The general opinion on the Left is that the only people who would volunteer for the military must do so out of economic hardship or because they are uneducated and can't do anything else. Keeping that in mind, what do they think of gays who want to join? Are they also poor and uneducated?

'The general opinion on the Left'? Bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it?

Here's a leader from today's Times (which I've also posted in another thread). I've boldened the bit which I think is the most important part.

Patriotism Affirmed

Belatedly allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the US military is right

December 23 2010 12:01AM

When President Truman signed an order in 1948 ending racial segregation in the US armed forces, he faced criticism from his own military commanders. General Omar Bradley, the Army Chief of Staff, said that desegregation would be implemented in the military only when it had become a fact in the rest of American society.

Such obstructionism, mounted for no reason of military utility, will seem scarcely credible now. Yet a policy of no greater sense or justice was repealed only yesterday by President Obama. From next year, homosexual men and women will be able to serve in the US military and acknowledge openly their sexuality. This is not merely a reform that is long overdue: it lifts an injustice whose counterparts have, belatedly and still with some exceptions, already been swept from civilian life.

Mr Obama’s decision works with the grain of public opinion. A Gallup poll this year recorded for the first time that a majority of Americans regarded same-sex relations as morally acceptable. Yet Mr Obama still showed political initiative in sticking to his campaign promises.

He will have recalled that the early months of the Administration of Bill Clinton, his Democratic predecessor, were dogged by controversy on this issue. Mr Clinton had argued in the 1992 presidential election for the reversal of a ban on gays serving in the military. Within days of taking office, he realised the strength of congressional and military opposition. An uneasy compromise was enacted that came to be known as “Don’t ask, don’t tell”. Recruits would no longer be asked whether they were homosexual; having been enlisted, they would be free to serve provided that they did not disclose their sexuality.

While the aim of the reform was noble, the outcome was worse than a legislative mess. In effect it declared that homosexuals had no place in the armed services and insinuated that their presence was a problem for an effective military. It thereby encouraged a culture of concealment, deceit and denunciation within the ranks. It also ensured that a future president would have to gain the approval of Congress before lifting the policy.

Fortunately, the outgoing House of Representatives and Senate did approve a new law this week. Opposition from within the military was blunted by a new Pentagon study, using survey data from Service personnel and spouses, which concluded that allowing gays to serve openly carried only a low risk to military preparedness.

The eradication of discrimination against homosexuals is not some whim of pressure groups. It is not social engineering to change the face of American institutions. It is not a plea for special treatment. It is common sense: recognition that homosexuals already serve, and do so with the same instincts of patriotism and public service as their comrades. A ban, and the policy that superseded it, specifically targeted them for suspicion and discriminatory treatment.

More than 13,000 people have been dismissed from the forces in the past 17 years under a policy that was supposed to be an advance for tolerance. These are Americans whose sense of civic duty is so great that they risked the discovery of their sexuality and punishment for it. They have been rewarded with ostracism and humiliation. This is not some merely theoretical injustice, and it should be a cause for pride that it is now lifted.

"The general opinion of the left"????

As Endure has said, that is a sweeping generalisation.

Certainly the military provides an attractive career choice for the under-educated and the poor, but that does not mean that there are not attractions for educated or well off people.

Considering that gay people are found in all walks of society, I have no doubt that there will be uneducated, poor, gay people that will sign up.

So what?

Indeed. I know a man (not gay) who served in the USCG and parlayed his GI Bill education into a professorship at Oxford University.

Listen, everytime it has been brought up that the US military is a volunteer force, the Left counters with it is only volunteer because only poor and uneducated would join the military. Now that gays get to serve, all of a sudden it's about patriotism and a sense of great civic duty.

‘Those who ultimately pay the death tax are those people who cannot find decent employment and who want to better themselves. And what a tax they pay when they find themselves in an informal draft’

—Rep. Charles Rangel

Who is 'Rep. Charles Rangel'? Is he the spokesman of all left-wingers everywhere?

Who is 'Rep. Charles Rangel'? Is he the spokesman of all left-wingers everywhere?

He is the poster child of a leftwinger, yes.

He is a pretty good example of the values, sincerity and honesty of much of the far left. There is no getting away from that.

Why would any educated person join the military?

Wouldn't be easier to join the military then get an education... or after leaving it? For financial reasons if no other.

Most officer candidates start their training and college education on leaving high school.. they do in Australia anyway, that way you get your three squares, a bed and a pay packet.

Why is there an assumption that gays are better educated than heterosexuals?

Isn't Rangel a decorated veteran? May be he steals because he was a poor and uneducated former military rather than he's an anti drugs, anti Iraq war pinko?

Why am I reading this drivel?

Even worse, why am I contributing to it?

Merry Christmas everyone.

If I could join the military and there were lots of hot females with great bodies everywhere, I might do it despite the risks. Why should gay guys be any different?

Joining the military for a job and an education is as old as professional military forces. Suggesting these people are sub standard because of it is ludicrous.

Is there a higher percentage of gays in the military than out?

Maybe some of these gays join the military for patriotic reasons?

Is this feasible?

For the sake of discussion can we draw the assumption that some of the poor and uneducated join for patriotic reasons or is that too far "outside the box"?

But then not much here is anymore.

I would tend to think that there are a lot of different reasons why people join the military. Poor and uneducated could be one reason.

For a lot of gays, especially those in their teens and early 20's, they may not have come to terms with their sexuality and other issues in their life. If they are from a rural area, the first order of business is to get the hell out of Dodge, because what you are doesn't fit well in rural areas. The military is an excellent way to get out. And an honorable one, I might add.

For a lot of gays, especially those in their teens and early 20's, they may not have come to terms with their sexuality and other issues in their life. If they are from a rural area, the first order of business is to get the hell out of Dodge, because what you are doesn't fit well in rural areas. The military is an excellent way to get out.

Sounds like a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. The ranks of the military are made up mostly of people from rural areas.

WHO SERVES IN THE U.S. MILITARY? THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF ENLISTED TROOPS AND OFFICERS:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2008/pdf/cda08-05.pdf

I think it's more to do with getting a ticket out than worrying about the make up of the military. The military has never been seen as being gay friendly, but for a lot, it's a reasonably secure place to go. You get away from home, you will be fed and clothed (and possibly killed, but young people don't think about that so much).

I mean, they can't all go directly to San Francisco!

DADT was signed into law by a Democrat.

Americans volunteer for the military for many reasons. Indeed, a large portion are poor and uneducated, and see that path as their best hope for their future. But it's not that simple. There are military families with a long family history of serving, there are cultural factors, such as being from the South and small towns, that contribute to making this choice. One issue I have with the current system is that indeed the children of the elite mostly don't serve and yet it is the elite that makes the decisions to enter wars. If Bush's daughters had to serve and risk their lives, perhaps W wouldn't have lied to the world to start that mistake in Iraq, without a doubt the biggest foreign policy error in American history.

Americans volunteer for the military for many reasons. Indeed, a large portion are poor and uneducated, and see that path as their best hope for their future. But it's not that simple. There are military families with a long family history of serving, there are cultural factors, such as being from the South and small towns, that contribute to making this choice. One issue I have with the current system is that indeed the children of the elite mostly don't serve and yet it is the elite that makes the decisions to enter wars. If Bush's daughters had to serve and risk their lives, perhaps W wouldn't have lied to the world to start that mistake in Iraq, without a doubt the biggest foreign policy error in American history.

No one has to serve, we have a volunteer military. Vice President Biden voted for the Iraq War Resolution in 2002 when he was a Senator and his son served in Iraq.

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Next myth, the children of the elite don't serve. If you read the report I linked above, you would find that...

"Enlisted Recruits Are More Likely to Come from Middle- and Upper-Class Neighborhoods

One-quarter of enlisted recruits come from the wealthiest fifth of U.S. neighborhoods [over $65,042]. Less than 11 percent come from the poorest quintile [under $33,267]."

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Gays were allowed to join the military before. They just had to tell lies about themselves.

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Gays were allowed to join the military before. They just had to tell lies about themselves.

no matter what the law i have to believe that gays who are low key and see their sexuality as a sexual prefrence will be much treated much better than flaming limp wristed (lady boys)types.

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Gays were allowed to join the military before. They just had to tell lies about themselves.

no matter what the law i have to believe that gays who are low key and see their sexuality as a sexual prefrence will be much treated much better than flaming limp wristed (lady boys)types.

Here's a clue. The only people who straight people think are gay are the 'lady boys types'. Most of us gay folks go about our day to day business without straight folks having any idea that we're gay.

Here's another clue. Gay folks are just as likely as straight folks to be 'poor and uneducated'.

Being gay is a sexual preference not an entrée into some wealthy highly educated clique.

Well I joined the Military in 1978. I have worn a uniform and carried guns ever since. I can say with many years of authority, the sexual orientation of the man or woman who stands next to you when the shit hits the fan matters not one jot or tittle and has never crossed the mind of anyone under fire..................True fact.

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Gays were allowed to join the military before. They just had to tell lies about themselves.

no matter what the law i have to believe that gays who are low key and see their sexuality as a sexual prefrence will be much treated much better than flaming limp wristed (lady boys)types.

Here's a clue. The only people who straight people think are gay are the 'lady boys types'. Most of us gay folks go about our day to day business without straight folks having any idea that we're gay.

Here's another clue. Gay folks are just as likely as straight folks to be 'poor and uneducated'.

Being gay is a sexual preference not an entrée into some wealthy highly educated clique.

The National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyle

Office of National Statistics placed Britain's gay and bisexual community at 1.5% of the adult population. Gay people, the survey found, are far more likely to be successful professionally and to be better educated.

Well I joined the Military in 1978. I have worn a uniform and carried guns ever since. I can say with many years of authority, the sexual orientation of the man or woman who stands next to you when the shit hits the fan matters not one jot or tittle and has never crossed the mind of anyone under fire..................True fact.

I was forced to join the military in 1968. The only two guys I met who were gay were the Chaplains assistant and the Flight Surgeons assistant. Both nice guys. I don't know what would have happened if the shit hit the fan because it never did when I was with the Chaplains assistant or the Flight Surgeons assistant. I do know they never had any problems finding partners for all night guard duty in the bunkers surrounding the airfield. Bernie the Flight Surgeons assistant checked all the house maids for STD's and that saved on condoms because no one liked to wear them anyway. He also supplied syringes to the cooks who were mostly hooked on smack because no one wanted them to get hepatitis.

Both men got along well with everyone else and certainly didn't create any problems. The average education level of my company was a Masters degree with most men having gone beyond that level.

The average education level of the officers was substantially less and they were a problem to manage at times. But we all coped as best we could.

The average education level of the officers was substantially less and they were a problem to manage at times. But we all coped as best we could.

Good line. Wish I had thought of it.

Now that gays are allowed to join the military, the myth of volunteers being poor and stupid has gone up in smoke.

Gays were allowed to join the military before. They just had to tell lies about themselves.

no matter what the law i have to believe that gays who are low key and see their sexuality as a sexual prefrence will be much treated much better than flaming limp wristed (lady boys)types.

Here's a clue. The only people who straight people think are gay are the 'lady boys types'. Most of us gay folks go about our day to day business without straight folks having any idea that we're gay.

Here's another clue. Gay folks are just as likely as straight folks to be 'poor and uneducated'.

Being gay is a sexual preference not an entrée into some wealthy highly educated clique.

I once had a rooomate who turned out to be gay. He told me that "normal acting" gays hated the flamers because they felt that the flamers made it difficult for gays to be accepted by society on a whole.

"The average education level of my company was a Masters degree with most men having gone beyond that level.

The average education level of the officers was substantially less and they were a problem to manage at times. But we all coped as best we could. "

yeah right. .

To claim that a Masters degree is the average for enlisted men in an army company beggars belief.

Are "masters degrees" given out with food coupons in America?

Somewhere in your assertion is an explanation why the American military has a reputation for being reckless "cowboys",

There is also a very sad indictment on the American education system, which is hard to believe as I have met (virtually) some intelligent and well educated Americans on this forum.

yeah right. .

To claim that a Masters degree is the average for enlisted men in an army company beggars belief.

I had mentioned in the past that it was pretty scary that advanced weapons operating manuals had to be re-written down to a 10th grade comprehension level so...I agree it is BS to say the average enlisted man has a Masters

In fact here is a application for a Naval Intelligence Specialist ...Note The Other Requirements....& this is the Intelligence Specialist???

I think Military Intelligence is a bit of an oxymoron

Military information, particularly classified information about enemies or potential enemies, is called "intelligence." Intelligence specialists analyze intelligence data. They break down information to determine its usefulness in military planning. From this intelligence data, they prepare materials that describe in detail the features of strategic and tactical areas all over the world.

The duties performed by ISs include:

* analyzing intelligence information;

* identifying and producing intelligence from raw information; assembling and analyzing multi-source operational intelligence; preparing and presenting intelligence briefings; preparing planning materials for photographic reconnaissance missions; analyzing the results, preparing reports.

* preparing graphics, overlays and photo/map composites; plotting imagery data using maps and charts;

* providing input to and receive data from computerized intelligence systems ashore and afloat; maintaining intelligence databases, libraries and files.

Working Environment

Intelligence specialists perform most of their duties in an office or watch environment. They usually work closely with others, doing mostly analytical work, but must have the capability to work without supervision and to support the intelligence mission of the Navy on land, undersea, at sea, and in the air. IS's serve on board ships, aircraft squadrons, and various intelligence production centers located in the United States and overseas.

A-School (Job School) Information

Dam Neck, VA -- 89 calendar days

Some "A" school graduates go directly into the pipeline for advanced training in intelligence procedures and equipment. A typing test is required sometime during training.

ASVAB Score Requirement: VE + AR = 108

Security Clearance Requirement: Top Secret (With Single Scope Background Investigation)

Other Requirements

# Must have normal color perception

# Must be a U.S. Citizen

# Both the applicant and his/her immediate family members must be U.S. citizens.

# Moral turpitude offense(s) are generally disqualifying.

# Personal security screening interview will be conducted by a Naval Security Group Command Detachment Great Lakes special representative.

# Former members of the Peace Corps are not eligible.

# Must be a high school graduate or equivalent (GED, CPT, home study or other equivalency). If not a diploma graduate, applicant must provide a high school transcript verifying successful completion of the 10th grade.

There is also a very sad indictment on the American education system

According to the Guardian, the USA has 12 of the top 16 Universities in the world - including number ONE - and the other 4 are in the UK.

New Zealand has one University in the top 100 at number 65.

The American education system seems to be doing pretty well compared to everyone else on the planet.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/datablog/2009/oct/08/top-100-universities-world

"The average education level of my company was a Masters degree with most men having gone beyond that level.

The average education level of the officers was substantially less and they were a problem to manage at times. But we all coped as best we could. "

yeah right. .

To claim that a Masters degree is the average for enlisted men in an army company beggars belief.

Are "masters degrees" given out with food coupons in America?

Somewhere in your assertion is an explanation why the American military has a reputation for being reckless "cowboys",

There is also a very sad indictment on the American education system, which is hard to believe as I have met (virtually) some intelligent and well educated Americans on this forum.

During the Vietnam war the US had the draft. In the beginning there were a lot of different deferments. If you were married or in college that kept you out of the draft and away from Vietnam. There were deferments for undergraduate school and graduate school and for critical skills in war industries.

In 1967 they needed a lot of men and the eliminated many of the student deferments including most of the graduate school (Masters level) deferments. All of a sudden the US military became filled with men with degrees and advanced degrees.

When I went through basic training they lined us all up and asked anyone with a degree to step forward. Half of the 100 men stepped forward. Then they asked for anyone with a masters to step forward and 30 guys stepped forward. Then Ph D's and 10 stepped forward. Those guys got KP (kitchen) duty for the first two weeks.

All of a sudden the labor pool of the US Army was inundated with a large supply of very well educated troops.

They were shipping people to Vietnam after 6 weeks of basic training. Graduate engineers, physicists, all sorts of health and legal professionals.

It created an odd situation. The enlisted ranks became very well educated and the officers and non commissioned officers less educated.

Each command had a company that managed the command structure they called them headquarters companies. For example there was USARV, that is the United States Army Republic of Vietnam and USARV was managed by HHC USARV, headquarters and headquarters company United States Army Republic of Vietnam.

That's the basics the rest is for reading only if interested in details.

Wars are not only waged by warriors but also by thinkers and managers. Much like any normal corporation. 1 combat 8 support was the ratio during Vietnam.

WWII in the US was managed by Eastern Universities, Harvard, Yale and so on. The cream of the crop.

Vietnam was an unpopular war right from the beginning. The students who would normally have made up the officer corps from the Eastern top tier universities didn't enlist in officer training programs.

The officer training academies like West Point and Annapolis only produce a few graduates and those people are intended to fill the upper ranks. The majority of officers come from other sources like college ROTC programs. For example I was offered a commission in the Navy because of my degree and training but I would have extended my active duty from 2 years (draft) to 6 years reserve officer program. I was also offered two field commissions (rank given in combat) but again I would have needed to extend my active duty commitment another 4 years.

The Eastern Universities failure to supply officers led the command structures of Vietnam to be filled by Mid Western and Western Universities like the University of Michigan and UCLA.

Most of the enlisted men with advanced degrees were performing duties that they were way overqualified for.

Most of the staff officers performed duties that they under-qualified for. Since water seeks it's own level the duties were quickly adjusted.

The pecking order was HHC USARV, got the first pick of troops arriving in Vietnam. They pulled draftees who had graduated from a particular university and so on down the line. The photo is my first Christmas in Vietnam/Thailand. Look at the faces. 2 Ph D's three Masters degrees. These are not Rambo types these are guys right out of college. We went to work in an office every day. We all had a Vietnamese or Thai secretary. We managed the war. That's what managers do.

The Pentagon said take hill number 24. We scheduled the aircraft the bomb the hill, the fuel to power the helicopters, the bombs to bomb and the bullets to kill. The grunts had to be transported to the hill and have food and guns and medical facilities in case they got hurt. They had to have a place to stay when they weren't killing people and recreation so they wouldn't get bored or depressed. It's logistics. It takes a lot of time and resources.

Most of the people I knew in the Army were well educated, middle or upper middle class young men who just wanted to do their time and go home. Gay or straight? No body cared. There were lots of women around no one was horny. There was free beer and whiskey and cigarettes. I feel for the guys in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. That must be an awful place to have a war.

American vs English or Australian universities? I think there is enough comparative information available. American university standards then and now? Check the SAT scores.