Put the 2nd largest oil reserve under its thumb/US military control.

Create a control state from which the US can dominate M.E oil

So, how has this devious plan worked out so far?

So, to stop the torturing and killing of innocent civilians, America invaded and tortured and killed innocent civilians, themselves.

Very odd to be smug about that.

If you read the article, you will see that the leaks indeed show there was a lot of torture - by Iraqis on Iraqis - and the Americans were stopping it.

and the Americans failed to investigate the torture cases, reporting "no investigation is necessary"

and Iraqi police and soldiers who torture normally go unpunished

My link

Funny too that the so called dictator was happily accepted as a puppet for many years....until he decided to quit.Sell oil in Euros etc.

Suddenly Iraq is deemed unstable....We are to believe it was always stable when he was the lap dog of the US though..

This spin machine should write for Aesop's

remember the 50s and 60s reference to latin american or caribbean dictators? "of course he is a bastard but he is OUR bastard!"

I was going to post a photo of Saddam & Chirac but there have been so many of them over the years dating back to the 70's that I'll let you guys just do a google image search of "Chirac Saddam" and pick your favorite. One of my personal favorites is Chirac giving Saddam a tour of a French nuclear power plant. Anyway, for those youngsters out there, Chirac of France was one of those for dropping the sanctions against Saddam before the war. Not that his reasoning had anything to do with his 30 yr friendship with Saddam or any oil-for-food kick backs French companies had been receiving from Saddam.

So, to stop the torturing and killing of innocent civilians, America invaded and tortured and killed innocent civilians, themselves.

Very odd to be smug about that.

If you read the article, you will see that the leaks indeed show there was a lot of torture - by Iraqis on Iraqis - and the Americans were stopping it.

and the Americans failed to investigate the torture cases, reporting "no investigation is necessary"

and Iraqi police and soldiers who torture normally go unpunished

My link

I wouldn't expect them to arrest Iraqi police officers suspected of abusing Iraqi prisoners while they're fighting a battle against the insurgents & terrorists. Then what? Put them in Abu Ghraib?

Put the 2nd largest oil reserve under its thumb/US military control.

Create a control state from which the US can dominate M.E oil

So, how has this devious plan worked out so far?

The whole "war for oil!" mantra was popular in 2003 but obviously untrue long before even 2010.

The use of DU in munitions is controversial because of questions about potential long-term health effects.

I certainly hope that no terrorists got sick after they were blown up.

Depleted uranium is used against armour.

So most DU munitions were probably expended in the early days of the war against regular troops. Any use against terrorists would be a waste of expensive materiel. An ounce of lead works very well against most humans (Steven Seagull and JC van Damme excepted)

It seems only Assange is entitled to privacy.

______________________________________________________

WikiLeaks boss walks out on CNN interview after reporter asks him about HIS private life

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

Last updated at 6:49 AM on 25th October 2010

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and his organisation are famously liberal with the secrets of the U.S. military - but the man is not so forthcoming about his own private life.

Australian-born Mr Assange walked out on a CNN interview after the reporter had the temerity to ask him about his often terse relationship with fellow workers - and an even more serious personal court case in which he was cleared of sex abuse charges in Sweden.

The 39-year-old ended the interview with CNN's Atika Shubert after she brought up the issue of the charges brought against him - who himself publicised the charges as a 'dirty tricks campaign' by the U.S. government.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323295/WikiLeaks-boss-Julian-Assange-walks-CNN-interview.html#ixzz13LjP13KR

_______________________________________________________

It also appears Assange's fellow culprits are no longer gathering around the campfire and singing "Kumbaya" with him.

Secret war at the heart of Wikileaks

By Jerome Taylor

Monday, 25 October 2010SHARE PRINTEMAILTEXT SIZE NORMALLARGEEXTRA LARGE

REUTERS

Julien Assange last night accused those who have attacked him from inside Wikileaks as 'peripheral figures... spreading poison'

A civil war at the heart of Wikileaks has virtually paralysed the whistle-blowing website from publishing any new exposés outside of the Iraq and Afghanistan war logs, say former staffers and volunteers.

The website's recent unveiling of more than 390,000 secret US military documents from the Iraq war – on top of the 77,000 Afghan war logs it published earlier this year – has been hailed as one of the most explosive intelligence leaks in living memory, providing an astonishing level of previously unknown detail on two deeply controversial conflicts.

But a number of former members say that the website's obsession with pursuing the US military has resulted in Wikileaks losing sight of its founding principle that all leaks should be made available to the public no matter how large or small.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/online/secret-war-at-the-heart-of-wikileaks-2115637.html

I think these leaks could be pretty cool if it were done after the war was over. Great historical stuff. But the wars are still going on and if this were WWII, Assange would be shot or hanged as a spy.

It seems only Assange is entitled to privacy.

______________________________________________________

WikiLeaks boss walks out on CNN interview after reporter asks him about HIS private life

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

Last updated at 6:49 AM on 25th October 2010

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and his organisation are famously liberal with the secrets of the U.S. military - but the man is not so forthcoming about his own private life.

Australian-born Mr Assange walked out on a CNN interview after the reporter had the temerity to ask him about his often terse relationship with fellow workers - and an even more serious personal court case in which he was cleared of sex abuse charges in Sweden.

The 39-year-old ended the interview with CNN's Atika Shubert after she brought up the issue of the charges brought against him - who himself publicised the charges as a 'dirty tricks campaign' by the U.S. government.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz13LjP13KR

_______________________________________________________

It also appears Assange's fellow culprits are no longer gathering around the campfire and singing "Kumbaya" with him.

Secret war at the heart of Wikileaks

By Jerome Taylor

Monday, 25 October 2010SHARE PRINTEMAILTEXT SIZE NORMALLARGEEXTRA LARGE

REUTERS

Julien Assange last night accused those who have attacked him from inside Wikileaks as 'peripheral figures... spreading poison'

A civil war at the heart of Wikileaks has virtually paralysed the whistle-blowing website from publishing any new exposés outside of the Iraq and Afghanistan war logs, say former staffers and volunteers.

The website's recent unveiling of more than 390,000 secret US military documents from the Iraq war – on top of the 77,000 Afghan war logs it published earlier this year – has been hailed as one of the most explosive intelligence leaks in living memory, providing an astonishing level of previously unknown detail on two deeply controversial conflicts.

But a number of former members say that the website's obsession with pursuing the US military has resulted in Wikileaks losing sight of its founding principle that all leaks should be made available to the public no matter how large or small.

http://www.independe...ks-2115637.html

Don't like the message, kill the messenger, or in this case, character assisinate.

So most DU munitions were probably expended in the early days of the war against regular troops. Any use against terrorists would be a waste of expensive materiel. An ounce of lead works very well against most humans (Steven Seagull and JC van Damme excepted)

You forgot Chuck Norris.

So, to stop the torturing and killing of innocent civilians, America invaded and tortured and killed innocent civilians, themselves.

Very odd to be smug about that.

If you read the article, you will see that the leaks indeed show there was a lot of torture - by Iraqis on Iraqis - and the Americans were stopping it.

and the Americans failed to investigate the torture cases, reporting "no investigation is necessary"

and Iraqi police and soldiers who torture normally go unpunished

My link

I wouldn't expect them to arrest Iraqi police officers suspected of abusing Iraqi prisoners while they're fighting a battle against the insurgents & terrorists. Then what? Put them in Abu Ghraib?

nah just send in a private army hit squad and deal to them

I think these leaks could be pretty cool if it were done after the war was over. Great historical stuff. But the wars are still going on and if this were WWII, Assange would be shot or hanged as a spy.

do you suppose when the war ends and the leaks exposed war crimes, there will be consequences?

Don't like the message, kill the messenger...

Well, for all intents and purposes, Julien Assange is a spy.

Don't like the message, kill the messenger...

Well, for all intents and purposes, Julien Assange is a spy.

No, he's not. He's a man who's saying things that reveal that the Establishment is not as lily white as it would like us to believe. Presumably the First Amendment (freedom of speech and all that shit) only applies to those who are saying what you want to hear?

No, it only applies to those who are not releasing stolen documents that endanger a lot of lives.

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

I think these leaks could be pretty cool if it were done after the war was over. Great historical stuff. But the wars are still going on and if this were WWII, Assange would be shot or hanged as a spy.

do you suppose when the war ends and the leaks exposed war crimes, there will be consequences?

Real war crimes, yes. Looney-Left imaginary war crimes, no.

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

It's a fact hard to deny but all the same I look forward to the logic of those who will try.

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

It's a fact hard to deny but all the same I look forward to the logic of those who will try.

It's a non-fact that is easy to deny.

He is NOT guilty of espionage.

Lets look at the definition of "espionage" shall we? I have looked at several web-based definitions and none of them apply to Assange...so lets see a reputable definition that will also indict him of the charge "espionage".

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

and the Federation of Planets accuses him of being a double agent for the Romulan Empire and the KGB

It would seem, in conjunction with sub-section (g), Assange might also be charged with Conspiracy.

Espionage Act of 1917

18 U.S.C. § 793 : US Code - Section 793: Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

(a) Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting

the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the

information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to

the advantage of any foreign nation, goes upon, enters, flies over,

or otherwise obtains information concerning any vessel, aircraft,

work of defense, navy yard, naval station, submarine base, fueling

station, fort, battery, torpedo station, dockyard, canal, railroad,

arsenal, camp, factory, mine, telegraph, telephone, wireless, or

signal station, building, office, research laboratory or station or

other place connected with the national defense owned or

constructed, or in progress of construction by the United States or

under the control of the United States, or of any of its officers,

departments, or agencies, or within the exclusive jurisdiction of

the United States, or any place in which any vessel, aircraft,

arms, munitions, or other materials or instruments for use in time

of war are being made, prepared, repaired, stored, or are the

subject of research or development, under any contract or agreement

with the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or

with any person on behalf of the United States, or otherwise on

behalf of the United States, or any prohibited place so designated

by the President by proclamation in time of war or in case of

national emergency in which anything for the use of the Army, Navy,

or Air Force is being prepared or constructed or stored,

information as to which prohibited place the President has

determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(B Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or

reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to

copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic

negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance,

document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national

defense; or

(c Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, receives or obtains or

agrees or attempts to receive or obtain from any person, or from

any source whatever, any document, writing, code book, signal book,

sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map,

model, instrument, appliance, or note, of anything connected with

the national defense, knowing or having reason to believe, at the

time he receives or obtains, or agrees or attempts to receive or

obtain it, that it has been or will be obtained, taken, made, or

disposed of by any person contrary to the provisions of this

chapter; or

(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control

over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book,

signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint,

plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the

national defense, or information relating to the national defense

which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used

to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any

foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or

causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to

communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated,

delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to

receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it

on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled

to receive it; or

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or

control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch,

photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model,

instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or

information relating to the national defense which information the

possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the

United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully

communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated,

delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver,

transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the

same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains

the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the

United States entitled to receive it; or

(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or

control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch,

photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model,

instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the

national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to

be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone

in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or

destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally

removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in

violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or

destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft,

abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten

years, or both.

(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the

foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such

persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of

the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment

provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

(h)(1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall

forfeit to the United States, irrespective of any provision of

State law, any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds

the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from any foreign

government, or any faction or party or military or naval force

within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the

United States, as the result of such violation. For the purposes of

this subsection, the term "State" includes a State of the United

States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory,

or possession of the United States.

(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a

conviction of a violation of this section, shall order that the

defendant forfeit to the United States all property described in

paragraph (1) of this subsection.

(3) The provisions of subsections (B, (c, and (e) through (p)

of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and

Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853(B, (c, and (e)-(p)) shall

apply to -

(A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection;

(B any seizure or disposition of such property; and

© any administrative or judicial proceeding in relation to

such property,

if not inconsistent with this subsection.

(4) Notwithstanding section 524(c of title 28, there shall be

deposited in the Crime Victims Fund in the Treasury all amounts

from the forfeiture of property under this subsection remaining

after the payment of expenses for forfeiture and sale authorized by

law.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/793

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

and the Federation of Planets accuses him of being a double agent for the Romulan Empire and the KGB

Great. The USA happens to be Earth's representative to the Federation of Planets and as such has full authority to deal with the matter as they see fit.

It would seem, in conjunction with sub-section (g), Assange might also be charged with Conspiracy.

Espionage Act of 1917

18 U.S.C. § 793 : US Code - Section 793: Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

(a) Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting

the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the

information is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to

the advantage of any foreign nation, goes upon, enters, flies over,

or otherwise obtains information concerning any vessel, aircraft,

work of defense, navy yard, naval station, submarine base, fueling

station, fort, battery, torpedo station, dockyard, canal, railroad,

arsenal, camp, factory, mine, telegraph, telephone, wireless, or

signal station, building, office, research laboratory or station or

other place connected with the national defense owned or

constructed, or in progress of construction by the United States or

under the control of the United States, or of any of its officers,

departments, or agencies, or within the exclusive jurisdiction of

the United States, or any place in which any vessel, aircraft,

arms, munitions, or other materials or instruments for use in time

of war are being made, prepared, repaired, stored, or are the

subject of research or development, under any contract or agreement

with the United States, or any department or agency thereof, or

with any person on behalf of the United States, or otherwise on

behalf of the United States, or any prohibited place so designated

by the President by proclamation in time of war or in case of

national emergency in which anything for the use of the Army, Navy,

or Air Force is being prepared or constructed or stored,

information as to which prohibited place the President has

determined would be prejudicial to the national defense; or

(B Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or

reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to

copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic

negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance,

document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national

defense; or

(c Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, receives or obtains or

agrees or attempts to receive or obtain from any person, or from

any source whatever, any document, writing, code book, signal book,

sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map,

model, instrument, appliance, or note, of anything connected with

the national defense, knowing or having reason to believe, at the

time he receives or obtains, or agrees or attempts to receive or

obtain it, that it has been or will be obtained, taken, made, or

disposed of by any person contrary to the provisions of this

chapter; or

(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control

over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book,

signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint,

plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the

national defense, or information relating to the national defense

which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used

to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any

foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or

causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to

communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated,

delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to

receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it

on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled

to receive it; or

(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or

control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch,

photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model,

instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or

information relating to the national defense which information the

possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the

United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully

communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated,

delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver,

transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the

same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains

the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the

United States entitled to receive it; or

(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or

control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch,

photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model,

instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the

national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to

be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone

in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or

destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally

removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in

violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or

destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft,

abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer -

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten

years, or both.

(g) If two or more persons conspire to violate any of the

foregoing provisions of this section, and one or more of such

persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of

the parties to such conspiracy shall be subject to the punishment

provided for the offense which is the object of such conspiracy.

(h)(1) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall

forfeit to the United States, irrespective of any provision of

State law, any property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds

the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from any foreign

government, or any faction or party or military or naval force

within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the

United States, as the result of such violation. For the purposes of

this subsection, the term "State" includes a State of the United

States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory,

or possession of the United States.

(2) The court, in imposing sentence on a defendant for a

conviction of a violation of this section, shall order that the

defendant forfeit to the United States all property described in

paragraph (1) of this subsection.

(3) The provisions of subsections (B, (c, and (e) through (p)

of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and

Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853(B, (c, and (e)-(p)) shall

apply to -

(A) property subject to forfeiture under this subsection;

(B any seizure or disposition of such property; and

© any administrative or judicial proceeding in relation to

such property,

if not inconsistent with this subsection.

(4) Notwithstanding section 524(c of title 28, there shall be

deposited in the Crime Victims Fund in the Treasury all amounts

from the forfeiture of property under this subsection remaining

after the payment of expenses for forfeiture and sale authorized by

law.

http://codes.lp.find...ode/18/I/37/793

Jump, Rover, jump.

Very good chucky, however I don't believe subsection (g)'s mention of "conspiracy" is "Conspiracy" as defined under the act....it is merely a term regarding two people having a chat about something......the subsection is about covering bases as the rest of the act refers to "whoever" and treats the "whoever" as an individual......not being a lawyer, I could stand to be corrected on that though.

The entire Act relies upon the phrase "information respecting the national defense"......remind me again how America is defending itself in Iraq?

The entire Act also relies upon a proof of injury to the US, or advantage to any other nation. I suggest that "injury" may ensue for individuals that have committed war crimes, but not for the nation, and I am not aware of the advantage to any other nation that these leaks provide.

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

and the Federation of Planets accuses him of being a double agent for the Romulan Empire and the KGB

Great. The USA happens to be Earth's representative to the Federation of Planets and as such has full authority to deal with the matter as they see fit.

Fantasy aside.....the US does indeed deal with things as it sees fit...regardless of any lack of authority.

...Stolen CLASSIFIED documents.

He is guilty of espionage at the least and he is being investigated for that crime.

and the Federation of Planets accuses him of being a double agent for the Romulan Empire and the KGB

Great. The USA happens to be Earth's representative to the Federation of Planets and as such has full authority to deal with the matter as they see fit.

Fantasy aside.....the US does indeed deal with things as it sees fit...regardless of any lack of authority.

The fantasy is believing that another country has the authority to tell the US what they have the authority to do or not do.

It would seem, in conjunction with sub-section (g), Assange might also be charged with Conspiracy...

...as well as smoking in a one-way street on a sunday morning.

I think these leaks could be pretty cool if it were done after the war was over. Great historical stuff. But the wars are still going on and if this were WWII, Assange would be shot or hanged as a spy.

do you suppose when the war ends and the leaks exposed war crimes, there will be consequences?

Real war crimes, yes. Looney-Left imaginary war crimes, no.

lets hope there is an inquiry, and let the matter rest on the outcome without this mudslinging

Prosecute those involved in Iraq war crimes

Baghdad just cannot turn a blind eye to the documents released by WikiLeaks

The Iraq war documents, published by WikiLeaks, may have shocked many. But on second thoughts, everyone knew what has been happening in the occupied country. Trigger-happy troops, tortured prisoners, death squads, Blackwater mercenaries and corruption are all familiar issues to those who have been following the Iraq tragedy since March 20, 2003.

The documents will unfortunately not change the mind of those who supported the invasion. But will surely put pressure on the US and Iraq governments to rethink their strategies. Also, they are a wake up call for the UN, the Arab League and human rights organisations to get involved in the country which is effectively still ruled by the US Department of Defence despite assurances to the contrary.

The immediate reaction from both Washington and Baghdad should not be condemning WikiLeaks for publishing the documents. They are shooting the messenger. The moral and responsible thing to do is to launch an immediate, public and comprehensive investigation into the abuses and crimes reported in the documents. The Iraqi government in particular, if it is seriously interested in bringing about real reconciliation, must act today to prosecute those responsible for the abuses and the assassinations.

The Iraqi government just cannot turn a blind eye to the nearly half a million documents and move on as if nothing had happened. A truth commission is a must. It is a prerequisite to any attempt to heal the wounds of the civil strife and a first step towards rehabilitating the country and starting its reconstruction process.

As for Washington; it is totally another story. It is not just about doing the right thing. Its image, which President Barack Obama says he wants to improve, has taken another significant beating. It is difficult to see how this can be rectified. But the first step is to prosecute the officials and generals responsible for the war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. Certainly, Obama knows their names very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cjUgyarQyU

It would seem, in conjunction with sub-section (g), Assange might also be charged with Conspiracy...

...as well as smoking in a one-way street on a sunday morning.

I bet they lock him up if he walks to close to an elementary school. The guy is creepy.