Why Is Everything Opening Up?

[Rimmer]

One heavily modified quoted reply deleted. Please note it is forbidden to modify someone else's post in your quoted reply. Please see rule number 30

[JSixpack]

it is the global economy. And that is going downhill fast because the world we have created is grossly unsustainable...........for three reasons:

1) we did not act soon enough and with a sense of urgency to curb population growth (too many people are putting too much stress on the life systems of the planet with more to come)

2) we did nothing to move the economy away from dependency on fossil fuels (this is leading to climate change and eventually to social chaos on a scale we have never witnessed)

3) we promoted the globalization of the economy (something that has clearly failed).

This simplistic, brainwashed theory makes it obvious that you refuse to believe, in face of the evidence, that Pattaya is growing and doing pretty well because to admit it would be to contradict your anti-globalist, leftist political beliefs.

You can find your assumptions, hence your conclusions from them, shown wrong here (part 1 of 4):

[/url][/url][/url][/url]

To this, we note that you don't like change in Pattaya since the 70s and 80s. Hence you wish it would not progress further.

Now then your apocalyptic prophecies (wishes, really) can be answered thus:

Will continue to grow? No doubt............more concrete coffins destined to become vacant coffins will continue to go up

And after their initial vacancies, become owned and occupied.

More malls destined to become vacant malls will go up

But against your wishes become popular and successful.

More bars destined to go under will go up

And even more will be successful enough.

More restaurants destined to go under will go up

But, sadly, defy your self-interested prophecy and become successful enough.

And more concrete coffins, malls, bars and restaurants that are here now will go under.

Did you forget you said this already? Or is this your peroration?

The fact is that it has already grown beyond its best years (70s and 80s).

Rather, beyond its other good years and has gotten even better--overall--as Ulysses noted.

And that growth has not been good. It is unsustainable, and it has already ruined the place.

And it has been good and quite sustainable (see your wrong political/economic assumptions). It's improved the place--overall.

But some people have no idea how good it used to be, so they have no reference point from which to assess whether it is better or worse now.

But others do, and most agree that on balance it's better. I love TukCom and Central Festival. I like walking on Walking Street w/o dodging cars and mad bikers, esp. idiot farangs showing off on rented choppers. I like all that new development around Soi Buakaew. Sometimes I'd prefer to go to Oasis Go-Go than all the way down to Walking Street. Third Road's got a lot of good new stuff, too--take Cherry's for example.

Others are locked into a growth mentality (all growth is good).

In fact, nobody's locked into such a mentality. Just a fantasy of yours.

Others are simply wanting to make a buck off of a real estate Titanic.

Good on 'em if they want to make a buck off real estate cycles. Real estate markets are just as cyclical as any other. You want to join a static socialist worker's paradise, North Korea & Cuba are waitin' fer ya.

I think, Tejas, most in this thread are tired of your Nostradamus posturings. Maybe you should just make yourself an End Of The World Is Nigh sign to carry and join Glitterman.

Edited June 11, 2010 by JSixpack

[LennyW]

Well said JSixpack, well said indeed!!

[Tejas]

While it isn't specifically a "Thai" problem, as they seem to have a low population growth ( I never see Thais with very large families about ), you are right about population growth being the downfall of humanity. This is the "elephant in the room", as all these high powered meetings about "climate change" never admit as long as there is unrestricted population growth there is no hope of stopping it. Soon, there will be wars for access to fresh water, and hordes of poor immigrants fleeing their devestated homelands will, if not stopped, destroy our comfortable western way of life ( let's all have 3 cars and a giant tv in every room! ).

People should always remember that it isn't going to be the "end of the world", just the end of humans. The planet will survive quite nicely, thank you.

JR to Thaibeachlover (having problems with the new system here):

The point I was trying to make is that Thailand--and virtually all countries on the planet--has already gone way past a sustainable population level.

So, while it is good that Thailand's fertility rate is down, a population problem exists. And it will get worse (the population continues to grow).

I agree that climate change is a major problem (oopps here come the global warming isn't real Trolls again).........and there is not much hope of stopping it unless we radically reduce population levels (not just reduce population growth rates) and move away from our reliance on fossil fuels.

I agree that we are set for water wars.

I agree that we are set for mass migrations (unprecedented).

I agree that the earth does not need us

But we can't ask the people in the developed world to live like dogs.

They have a right to try to improve the quality of their lives.

To do that..........economic activity must increase (unfortunate reality)..........the only way to make that happen without destroying the planet is to move away from fossil fuel use.

There are other ways............but no need to discuss everything here.

It is interesting that some posters want me to carry a doom and gloom sign around...........in fact, I am presenting very positive solutions to our challenges.

In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on.

Others, like the people who think I should carry around that sign, are clueless...........that can't even see THE PROBLEM.

The first step to solving any problem is recognizing that it exists.

Ignoring problems, like most Thais do, solves nothing...........now, apparently, most farangs are adopting the Thai way: hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

I do wish I had a franchise on rose colored glasses..........might make a fortune advertising on ThaiVisa.

[thaibeachlovers]

While it isn't specifically a "Thai" problem, as they seem to have a low population growth ( I never see Thais with very large families about ), you are right about population growth being the downfall of humanity. This is the "elephant in the room", as all these high powered meetings about "climate change" never admit as long as there is unrestricted population growth there is no hope of stopping it. Soon, there will be wars for access to fresh water, and hordes of poor immigrants fleeing their devestated homelands will, if not stopped, destroy our comfortable western way of life ( let's all have 3 cars and a giant tv in every room! ).

People should always remember that it isn't going to be the "end of the world", just the end of humans. The planet will survive quite nicely, thank you.

JR to Thaibeachlover (having problems with the new system here):

The point I was trying to make is that Thailand--and virtually all countries on the planet--has already gone way past a sustainable population level.

So, while it is good that Thailand's fertility rate is down, a population problem exists. And it will get worse (the population continues to grow).

I agree that climate change is a major problem (oopps here come the global warming isn't real Trolls again).........and there is not much hope of stopping it unless we radically reduce population levels (not just reduce population growth rates) and move away from our reliance on fossil fuels.

I agree that we are set for water wars.

I agree that we are set for mass migrations (unprecedented).

I agree that the earth does not need us

But we can't ask the people in the developed world to live like dogs.

They have a right to try to improve the quality of their lives.

To do that..........economic activity must increase (unfortunate reality)..........the only way to make that happen without destroying the planet is to move away from fossil fuel use.

There are other ways............but no need to discuss everything here.

It is interesting that some posters want me to carry a doom and gloom sign around...........in fact, I am presenting very positive solutions to our challenges.

In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on.

Others, like the people who think I should carry around that sign, are clueless...........that can't even see THE PROBLEM.

The first step to solving any problem is recognizing that it exists.

Ignoring problems, like most Thais do, solves nothing...........now, apparently, most farangs are adopting the Thai way: hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

I do wish I had a franchise on rose colored glasses..........might make a fortune advertising on ThaiVisa.

Wow, we've really moved away from the Topic, but have to agree with you. However, I don't think there is any hope for humanity to change sufficiently to save itself. I'm just gratefull I have no children to suffer.

Now, to get back to the topic- to those that think business people know what they are doing-LOL. They are the reason why the earth is in deep doo, as they continue their relentless pursuit of riches. When wrongly located monstrocities such as Avenues and Central Festival destroyed a perfectly nice hotel and much loved bar beers, it was because the owners had got sucked into the really stupid idea that Pattaya was going to become the Monaco of Thailand, or some such tripe being purveyed by City Hall years ago.

As a result of that rubbish ( garbage in garbage out ), we now have a crappy beach and a broken walkway with a few flash resorts and hotels, and a Bangkok style shopping mall. I've yet to see the celebrity crowd arriving, and if they did, one stroll along Beach Road would have them fleeing in their private jets, back to Dubai or some other poncy ruined place where they can drive around in their stretch limos telling each other how brilliant they all are on their trendy ipads!

No doubt Central Festival's owners have deep pockets, but it's going to take more than a few Thai weekend shoppers to save it.

[LennyW]

"In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on."

Please let the rest of us know then??

By the time Thailand and the rest of the world reaches the critical mass and the rest of the hysteria you are preaching, we will all be well processed worm food!!!

Did anyone do anything to smooth your entry into this life, and what steps have you taken to ensure the same "mistakes" if that is what they are, will not be repeated?

You use far too much cliche words, "climate change" "xenophobia" "social engineering" - well here's one for you, PARANOIA, and i am not speaking about the rock classic from Deep Purple!!! - i am referring to you, please get some serious medical help before you miss the end of civilisation as you foretell!!! although i dont think we are pressed for time on that one!!

[Zstarx]

While it isn't specifically a "Thai" problem, as they seem to have a low population growth ( I never see Thais with very large families about ), you are right about population growth being the downfall of humanity. This is the "elephant in the room", as all these high powered meetings about "climate change" never admit as long as there is unrestricted population growth there is no hope of stopping it. Soon, there will be wars for access to fresh water, and hordes of poor immigrants fleeing their devestated homelands will, if not stopped, destroy our comfortable western way of life ( let's all have 3 cars and a giant tv in every room! ).

People should always remember that it isn't going to be the "end of the world", just the end of humans. The planet will survive quite nicely, thank you.

JR to Thaibeachlover (having problems with the new system here):

The point I was trying to make is that Thailand--and virtually all countries on the planet--has already gone way past a sustainable population level.

So, while it is good that Thailand's fertility rate is down, a population problem exists. And it will get worse (the population continues to grow).

I agree that climate change is a major problem (oopps here come the global warming isn't real Trolls again).........and there is not much hope of stopping it unless we radically reduce population levels (not just reduce population growth rates) and move away from our reliance on fossil fuels.

I agree that we are set for water wars.

I agree that we are set for mass migrations (unprecedented).

I agree that the earth does not need us

But we can't ask the people in the developed world to live like dogs.

They have a right to try to improve the quality of their lives.

To do that..........economic activity must increase (unfortunate reality)..........the only way to make that happen without destroying the planet is to move away from fossil fuel use.

There are other ways............but no need to discuss everything here.

It is interesting that some posters want me to carry a doom and gloom sign around...........in fact, I am presenting very positive solutions to our challenges.

In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on.

Others, like the people who think I should carry around that sign, are clueless...........that can't even see THE PROBLEM.

The first step to solving any problem is recognizing that it exists.

Ignoring problems, like most Thais do, solves nothing...........now, apparently, most farangs are adopting the Thai way: hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

I do wish I had a franchise on rose colored glasses..........might make a fortune advertising on ThaiVisa.

Wow, we've really moved away from the Topic, but have to agree with you. However, I don't think there is any hope for humanity to change sufficiently to save itself. I'm just gratefull I have no children to suffer.

Now, to get back to the topic- to those that think business people know what they are doing-LOL. They are the reason why the earth is in deep doo, as they continue their relentless pursuit of riches. When wrongly located monstrocities such as Avenues and Central Festival destroyed a perfectly nice hotel and much loved bar beers, it was because the owners had got sucked into the really stupid idea that Pattaya was going to become the Monaco of Thailand, or some such tripe being purveyed by City Hall years ago.

As a result of that rubbish ( garbage in garbage out ), we now have a crappy beach and a broken walkway with a few flash resorts and hotels, and a Bangkok style shopping mall. I've yet to see the celebrity crowd arriving, and if they did, one stroll along Beach Road would have them fleeing in their private jets, back to Dubai or some other poncy ruined place where they can drive around in their stretch limos telling each other how brilliant they all are on their trendy ipads!

No doubt Central Festival's owners have deep pockets, but it's going to take more than a few Thai weekend shoppers to save it.

No, No it's going to grow, it's just going to take 25 years

Anyone who thinks Pattaya is going to grow whilst the Euro and Pound are so week are kidding themselves IMHO

[thaibeachlovers]

it is the global economy. And that is going downhill fast because the world we have created is grossly unsustainable...........for three reasons:

1) we did not act soon enough and with a sense of urgency to curb population growth (too many people are putting too much stress on the life systems of the planet with more to come)

2) we did nothing to move the economy away from dependency on fossil fuels (this is leading to climate change and eventually to social chaos on a scale we have never witnessed)

3) we promoted the globalization of the economy (something that has clearly failed).

This simplistic, brainwashed theory makes it obvious that you refuse to believe, in face of the evidence, that Pattaya is growing and doing pretty well because to admit it would be to contradict your anti-globalist, leftist political beliefs.

You can find your assumptions, hence your conclusions from them, shown wrong here (part 1 of 4):

[/url]

To this, we note that you don't like change in Pattaya since the 70s and 80s. Hence you wish it would not progress further.

Now then your apocalyptic prophecies (wishes, really) can be answered thus:

Will continue to grow? No doubt............more concrete coffins destined to become vacant coffins will continue to go up

And after their initial vacancies, become owned and occupied.

More malls destined to become vacant malls will go up

But against your wishes become popular and successful.

More bars destined to go under will go up

And even more will be successful enough.

More restaurants destined to go under will go up

But, sadly, defy your self-interested prophecy and become successful enough.

And more concrete coffins, malls, bars and restaurants that are here now will go under.

Did you forget you said this already? Or is this your peroration?

The fact is that it has already grown beyond its best years (70s and 80s).

Rather, beyond its other good years and has gotten even better--overall--as Ulysses noted.

And that growth has not been good. It is unsustainable, and it has already ruined the place.

And it has been good and quite sustainable (see your wrong political/economic assumptions). It's improved the place--overall.

But some people have no idea how good it used to be, so they have no reference point from which to assess whether it is better or worse now.

But others do, and most agree that on balance it's better. I love TukCom and Central Festival. I like walking on Walking Street w/o dodging cars and mad bikers, esp. idiot farangs showing off on rented choppers. I like all that new development around Soi Buakaew. Sometimes I'd prefer to go to Oasis Go-Go than all the way down to Walking Street. Third Road's got a lot of good new stuff, too--take Cherry's for example.

Others are locked into a growth mentality (all growth is good).

In fact, nobody's locked into such a mentality. Just a fantasy of yours.

Others are simply wanting to make a buck off of a real estate Titanic.

Good on 'em if they want to make a buck off real estate cycles. Real estate markets are just as cyclical as any other. You want to join a static socialist worker's paradise, North Korea & Cuba are waitin' fer ya.

I think, Tejas, most in this thread are tired of your Nostradamus posturings. Maybe you should just make yourself an End Of The World Is Nigh sign to carry and join Glitterman.

Just because Pattaya is growing, does not mean it is doing well.

The crime rate is up, the roads are more congested than ever ( despite lack of tour buses ), income for the workers is obviously well down, infrastructure has not improved in 18 years, Bali Hai pier is disintegrating, More and more new shops, hotels and bars open without customers, scams continue galore, increasing numbers of desperate hawkers try to sell pointless trinkets to an ever poorer and diminishing tourist population, and the baht bus catastrophe continues unrelentingly.

As for the Beach Rd walkway- what should be the jewel in Pattaya's crown is a crumbling, disgusting wreck, full of holes and broken lamp bases.

Not everyone thinks change is in of itself a "good" thing. Thailand is a large country, with many beaches to ruin, so why try to change Pattaya? Jomptien has a much better beach, better roads, and more space to put up all the malls you like. If City Hall was competent enough to put in a proper transportation system between Pattaya and Jomptien, the latter could become the place for all the modernist change artists, and Pattaya could remain a place for mongers. Win win.

No sane person thinks the only alternatives are madman capitalism constantly tearing down the old, only to put up more and more garish awful monstrocities over the remains of once beautiful beaches, and North Korea.

If someone tried to build something that destroyed New York's Central park there would be an uproar, Well, Pattaya as it was in the 90's had a charm all of it's own ( to those that had eyes to see ) that deserved to be preserved, but, of course, money comes before mongers, or at least that what's they think till the monger's money stops, and there's thousands of low paid workers unemployed, and wearing red shirts in the streets.

[Tejas]

"In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on."

Please let the rest of us know then??

By the time Thailand and the rest of the world reaches the critical mass and the rest of the hysteria you are preaching, we will all be well processed worm food!!!

Did anyone do anything to smooth your entry into this life, and what steps have you taken to ensure the same "mistakes" if that is what they are, will not be repeated?

You use far too much cliche words, "climate change" "xenophobia" "social engineering" - well here's one for you, PARANOIA, and i am not speaking about the rock classic from Deep Purple!!! - i am referring to you, please get some serious medical help before you miss the end of civilisation as you foretell!!! although i dont think we are pressed for time on that one!!

I like you too.

By the way, ignoring reality........engaging in delusional thinking....is a serious mental disease.

Climate change, xenophobia, social engineering, and the Reds burning down some of Bangkok are all real.

I did not make any of it up.

It is hard for some people to face reality. I understand that.

If you think Pattaya will just get better the more it grows.......well, I can understand that type of thinking (very common actually).

You operate under the following assumption: All growth is good.

Unlike you, I operate under the following assumption: There are limits to growth.

That is one reason we disagree.

[LennyW]

I am willing to bet, that you as an individual, actually consider an erection to be some form of equitable personal growth!!

[thaibeachlovers]

"In other words, I believe we can do something to stop the insane trajectory we are on."

Please let the rest of us know then??

By the time Thailand and the rest of the world reaches the critical mass and the rest of the hysteria you are preaching, we will all be well processed worm food!!!

Did anyone do anything to smooth your entry into this life, and what steps have you taken to ensure the same "mistakes" if that is what they are, will not be repeated?

You use far too much cliche words, "climate change" "xenophobia" "social engineering" - well here's one for you, PARANOIA, and i am not speaking about the rock classic from Deep Purple!!! - i am referring to you, please get some serious medical help before you miss the end of civilisation as you foretell!!! although i dont think we are pressed for time on that one!!

Not trying to be combative, but surely you, or your family members have children. Do they or their decendents not deserve a life too?

When overfishing of cod turns the Baltic Sea into an anaerobic algal bloom, or Lima has no water because the glaciers have vanished, will you still be saying it's all paranoia?

The earth will continue on for millions of years, but without homo sapiens, who will have joined the dinosaurs in extinction, but unlike them, could have done something to prevent it.

Now, back to the topic....... please.

[kevozman1]

I think you guys are getting way too deep into this. Places built on

tourism alone are vunerable at the best of times. Who knows in 10

years time Pattaya could be a major international holiday destination.

It could also be diminished or even a ghost town it other destinations

offering the same scene opened and become successful.

[jori]

than you or I, has a positive view on the future. Remember the hotels and shopping areas are not being built with Government hand-outs, they are being built with somebodies cash. The cynic will reply " Blah blah blah, rose tinted glasses no hope etc etc ". However, not all Thai businessmen are fools, far from it, and some of the smartest are quietly buying land and planning for a better future for the area. I for one hope they are right...............I like it here.

Perhaps not government cash more like the K bank cash,I bet that bank are so pissed off being the biggest landlords in all of Asia.

If gambling is eventually allowed in this region you can bet your bottom dollar surrounding countries will do it quicker ,smarter and better than Thailand

[JSixpack]

Just because Pattaya is growing, does not mean it is doing well.

Your definition of doing well doesn't jibe with economic reality.

The crime rate is up, the roads are more congested than ever ( despite lack of tour buses ), income for the workers is obviously well down, infrastructure has not improved in 18 years, Bali Hai pier is disintegrating

Yawn. Pattaya has always been a mess. It's the corrupt, inefficient government that's allowed it the freedom to become a desirable holiday destination for tourists who appreciate its particular Third Wold charms.

A larger local population and more tourists mean more crime in absolute numbers. I don't think you have any figures showing the rate has increased significantly over, say, Bangkok's rate. Anyway, most of the crime is Thai-on-Thai, in the wee hours.

And it's utter nonsense to say the infrastructure hasn't improved: the roads are greatly improved, new roads have been built (3rd rd. an outstanding example, and the new road from the airport), cables have been buried (three times or so), lights are up, stop lights are much better, the walkway etc. was built.

You don't have a point here.

More and more new shops, hotels and bars open without customers,

Oh, the fallacy of the "downward spiral." You been listening to too much hysteria. It's the low season, there've been some political problems, and a bit of recession. Nothing that Pattaya hasn't seen many times before--and gone right through it to become bigger and better than ever. Wish I had a baht for every time I've heard that "last nail in the coffin" crap.

scams continue galore, increasing numbers of desperate hawkers try to sell pointless trinkets to an ever poorer and diminishing tourist population, and the baht bus catastrophe continues unrelentingly.

Hysteria aside, so what else is new? Way it's always been, pal. You want a nanny state w/ all under control, you know where to go. And buzz off w/ this judgment what people ought to buy. Somebody has always liked those pointless (to you) trinkets, and if they want them, what's it to you, Mr. Central Economic Planner? Seems you don't understand economic freedom at all.

As for the Beach Rd walkway- what should be the jewel in Pattaya's crown is a crumbling, disgusting wreck, full of holes and broken lamp bases.

Should be--to whom? Lots of people don't give a shit about that walkway, me included. I never walk on it. You should have seen it before they tried to beautify it. Ain't no sidewalk in Thailand fit for walking. It's THAILAND--part of its charm is its chaos.

Not everyone thinks change is in of itself a "good" thing.

Nobody ever said that, so now you're just setting up a straw man. I ain't bitin'.

Thailand is a large country, with many beaches to ruin, so why try to change Pattaya?

You mean, leave the crappy beach as it's been for decades? OK, why not? Most people don't care to swim here anyway.

Jomptien has a much better beach, better roads, and more space to put up all the malls you like. If City Hall was competent enough to put in a proper transportation system between Pattaya and Jomptien, the latter could become the place for all the modernist change artists, and Pattaya could remain a place for mongers. Win win.

You seem stuck in some sort of childishly simple either-or binary world. Actually, both Pattaya and Jomtien can accommodate upscale development AND mongers, as Pattaya does right now. Note those fine condos in Jomtien. Go analog, pal.

No sane person thinks the only alternatives are madman capitalism constantly tearing down the old, only to put up more and more garish awful monstrocities over the remains of once beautiful beaches, and North Korea.

Economic freedom allows entrepreneurs to meet changing needs. Pattaya has changed to meet the needs of a much more diverse and larger group of tourists and brought thousands of jobs to poor Thais who otherwise wouldn't have them. So far, most tourists haven't cared that much about the beaches. If they really did, then the government , whose responsibility it is, might stop pumping waste out there. In fact, it has made some attempts to do a better job about that. But, TIT. You want pristine beaches, Pattaya's not your spot, hasn't been for decades.

If someone tried to build something that destroyed New York's Central park there would be an uproar, Well, Pattaya as it was in the 90's had a charm all of it's own ( to those that had eyes to see ) that deserved to be preserved,

It did have its charm (even w/ the dirty beaches) but "deserved" is merely a selfish opinion: why should all those Thais who now have jobs and support their families w/ those jobs, and all those Thai and foreign tourists who enjoy the new developments, be denied so's you can drink cheap beer while sitting in a thatched hut on Pattaya Beach listening to some ho's forced laughter at your jokes? That time has passed, pal. Live with it.

but, of course, money comes before mongers,

Thousands of jobs for Thais and a better local Thai economy come before mongers' cheap beer in a thatched hut near the beach w/ some ho, yes. Somebody has got to make some money, yes.

The mongers peaked out in what they could sustain. Some, then, will lose the sea view but surely will survive.

or at least that what's they think till the monger's money stops, and there's thousands of low paid workers unemployed, and wearing red shirts in the streets.

Just a little self-serving fantasy. Pattaya has provided an incredible number of new jobs since the 80s and continues to accommodate the mongers extremely well--though now the mongers might have to pay a bit more for a sea view. If they need it, they will. But I don't think sea view is their main priority, do you? Lots of mongers are perfectly content to stay over there around Soi Buakaew. And Crazy Dave's, a newer business, usually has customers.

[Tejas]

I am willing to bet, that you as an individual, actually consider an erection to be some form of equitable personal growth!!

Does anybody have a tape measure?

Seriously, your deep psychological concept that dictates your perception of growth (all growth is good) is in direct opposition to mine (there are limits to growth).

That is no doubt why we will never agree on whether growth in Pattaya is good or bad.

Think about it.

I want to see fewer people and condos and shops and roads..............more trees, parks, quality shopping areas with interesting places (not huge malls but interesting places like you see in Aspen or Taos, New Mexico, to name a few models).

I would also like to see a first class marina. So, I am not opposed to all growth. I think their is positive/quality growth and negative/crap growth.

I think cities need to be built for people, not cars and real estate agents (I am not sure real estate agents are people )

A famous scientists/philosopher Rene Dubos once said cities should never hold more than 5000 people..........more than that and they disintegrate. I agree.

Some of the best cities in the world are small...........and very nice..............clean...........interesting.

I think Pattaya-Jomtien could be similar if a nuclear bomb hit it and development could start over

[Ulysses G.]

 

I want to see fewer people and condos and shops and roads..............

I would also like to see a first class marina.   So, I am not opposed to all growth.  

What you seem to be saying is that Pattaya should be developed according to your needs. Funny, I feel exactly the same way, except instead catering to my desires. 

[Tejas]

I want to see fewer people and condos and shops and roads..............

I would also like to see a first class marina. So, I am not opposed to all growth.

What you seem to be saying is that Pattaya should be developed according to your needs. Funny, I feel exactly the same way, except instead catering to my desires.

Of course I would like to see Pattaya develop exactly like I want it to be..........but that is not what I was saying.

I was pointing out there are limits to growth..........cities are no exception.

Some of our best cities in the USA, for example, are not that large and have great city planning: Aspen, Colorado; Taos, New Mexico; Jackson Hole, Wyoming, etc. You can see the same thing in Europe.

There is a balance between people and resources............convenience is there...............beauty is there.

In Pattaya, that balance has long since gone. Perhaps that is why I liked the 80s-90s better than what we see today.

Pattaya is, of course, different from the stellar cities I listed.

What I am thinking about is proper city planning.

Imagine a much smaller (far less crowded) city that is clean with proper infrastructure, housing for all income levels, bike paths, more walking street (no cars) areas, more parks, great marina...........AND has the "seedy, exotic side" too, perhaps restricted in the "seedy, exotic development zone."

It would resemble the 80s and 90s Pattaya but with more modern facilities and far fewer people (also would still have the main attraction in place).

Is that such a bad development scheme?

What I am seeing (and perhaps other will agree) is a development scheme for cars and real estate agents..........it is a growth, growth, growth mentality.

Yes, there is the lets make Pattaya into Monaco mentality...........but you can't do that with social engineering schemes coupled with the construction of one concrete coffin building after another.

I don't think this reflects only my vision.........I think a lot of expats would love a "fun city" built for people and not cars and real estate agents.

[Ulysses G.]

I want to see fewer people and condos and shops and roads..............

I would also like to see a first class marina.   So, I am not opposed to all growth.  

What you seem to be saying is that Pattaya should be developed according to your needs. Funny, I feel exactly the same way, except instead catering to my desires.  

Of course I would like to see Pattaya develop exactly like I want it to be..........but that is not what I was saying.

Just joshing. 

[JSixpack]

I was pointing out there are limits to growth..........cities are no exception.

But, alas, based on a flawed model with convenient, simplistic assumptions.

Some of our best cities in the USA, for example, are not that large and have great city planning: Aspen, Colorado; Taos, New Mexico; Jackson Hole, Wyoming, etc. You can see the same thing in Europe.

Is this a joke? The cities you cite are in rich countries and their tourists are rich yuppies. There are few jobs there esp. for poor people, as Pattaya provides; and here tourists need not spend so much. The Pattaya model has been working well enough as it is. And it's very Asian and very Thai.

There is a balance between people and resources............convenience is there...............beauty is there.

The high price is there, well out of reach for the market to which Pattaya caters. Where're the strip bars? Way the hel_l outside o' town on the highway! And what do they charge?

In Pattaya, that balance has long since gone. Perhaps that is why I liked the 80s-90s better than what we see today.

Yawn. Most of us, esp. Thais who have jobs they wouldn't have otherwise, like Pattaya better now, for reasons explained earlier.

Pattaya is, of course, different from the stellar cities I listed.

U think?

What I am thinking about is proper city planning.

Uh-huh.

Imagine a much smaller (far less crowded) city that is clean with proper infrastructure, housing for all income levels, bike paths, more walking street (no cars) areas, more parks, great marina...........AND has the "seedy, exotic side" too, perhaps restricted in the "seedy, exotic development zone."

Imagine how many jobs that would cost and how many millions in taxpayer funds and what high prices such a city would have, just for you. Imagine the loss of personal and economic freedom as the gummint decides where you can live and work and play.

No, we ain't going there. Horrible.

It would resemble the 80s and 90s Pattaya but with more modern facilities and far fewer people (also would still have the main attraction in place).

Part of the main attraction is all over town now and most of us like it that way. So do the Thais: less competition in an area. Don't wanna travel over to the "pen" where you've decided it should be.

Is that such a bad development scheme?

Horrible, as noted. What did you plan to do w/ all the people homeless and out of work? Send them to execution squads? Cf. Bucharest urban planning, pre-fall.

What I am seeing (and perhaps other will agree) is a development scheme for cars and real estate agents..........it is a growth, growth, growth mentality.

Right. More tourists, more jobs, more products, more services, more conveniences. And you'd take that away and substitute growth of taxation, of privilege for an elite few, and of government power.

No thanks.

Yes, there is the lets make Pattaya into Monaco mentality...........but you can't do that with social engineering schemes coupled with the construction of one concrete coffin building after another.

Monaco??? Oh! Where live Paula Radcliffe, Richards Farleigh (Dragons Den), David Coulthard, Jenson Button, Roger Moore, Ringo Starr, Wafic Said, Ken Bates, Tony Ryan and Julian Lennon? Where none of us can afford to live? No comment necessary. And it would require infinitely more social engineering--of the enviro-statism sort that you hold so dear, based on false assumptions,

I don't think this reflects only my vision........

Not at all, but delusion as well. And you can always find people who would agree with your dictatorial scheme as long as they themselves don't have to pay for it.

I think a lot of expats would love a "fun city" built for people and not cars and real estate agents.

Nope. Singapore's there already. Got a big tax on cars, too. We like Pattaya pretty much as it is and where it's going, except maybe for the baht buses, but lots of people love those too.

As I suggested earlier, North Korea and Cuba might be where you're happiest. Pyonyang is a perfect, indeed a stellar example of urban planning and government control; I don't know WHY you didn't cite it:

Its the only major city that has managed to avoid turning into digusting, smoggy hellholes like Seoul, Saigon, Manila or Beijing. It has glorious wide boulevards, a beautifully clean and broad river and monumental architecture and public space that benefits the people rather than business. The Ryugyong hotel is an architectural masterpiece that is finally being completed and the Juche monument facing Kim-Il-Sung square across the Taedong is a powerful unifier of the Korean people. Transport is egalitarian and relies on the Metro and trolleybuses rather than the incessant din of scooters or Toyotas and the city is entirely free of the hideous commercial clutter that is an immediate symptom of American economic ideology.

Read more at redirecting...

OK, I'm gonna have cease enlightening before I'm banned. (Hope this post makes it thru.) No doubt the mods are getting ansy at this point and will soon close the thread. But do see my OP again. I strongly stand by it. Pattaya's doing pretty well, overall.

I see BOSCo's is being renovated for a new business even now.

Edited June 12, 2010 by JSixpack

[Zstarx]

I was pointing out there are limits to growth..........cities are no exception.

But, alas, based on a flawed model with convenient, simplistic assumptions.

Some of our best cities in the USA, for example, are not that large and have great city planning: Aspen, Colorado; Taos, New Mexico; Jackson Hole, Wyoming, etc. You can see the same thing in Europe.

Is this a joke? The cities you cite are in rich countries and their tourists are rich yuppies. There are few jobs there esp. for poor people, as Pattaya provides; and here tourists need not spend so much. The Pattaya model has been working well enough as it is. And it's very Asian and very Thai.

There is a balance between people and resources............convenience is there...............beauty is there.

The high price is there, well out of reach for the market to which Pattaya caters. Where're the strip bars? Way the hel_l outside o' town on the highway! And what do they charge?

In Pattaya, that balance has long since gone. Perhaps that is why I liked the 80s-90s better than what we see today.

Yawn. Most of us, esp. Thais who have jobs they wouldn't have otherwise, like Pattaya better now, for reasons explained earlier.

Pattaya is, of course, different from the stellar cities I listed.

U think?

What I am thinking about is proper city planning.

Uh-huh.

Imagine a much smaller (far less crowded) city that is clean with proper infrastructure, housing for all income levels, bike paths, more walking street (no cars) areas, more parks, great marina...........AND has the "seedy, exotic side" too, perhaps restricted in the "seedy, exotic development zone."

Imagine how many jobs that would cost and how many millions in taxpayer funds and what high prices such a city would have, just for you. Imagine the loss of personal and economic freedom as the gummint decides where you can live and work and play.

No, we ain't going there. Horrible.

It would resemble the 80s and 90s Pattaya but with more modern facilities and far fewer people (also would still have the main attraction in place).

Part of the main attraction is all over town now and most of us like it that way. So do the Thais: less competition in an area. Don't wanna travel over to the "pen" where you've decided it should be.

Is that such a bad development scheme?

Horrible, as noted. What did you plan to do w/ all the people homeless and out of work? Send them to execution squads? Cf. Bucharest urban planning, pre-fall.

What I am seeing (and perhaps other will agree) is a development scheme for cars and real estate agents..........it is a growth, growth, growth mentality.

Right. More tourists, more jobs, more products, more services, more conveniences. And you'd take that away and substitute growth of taxation, of privilege for an elite few, and of government power.

No thanks.

Yes, there is the lets make Pattaya into Monaco mentality...........but you can't do that with social engineering schemes coupled with the construction of one concrete coffin building after another.

Monaco??? Oh! Where live Paula Radcliffe, Richards Farleigh (Dragons Den), David Coulthard, Jenson Button, Roger Moore, Ringo Starr, Wafic Said, Ken Bates, Tony Ryan and Julian Lennon? Where none of us can afford to live? No comment necessary. And it would require infinitely more social engineering--of the enviro-statism sort that you hold so dear, based on false assumptions,

I don't think this reflects only my vision........

Not at all, but delusion as well. And you can always find people who would agree with your dictatorial scheme as long as they themselves don't have to pay for it.

I think a lot of expats would love a "fun city" built for people and not cars and real estate agents.

Nope. Singapore's there already. Got a big tax on cars, too. We like Pattaya pretty much as it is and where it's going, except maybe for the baht buses, but lots of people love those too.

As I suggested earlier, North Korea and Cuba might be where you're happiest. Pyonyang is a perfect, indeed a stellar example of urban planning and government control; I don't know WHY you didn't cite it:

It’s the only major city that has managed to avoid turning into digusting, smoggy hellholes like Seoul, Saigon, Manila or Beijing. It has glorious wide boulevards, a beautifully clean and broad river and monumental architecture and public space that benefits the people rather than business. The Ryugyong hotel is an architectural masterpiece that is finally being completed and the Juche monument facing Kim-Il-Sung square across the Taedong is a powerful unifier of the Korean people. Transport is egalitarian and relies on the Metro and trolleybuses rather than the incessant din of scooters or Toyotas and the city is entirely free of the hideous commercial clutter that is an immediate symptom of American economic ideology.

Read more at redirecting...

OK, I'm gonna have cease enlightening before I'm banned. (Hope this post makes it thru.) No doubt the mods are getting ansy at this point and will soon close the thread. But do see my OP again. I strongly stand by it. Pattaya's doing pretty well, overall.

I see BOSCo's is being renovated for a new business even now.

So one business closes down and another replaces it, and thats growth

[LennyW]

Back on topic - there's a new Mcdonalds on Sukhumvit!!

[Tejas]

You missed my point and even twisted a few points..........congratulations

It is way past time to think about new models of growth that will enhance the quality of life for both Thais and foreigners.

Enhancing the quality of life is often not attainable when growth is unrestrained.

It would help if city planners would start thinking more about enhancing the quality of life of all residents.

Instead, as stated earlier, they seem to be planning the city around the needs of cars and real estate hounds.

My point about Taos and Aspen and other similar cities is that they have been planned to enhance the quality of life of HUMANS, not cars.

And they have attempted to embrace development plans that do not sacrifice nature.

It is possible to create a fun city.......with pockets of insanity..........and other related stuff.........and do it in a way that enhances the quality of life for the people living in the city.

You can also do it in a way that creates good jobs.

Unfortunately, that is very hard to do after a place has been ruined by a mindless form of growth.

You almost have to tear it down and start over.

[Ulysses G.]

OK, I'm gonna have cease enlightening before I'm banned. (Hope this post makes it thru.) 

As someone with lots of experience in the unwanted vacations department, I can assure you that the mods would not "ban" this post.  In fact, they would not even notice it  if you were not acting like it was somehow deserving of it. Don't be so paranoid. 

[actiondell4]

I dont want to break forum rules so i must be careful,however I was reading the UK Herald Sun online about the taxi driver in the UK who tragically took 12 lives with him,anyway not sure if i am allowed to post this link,but if you read the page it gives the story of a former owner of a Pattaya go go bar business called "spicy" and interviews the former owner Chris, who now lives in New York and works in a ...................................factory.

Guess business wasnt going too good? Factory job must pay better?

http://www.thesun.co...prostitute.html

I must admit when I first came to Pattaya I had that excitement to want to run a Bar ,with dancers etc,but the novelty soom wore off with the hours,the bookwork etc etc.

I did have one old cockney guy once tell me that some of these guys who rush to buy a pattaya business such as bars are dreamers and in his words,they want to be pretend East End villians,not sure what that means because i have never been to the UK.

Sure you get these guys,mostly 30s /40s age group,usualy divorced,come to thailand ,and they have a lot of friends who they have met on their travel or friends back in their own country who they think will come to their bar and their all excited for a few weeks ago just like a guy i met who opened up a bar called micks bar which after a month and after the free grand opening which cost him 50,000 baht he found out this was bloody hard work being contacted 24 hours a day,staff not turning up,electrcity off sometimes,toilets not flushing,no customers etc.He s gone,back to the UK,probaly just like Chris from former Spicy bar..now working in a factory,back to his regualar job,back to his workmates,back to his former drinking meets with his mates at the local,but to his normal lifestyle.

The dream wasnt what he imagined and mick couldnt wait to get back to his former job.

Imagine that,working on a production line all day because the dream failed,but he is far happier.

Think about the thousands who have gone back to their own country after running these kinds of businesses,gone back to the regular wages,the retirement fund,the regular job and once again there holiday annually which they enjoyed more than staying in thailand and running a business which wasnt a dream after all but bloody hard work.

"It just wasnt what i imagined said Mick,"i thought my mates would come over on their annual trips,i thought i would live like a king surrounded by all these beuties,only to miss my mates,my regular job and my fun annual holidays to Pattaya,instead i opened up a nightmare.,taking sometimes only 1000 b a day".

Edited June 13, 2010 by actiondell4

[Rimmer]

Would be nice if now we can get back on topic which is:

Why Is Everything Opening Up

[thaibeachlovers]

<br />

<br />Just because Pattaya is growing, does not mean it is doing well. <br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Your definition of doing well doesn't jibe with economic reality. </font><br /><br />The crime rate is up, the roads are more congested than ever ( despite lack of tour buses ), income for the workers is obviously well down, infrastructure has not improved in 18 years,  Bali Hai pier is disintegrating<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Yawn. Pattaya has always been a mess. It's the corrupt, inefficient government that's allowed it the freedom to become a desirable holiday destination for tourists who appreciate its particular Third Wold charms. <br /><br />A larger local population and more tourists mean more crime in absolute numbers. I don't think you have any figures showing the rate has increased significantly over, say, Bangkok's rate. Anyway, most of the crime is Thai-on-Thai, in the wee hours. <br /><br />And it's utter nonsense to say the infrastructure hasn't improved: the roads are greatly improved, new roads have been built (3rd rd. an outstanding example, and the new road from the airport), cables have been buried (three times or so), lights are up, stop lights are much better, the walkway etc. was built.<br /><br />You don't have a point here.</font><br /><br />More and more new shops, hotels and bars open without customers,<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Oh, the fallacy of the "downward spiral." You been listening to too much hysteria. It's the low season, there've been some political problems, and a bit of recession. Nothing that Pattaya hasn't seen many times before--and gone right through it to become bigger and better than ever. Wish I had a baht for every time I've heard that "last nail in the coffin" crap. <br /></font><br />scams continue galore, increasing numbers of desperate hawkers try to sell pointless trinkets to an ever poorer and diminishing tourist population, and the baht bus catastrophe continues unrelentingly.<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Hysteria aside, so what else is new? Way it's always been, pal. You want a nanny state w/ all under control, you know where to go. And buzz off w/ this judgment what people ought to buy. Somebody has always <i>liked </i>those pointless (to you) trinkets, and if they want them, what's it to you, Mr. Central Economic Planner? Seems you don't understand economic freedom at all. <br /> </font><br />As for the Beach Rd walkway- what should be the jewel in Pattaya's crown is a crumbling, disgusting wreck, full of holes and broken lamp bases.<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Should be--to whom? Lots of people don't give a shit about that walkway, me included. I never walk on it. You should have seen it before they tried to beautify it. Ain't no sidewalk in Thailand fit for walking. It's THAILAND--part of its charm is its chaos. <br /></font><br />Not everyone thinks change is in of itself a "good" thing.<br /><font color="#0000FF"><br />Nobody ever said that, so now you're just setting up a straw man. I ain't bitin'. </font><br /><br />Thailand is a large country, with many beaches to ruin, so why try to change Pattaya? <br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">You mean, leave the crappy beach as it's been for decades? OK, why not? Most people don't care to swim here anyway. </font><br /><br />Jomptien has a much better beach, better roads, and more space to put up all the malls you like. If City Hall was competent enough to put in a proper transportation system between Pattaya and Jomptien, the latter could become the place for all the modernist change artists, and Pattaya could remain a place for mongers. Win win.<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">You seem stuck in some sort of childishly simple either-or binary world. Actually, both Pattaya and Jomtien can accommodate upscale development AND mongers, as Pattaya does right now. Note those fine condos in Jomtien. Go analog, pal. <br /></font><br />No sane person thinks the only alternatives are madman capitalism constantly tearing down the old, only to put up more and more garish awful monstrocities over the remains of once beautiful beaches, and North Korea.<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Economic freedom allows entrepreneurs to meet changing needs. Pattaya has changed to meet the needs of a much more diverse and larger group of tourists and brought thousands of jobs to poor Thais who otherwise wouldn't have them. So far, most tourists haven't cared that much about the beaches. If they really did, then the <i>government </i>, whose responsibility it is, might stop pumping waste out there. In fact, it has made some attempts to do a better job about that. But, TIT. You want pristine beaches, Pattaya's not your spot, hasn't been for decades.</font> <br /><br />If someone tried to build something that destroyed New York's Central park there would be an uproar, Well, Pattaya as it was in the 90's had a charm all of it's own ( to those that had eyes to see ) that deserved to be preserved,<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">It did have its charm (even w/ the dirty beaches) but "deserved" is merely a selfish opinion: why should all those Thais who now have jobs and support their families w/ those jobs, and all those Thai and foreign tourists who <i>enjoy </i>the new developments, be denied so's you can drink cheap beer while sitting in a thatched hut on Pattaya Beach listening to some ho's forced laughter at your jokes? That time has passed, pal. Live with it. </font><br /><br />but, of course, money comes before mongers,<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Thousands of jobs for Thais and a better local Thai economy come before mongers' cheap beer in a thatched hut near the beach w/ some ho, yes. Somebody has got to make some money, yes. <br /><br />The mongers peaked out in what they could sustain. Some, then, will lose the sea view but surely will survive. <br /></font><br />or at least that what's they think till the monger's money stops, and there's thousands of low paid workers unemployed, and wearing red shirts in the streets.<br /><br /><font color="#0000FF">Just a little self-serving fantasy. Pattaya has provided an incredible number of new jobs since the 80s and continues to accommodate the mongers extremely well--though now the mongers might have to pay a bit more for a sea view. If they need it, they will. But I don't think sea view is their main priority, do you? Lots of mongers are perfectly content to stay over there around Soi Buakaew. And Crazy Dave's, a newer business, usually has customers.  <br /></font><br />

<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Not on topic, of course, but if I can reply to some of the above:

I fail to see what economic reality you are referring to- thousands of unfilled rooms in hideous concrete monstrosities, hundreds of poor people struggling to survive. Not my idea of economic prosperity.

the crime rate increased significantly after Purachai's "crackdown" and new visa regs reduced the number of mongers, but the population hadn't increased at all at that time.

How can you say the infrastructure is better? It looks exactly the same as 18 years ago. I'm referring to the area that most tourists inhabit.

Third Rd is a planning cock up from the beginning. They built it in a completely unbuilt area, but only made 4 lanes when they could have made 6 or even 8. A lost opportunity. They didn't even have to pave it all at the time if cost was an issue, but now it's just another traffic catastrophe.

Perhaps they buried a few wires, but it hasn't improved anything obvious.

I haven't noticed any new stop lights on Naklua, North, Central, South, Beach or Second Rds.

My comments re spoiling once beautiful beaches refers more to other beaches in LOS, as Pattaya hasn't ever had a beautiful beach as long as I've been coming here. It's more to illustrate the Thai developers disregard for any cultural value over monetary gain.

You seem to support the view that a few jobs being lackies for "rich" farangs is a worthwhile occupation choice. Or how about "do you want fries with that" for a career option?

Do you really think the reduced numbers are a "normal" low season situation? Where are all the Chinese tour buses outside Mikes?

Crazy Daves might have customers, but not many of the others do.

You don't get my point about developing both Pattaya and Jomptien. With a decent transport system it wouldn't be necessary, and why should Pattaya be developed other than for greed. It made billions as it was, but developers wanted more and more. I'm not saying there can't be development, but there's plenty of other places to do so without destroying Pattaya. IMO, if the mongers hadn't made Pattaya popular, the developers wouldn't have moved in to take advantage.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the value of their currency for most tourists has fallen almost 50% since mid noughties, and massive bad publicity is keeping families, Asians and richer people away. So who's going to be supporting all those "new jobs". Have a look at all the empty shops around Pattaya.

If tourists have less money than they expected, how many are going to have foot massages, fish spas or buy wooden motorcycles from hawkers?

If the walkway isn't the "Jewel in the Crown", what is? Hard Rock Hotel, LOL.

Your comments about the sewage indicate just how little you know of Pattaya's past.

As for the mongers, so long as there're bars and women, they will come, unlike the trendies, who vanish at the first sight of trouble. So who're the more valuable to Pattaya's future?

[Tejas]

Question to posters: Do you think that over the past two years more places have opened up than closed?

I certainly do not see a level of customer traffic that would warrant more growth..........seems like supply has greatly exceeded demand, even during the high season.

Still, maybe there are niche markets that can survive even in this bad economic period (e.g., pawn shops).

[Ulysses G.]

As for the mongers, so long as there're bars and women, they will come, unlike the trendies, who vanish at the first sight of trouble. So who're the more valuable to Pattaya's future?

This is true all over Thailand. The mongers keep coming and stay in decent places and spend a fair amount of money. If not for them, the tourist industry might have already collapsed completely. 

[FarangBuddha]

(FarangBuddha makes a little more sense when he's off the topic of Songkran, but he did throw in that nonsense about "closing down" half the nightlife establishments. But he just drives by them in his SUV with the windows rolled up; in contrast, many of us do enjoy the "boites," as Trink used to call them.)

My point is that more businesses have opened and are opening up than are closing down, the latter argument put forth in yet another gloom-and-doom thread in which everyone nodded their heads and clucked sadly and wisely.

PTY is going to continue to grow one way or the other: there's no doubt about that. It's amusing that people refuse to believe it.

p.s Pattaya getting another hammering in the press because the guy who killed 12 people in the UK last week lost all his money to a Thai hooker, and flipped out over it. also the guy who locked all his kids in a cellar for years and fathered them children was also a regular visitor. i dont agree with blaming pattaya for this but its making the front pages back in Europe.

Funny that...a man willingly hands over fist-fulls of dosh and it's reported in the press that he "lost" all his money...I would say more like he gave it all away

As for the "bad" press, I'm quite sure that all the men reading in the press about getting their "kinks" fulfilled for a "tenner" in Pattaya will do wonders for our single-male tourism numbers from here on out

And darn right I drive by all the bars with my SUV's windows up...it's darn hot in Thailand!

Edited June 13, 2010 by FarangBuddha