40-50 million poor people out there, it will remain a mess.

Thailand will only improve with fair and proper education for all, including the poor.

LaoPo

Khun LaoPo... respectfully, please note, that strings can be pulled in 2 directions... and create, eventually... balance... or the best achievable balance at any given time.

In my humble opinion:

• There are "strings" that tie any PM (any person) to all the people in his/her nation as well as the rest of the world.
  
• It is how one pulls/and allows-or does not allow- those strings to be "pulled" that determines how much good can be achieved for all concerned.
  

My vote (option was not provided) would be for Khun Abhisit to take a bow for modeling great leadership at this pivotal time in Thailand's development. It takes more backbone/courage to hold a true course for the greatest/best long-term result for all concerned, while being berated by many from all sides; than to take short-term, impatient & reactive measures for symptom relief and/or to insure one's own position or comfort.

One can be certain, if one follows a path of truth and honor and peacful compassion, that one will receive the greatest resistance... and provide the greatest service to others.

Khun Abhisit- working to keep/protect his job as PM or get re-elected... LOL... LMAO... ROFL

My guess would be that he would LOVE to step aside...

However, I imagine that there are some pesky words in some oath of office he must have taken (privately and/or publically); regarding his duty to serve all the people of Thailand to the best of his ability... not just when it suits him, or when everyone is nice and/or all are acting respectfully toward one another or him... and that he cannot ignore such words, the way many others do ignore such words spoken "for show" as they seek their own self-serving way through life.

As a man of honor, which he has clearly proven himself to be, he can only be patient, hold a true course and act as he deems best as PM for all concerned.

His critics and/or any who do not want what is best for Thailand (and all the people of Thailand) are showing themselves for what they are.. and are sure to cause their own downfall in the long run. There is a reason that patience is considered a virtue.

I pray many are watching and learning... and that all humans would & could learn to live this kind of patience, wisdom, compassion, and courage!

I am a US citizen & live in the US. I have not seen this kind of courage and wisdom in US leadership since President Jimmy Carter was president. He was not re-elected (I sincerely doubt that he was too disappointed). He has since used his ex-president status to do some good in the world without the demands, restrictions and responsibilities of being President.

Is he perfect... innocent... surely not! Has he learned how to use the powerful to provide help to the powerless.. use the strings to create some balance in the world... I think so.

Cream rises... and in my humble opinion, the cream in this situation, honorable conduct by Khun Abhisit, deserves a standing ovation.

Khun Abhisit... please continue as you see fit, the young people of Thailand, including my nephew, are watching & learning!

[britmaveric]

Jimmy Carter is cream of the crop? :D Oh my you yanks are funny!

[rixalex]

If this was a boxing match, the ref would have stopped it long ago.

Abhisit gets pounded in the ring by Jatuporn and company, and when he goes back to his corner, the Army and police are waiting there to sandbag him again.

Nobody at all is listening to him.

At the moment i don't think it's Abhisit who is getting pounded, but the army. Of course that indirectly deals a blow to Abhisit, but he can only tell the army what he wants them to do. Anupong gives the orders to the soldiers, and if he refuses to follow Abhisit's directives, then the PM can no longer do his job. I think we must be very close to that point.

[ozzydom]

Abhisit and his Government are between a rock and a hard place, in a damned if they do and damned if they dont situation.

It must be demoralising for commanders to see their armed forces disarmed by an unruly mob, it is about time for the army to put their crack troops (marines and special forces ) in the front line and bring this situation under control or step back and let Thailand slide into a bottomless pit where mob rules.

Poo or get off the pot PM.

[losworld]

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

[way2muchcoffee]

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

Edited April 10, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[losworld]

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

Are you sure it is only "way to much coffee" and nothing else?

1) and who do you think is responsible for the commanders on the ground?

2) has to be repeated this is Thailand

3) this would show the true nature of the protest and the true allegiance of the protestors

4) ditto above

5) are you saying the gov has already offered this?

6) Ab can then sit back and have a beer

Edited April 10, 2010 by losworld

[way2muchcoffee]

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

Are you sure it is only "way to much coffee" and nothing else?

Care to argue the points, or do you prefer to make suggestions that I am an alcoholic or worse?

I will confess to nicotine and caffeine intake today though. Along with a caesar salad. The bacon must be doing my head in.

Edited April 10, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[losworld]

1) replace the Army General

2) make it clear to the redshirts that force will be used and all those not disbanding will be arrested and fined

3) inform the redshirts that the debt moratorium will be cancelled if they do not peacefully disband

OR:

4) increase the debt moratorium if they peacefully disband

5) give each of them money for transportation home plus expenses since Thak may not pay them if they disband

6) sit back and have a beer

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

2) Won't help much, but not unreasonable, and it seems they have already done this for the most part.

3) Totally inappropriate.

4) Totally inappropriate.

5) They have already done this.

6) Drunk leaders might not be such a good idea, but point taken.

Are you sure it is only "way to much coffee" and nothing else?

Care to argue the points, or do you prefer to make suggestions that I am an alcoholic or worse?

I will confess to nicotine and caffeine intake today though. Along with a caesar salad. The bacon must be doing my head in.

I was actually thinking too much sugar with a touch of MSG.

[anotherpeter]

So, nearly 1000 votes, and only 25% are in favour of government dissolution.

So there isn't much support on TVF for one of the reds main aims.

[rixalex]

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

[steven100]

Bring out the tanks !

Once tanks start rolling into the crowds of red shirts they will soon disperse !

Then get the water cannons out and give them an early Songkran !

Have the tanks fire a few over head warning shots !! that'll surely work !

And of coarse , find the leaders and put em' in jail.

THE NATION: tanks/armoured vehicles have been seen in Bkk today.

What did I say earlier ....

[yoshiwara]

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

Always the question is as dear Lenin would say is 'What is to be Done?'

The military leadership showed to be less strong than their 'iron man' image pushed out by the reds.

The coup was a peaceful one so their combat readiness untried.

What Abhisit did was read the 'riot act' in public to the army to stiffen them up.

In a war there are always setbacks.

The next step after a setback is important.

The army should know that the red target is to capture the army leadership positions for the Thaksin mafia.

Just like last time.

They shouldn't need to be pushed,

but there it is.

Abhisit understands.

So much for the poodle image.

[animatic]

Ineffectiveness caused by corruption fighting back against an honorable man trying to clean up the country.

Corruption in Thailand is as old as it's history and Abhisit might be an honorable and educated distinguished man, he's nothing without the elite and military, still backing him. Most of them corrupt as well and everybody knows it.

He's a puppet on a string and that.....that...is very unfortunate for the future of Thailand.

Free new elections is the only way on the path to full democracy.

Now Thailand is still ruled from behind the velvet curtains and nothing is done for the poor majority.

If the elite & military as well as the reds and yellows will accept the outcome of eventual new and free elections is a whole other scenario and remains to be seen....

This country is a mess and as long as the establishment will not accept and don't really care that there are still 40-50 million poor people out there, it will remain a mess.

Thailand will only improve with fair and proper education for all, including the poor.

LaoPo

Khun LaoPo... respectfully, please note, that strings can be pulled in 2 directions... and create, eventually... balance... or the best achievable balance at any given time.

In my humble opinion:

• There are "strings" that tie any PM (any person) to all the people in his/her nation as well as the rest of the world.
  
• It is how one pulls/and allows-or does not allow- those strings to be "pulled" that determines how much good can be achieved for all concerned.
  

My vote (option was not provided) would be for Khun Abhisit to take a bow for modeling great leadership at this pivotal time in Thailand's development. It takes more backbone/courage to hold a true course for the greatest/best long-term result for all concerned, while being berated by many from all sides; than to take short-term, impatient & reactive measures for symptom relief and/or to insure one's own position or comfort.

One can be certain, if one follows a path of truth and honor and peacful compassion, that one will receive the greatest resistance... and provide the greatest service to others.

Khun Abhisit- working to keep/protect his job as PM or get re-elected... LOL... LMAO... ROFL

My guess would be that he would LOVE to step aside...

However, I imagine that there are some pesky words in some oath of office he must have taken (privately and/or publically); regarding his duty to serve all the people of Thailand to the best of his ability... not just when it suits him, or when everyone is nice and/or all are acting respectfully toward one another or him... and that he cannot ignore such words, the way many others do ignore such words spoken "for show" as they seek their own self-serving way through life.

As a man of honor, which he has clearly proven himself to be, he can only be patient, hold a true course and act as he deems best as PM for all concerned.

His critics and/or any who do not want what is best for Thailand (and all the people of Thailand) are showing themselves for what they are.. and are sure to cause their own downfall in the long run. There is a reason that patience is considered a virtue.

I pray many are watching and learning... and that all humans would & could learn to live this kind of patience, wisdom, compassion, and courage!

I am a US citizen & live in the US. I have not seen this kind of courage and wisdom in US leadership since President Jimmy Carter was president. He was not re-elected (I sincerely doubt that he was too disappointed). He has since used his ex-president status to do some good in the world without the demands, restrictions and responsibilities of being President.

Is he perfect... innocent... surely not! Has he learned how to use the powerful to provide help to the powerless.. use the strings to create some balance in the world... I think so.

Cream rises... and in my humble opinion, the cream in this situation, honorable conduct by Khun Abhisit, deserves a standing ovation.

Khun Abhisit... please continue as you see fit, the young people of Thailand, including my nephew, are watching & learning!

Nominated for best first post in TVF history!!

Welcome to TVF Kuhn Mindful.

[sjaak327]

I voted new elections, IMHO the way the previous government ended (newin changing sides) was more then enough reason to call for new elections.

It is alright for Bibi Netanyahoo to be PM of Israel with only a 2ND place finish

but with the ability to bribe together a colaition, when the bigger minority party could NOT,

but in Thailand this is not OK, because what? Thailand 'special'?

Talk about double standards.

If PTP was not trusted to make a working government,

and other parties when to better offers,

that is SOP party trading in Thailands politics,

not some special anomaly ONLY to get Thaksin out.

Thaksin used the SAME tactics before that. Apples and Apples.

Thaksin bought those EXACT SAME PARTIES when he put together TRT,

but when he loses them it's suddenly unfair.

Oh the crocodile tears being shed.

I do seem to remember the PPP did manage to form a government. Normally after such a government falls apart, it is good democratic measure to call for new elections, it happens in many countries all over the world. I also seem to remember that the legitimatcy of that government was debated on these forums day in and day out. Vote buying and all kinds of other problems, now what is wrong with calling for new elections then ? If you contest an election result, it seems to me utterly strange to support a coalition that is formed based upon the exact same election result.

[4223rhodes]

So, nearly 1000 votes, and only 25% are in favour of government dissolution.

So there isn't much support on TVF for one of the reds main aims.

That's exactly why so many on TV believe foreigners should stay out of Thai politics.

[steven100]

Bring out the tanks !

Once tanks start rolling into the crowds of red shirts they will soon disperse !

Then get the water cannons out and give them an early Songkran !

Have the tanks fire a few over head warning shots !! that'll surely work !

And of coarse , find the leaders and put em' in jail.

THE NATION: tanks/armoured vehicles have been seen in Bkk today.

What did I say earlier ....

Now i take this back ... wrong information given out earlier !

' Security officer dismissed reports on Saturday that tanks were seen in Bangkok to provide protection at Privy Councillor's president Gen Prem Tinsulanonda.

The officer said that they are not tanks but armoured personnel carriers and humvees that are deployed in the capital.

Edited April 10, 2010 by steven100

[way2muchcoffee]

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

Probably.

[otherstuff1957]

Jimmy Carter is cream of the crop? Oh my you yanks are funny!

Jimmy Carter was probably the most decent, honest and honorable man to sit in the Oval Office. Though, I will admit that he was not be best president the US has had. IMHO the best modern US president was Bill Clinton.

So, will Abhisit become an honest but less than effective Jimmy Carter or will be be a wily, pragmatic Bill Clinton?

[Morch]

1) Ridiculous. The problem yesterday seems to revolve around incompetence by the commanders on the ground.

Do you not think w2mc that their incompetence was a result of not being given clear and decisive directions from the top? That was my reading.

Probably.

I seriously doubt it.

Not the "not being given clear and decisive directions from the top" part. That's probably accurate.

But the level of incompetence shown today was more due to bad training and lack of experience in such situations.

Shooting tear gas against the wind, breaking formation while trying to run a mob, indiscriminate massive shooting of rubber bullets (the list goes on...) are good indicators.

Given the numbers in the morning, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect both demonstration sites to be clear by now. That's with taking into account the level of force armed forces were allowed to use.

About that - restraint is good as long as the armed forces are seen as stronger. The minute this illusion is broken, restraint has a nasty habit of actually making things worse. Now that the security forces bluff was called, the demonstrates seem more confident and ready to take them on. This in turn will lead to either things spinning out of control or to a decisive play by the military. Not good. Perhaps a firmer hand at the out set of today's (yesterday at ThaiCom as well) action would have made the difference.

[0zz1]

Well there were some whining that Jingthing's reference to a POLL was wrong and biased.

Here's their chance to VOTE ONCE, and we can see what TVF people think of the situation.

So far lets just say, it appears 'Statistically significant'.

Vote once? That's no fun. Well I for one am voting early and frequently as they say in the Democratic stronghold of Chicago, Obama's hometown.

So far it does appear that most of the Farangs on this board are liberal European socialist CS's. Pity that.

no politics

[Miiyai46]

Dissolve parliament NOW. the situation is out of control,

we do not want more deads ( at the moment 5 persons have

been killed ) nor a coup.

[yoshiwara]

Dissolve parliament NOW. the situation is out of control,

we do not want more deads ( at the moment 5 persons have

been killed ) nor a coup.

I don't think so.

Do not dissolve parliament now or Thaksin will conclude that his deliberate escalation of violence including armed weaponry resulting in deaths will have been worth it.

The situation is not out of control.

The government and army are in control.

What is out of control is the red forces.

Thaksin is happy to action a civil war.

His target is still to install his personal mafia in the army.

He wants the army leadership for himself.

For Thaksin everybody is expendable.

But now he is in retreat.

But the red cheerleaders still bleat the same demands.

From the sidelines.

Having a wobble.