Egypt to open Gaza crossing permanently

[philw]

" Fuel For Truth was born in the days following September 11, 2001 by a group of young, secular Jewish men "

And you have the gall to say i refer to crackpot sites

This seems to suggest that all Jews are "crackpots" even though the video was factually accurate. It is no surprise that the Israel haters ignore facts and rely on mud throwing instead.

Those who hate Israel for whatever reason to include antisemitism, have arguments and opinions that are not necessarily rendered moot simply by virtue of their bigotry.

If a person says for example, Menachem Begin was a terrorist who led the Irgun to kill many British during the Mandate, is a true statement. You do not have to be anti-semetic to point it out. The question I have is whether it is anti-goyim to keep it quiet?

The idea of "active retaliation" was the philosophy of the Irgun fighters as they terrorized both British citizens and Arabs during the British Mandate. Active retaliation, a term coined by Zionists, is also the method of terror used by Hamas.

That's a good post and nicely put.

[Steely Dan]

Norman Finklestein is a Jew and he is not crackpot. Then again, Norman does speak the truth, and not the filth spewed out from the anti defamation league that uses the holocaust as a marketing machine.

Agreed ! I also respect this man !!

I saw a documentary on this guy. If more Israeli's thought like him there could

be harmony. Another Israeli I respect is Mordechai Vanunu.

But all they want to do with people that speak the truth is lock them up for 18 years ( 11 years

in solitary confinement )

So we have the OT concerning the opening of the Rafah border crossing and yet again we have you trotting out your usual mix of conspiracy theories involving the Fed, sundry fringe self-hating Jews and that old Vanunu chestnut, he would have been stoned to death before you could say Allahu Akbar if he was a Muslim similarly offending his own. Of course all of this is as usual utterly But don't let that spoil your little circle jerk of anti-Israelisms whilst you salivate at the prospect of an increased death toll in Israel to match that of the rest of your beloved middle east. :jerk:

[midas]

" Fuel For Truth was born in the days following September 11, 2001 by a group of young, secular Jewish men "

And you have the gall to say i refer to crackpot sites

This seems to suggest that all Jews are "crackpots" even though the video was factually accurate. It is no surprise that the Israel haters ignore facts and rely on mud throwing instead.

That is your interpretation entirely !

I was accused earlier of quoting from " crackpot sites " because they don't support the Israeli position.

But i didn't claim my sources are more or less " crackpot " than Fuel For Truth - to certain Israeli's anyway

And when you say the video is " factually accurate " - by whose standards ? by the standards of a " a group of young, secular Jewish men ".

Can someone less biased than " a group of young, secular Jewish men " please verify its accuracy ?

[Ulysses G.]

One of the Israeli Governments first actions after Independence was to declare Irgun a terrorist organization and make them illegal.

The PLO has just joined with Hamas and both organizations have embraced terrorism against civilians as a tactic for decades. There really is no comparing the two situations honestly.

[Steely Dan]

" Fuel For Truth was born in the days following September 11, 2001 by a group of young, secular Jewish men "

And you have the gall to say i refer to crackpot sites

This seems to suggest that all Jews are "crackpots" even though the video was factually accurate. It is no surprise that the Israel haters ignore facts and rely on mud throwing instead.

That is your interpretation entirely !

I was accused earlier of quoting from " crackpot sites " because they don't support the Israeli position.

But i didn't claim my sources are more or less " crackpot " than Fuel For Truth - to certain Israeli's anyway

And when you say the video is " factually accurate " - by whose standards ? by the standards of a " a group of young, secular Jewish men ".

Can someone less biased than " a group of young, secular Jewish men " please verify its accuracy ?

How about the Red cross?

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/thereturnofgl/grumpylarry/3642/people-are-starving-in-gaza-due-to-the-israeli-blockade/

This statement by the Red Cross gives the lie to the liberal lefties who for years have been saying that the people of Gaza are living in dire conditions.

The problem is not helped by the west and it’s multi billion dollar hand outs. Until that is stopped there is no incentive for the people to do any constructive work and stop being holy warriors.

[Ulysses G.]

Can someone less biased than " a group of young, secular Jewish men " please verify its accuracy ?

You are doing it again.

You have no problem accepting Norman Finklestein's lies even though he is Jewish, but strongly imply that " a group of young, secular Jewish men " are "crackpots" even though the Red Cross - among many others - has validated the facts that they have presented with photographic evidence.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I was accused earlier of quoting from " crackpot sites "...

If the shoe fits...

[kuffki]

Anyway getting back on topic. With the Egypt Gaza border open, I hope now that oppressed will have the tools to unload their fury on the oppressors. Israel may very well get their just desserts.

So you are looking for a total war then, is that it? Lovely.

No I want peace for the Palestinians. Build a big wall around my house and see where it gets you.

I think all you need is little legal education and you should be fine.

if i build a wall around your house, blocking everything and anything BUT the wall is on my land, the only place it will lend you if you try to jump it or remove would be jail.

By law, i can erect anything i like as long as its on my land, however if i can prove in court that your trash or whatever else interferes with my "normal" life, not only i can build the wall but have your trash removed by force.

Just like if you park on my driveway, blocking me in, i have full right to have your car towed to location of my choice and not have it released until you pay me the towing i had to pay.

Edited April 30, 2011 by kuffki

[kuffki]

At least there might be a level playing field now, and please don't give me that Israel protecting it's citizens dribble.

Speaking of "dribble". Like any any other counntry would allow terrorists to just shoot rockets at them.

The real terrorists are the Israelis.

Again , little education should set you on your way

What does Terrorism mean?

The calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.

http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/terrorism.htm

[kuffki]

Bridge, you possibly may not be aware of the laws but from Israel side it is up to the country to close or open borders and up to that country to decide who enter and who does not.

As for the other side of Gaza, this was closed by the Egypt and rightfully so.

Let's see what you will say once "legal " Hamas starts to fire more "legal" rockets and "illegal" Israel responds to protect it's citizen's of course( illegally), who would be to blame then?

No need to answer, many of us already know it.

Kuffki,

At least there might be a level playing field now, and please don't give me that Israel protecting it's citizens dribble.

Bridge

I guess the cards are out on the table. Hamas and it's faithful supporters including yourself are looking for a war!

They do and say anything, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.

However once get one(the war) and get backsides kicked, start to scream how poor innocent people who want nothing but peace.

3-4 Arab states already tried it twice and it took them about 60 years to rebuild their army, which is still hardly a threat, yet some delusional people, still believe you have chance? I guess 2 out of 3 was not good enough lesson

Japanese have an excellent saying

Only death will cure a fool. / You can't fix stupid. http://www.linguanaut.com/japanese_sayings.htm

[Ulysses G.]

However once get one(the war) and get backsides kicked, start to scream how poor innocent people who want nothing but peace.

Only death will cure a fool. / You can't fix stupid. http://www.linguanau...ese_sayings.htm

Excellent post.

Let Hamas and Co. start another war and then watch the whining and moaning of the left begin when Israel retaliates.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[kuffki]

Hopefully this opening will eventually lead to an end to the Israel problem that the world has been dealing with for the last 60 years.

Interesting you bring up Israel problem. The only problem Israel has is Palestine.

So called "Israel Problem" Palestine has or other arab states is really their problem.

Here is an excellent article for you, i suggest you read it entirely

Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious

http://www.atimes.co...t/KH18Ak01.html

Some Highlights to make it more fun to read

-The Palestinians are one of many groups displaced by the population exchanges that followed World War II, and the only ones whose great-grandchildren still have the legal status of refugees. Why are they still there? The simplest explanation is that they like it there, because they are much better off than people of similar capacities in other Arab countries.

-Data confirm that Palestinians enjoy a higher living standard than their Arab neighbors. A fail-safe gauge is life expectancy. The West Bank and Gaza show better numbers than most of the Muslim world:

Life Expectancy by Country in YearsOman75.6Bahrain75.6West Bank and Gaza73.4Saudi Arabia72.8Jordan72.5Algeria72.3Turkey71.8Egypt71.3Morocco71.2Iran71.0Pakistan65.5Yemen62.7Sudan58.6Somalia48.2Source: United Nations

Literacy in the Palestinian Authority domain is 92.4%, equal to that of Singapore. That is far better than the 71.4% in Egypt, or 80.8% in Syria.

-Palestinian Arabs are highly literate, richer and healthier than people in most other Arab countries, thanks to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the blackmail payments of Western as well as Arab governments. As refugees, they live longer and better than their counterparts in adjacent Arab countries. It is not surprising that they do not want to be absorbed into other Arab countries and cease to be refugees.

-If the Palestinians ceased to be refugees, moreover, it is not clear how they would maintain their relatively advantaged position. They cannot return to farming; for all the tears about bulldozed olive groves, no one in the West Bank will ever make a living selling olive oil, except perhaps by selling "Holy Land" products to Christian tourists.

Edited April 30, 2011 by kuffki

[Ulysses G.]

-Palestinian Arabs are highly literate, richer and healthier than people in most other Arab countries, thanks to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the blackmail payments of Western as well as Arab governments. As refugees, they live longer and better than their counterparts in adjacent Arab countries. It is not surprising that they do not want to be absorbed into other Arab countries and cease to be refugees.

-If the Palestinians ceased to be refugees, moreover, it is not clear how they would maintain their relatively advantaged position. They cannot return to farming; for all the tears about bulldozed olive groves, no one in the West Bank will ever make a living selling olive oil, except perhaps by selling "Holy Land" products to Christian tourists.

Don't confuse the Hamas enablers with actual facts.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[bridge]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

[Steely Dan]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

Truth hurts does it?

[kuffki]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

The Palestinian Arabs stop declaring war and quit refusing peace deals, their suffering will be replaced by their own state.

"If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no war. If Israel lays down its arms there will be no Israel"

That and The Palestinians cannot form a normal state. They cannot emigrate to Arab countries without accepting a catastrophic decline in living standards, and very few can emigrate to Western countries. The optimal solution for the Palestinians is to demand a state and blackmail Western and Arab donors with the threat of violence, but never actually get one.

"As long as all concerned understand that the comedy is not supposed to have an ending, the Palestinians can persist quite tolerably in their "intolerable" predicament. " Norman A Bailey

[Steely Dan]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

The Palestinian Arabs stop declaring war and quit refusing peace deals, their suffering will be replaced by their own state.

"If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no war. If Israel lays down its arms there will be no Israel"

That and The Palestinians cannot form a normal state. They cannot emigrate to Arab countries without accepting a catastrophic decline in living standards, and very few can emigrate to Western countries. The optimal solution for the Palestinians is to demand a state and blackmail Western and Arab donors with the threat of violence, but never actually get one.

"As long as all concerned understand that the comedy is not supposed to have an ending, the Palestinians can persist quite tolerably in their "intolerable" predicament. " Norman A Bailey

And they have to keep crying wolf to the liberal lefties in order to keep their "intolerable" living standards courtesy of the highest per capita aid in the world. When the Rafah crossing opens I wouldn't be surprised if a wave of Egyptian economic refugees descend on Gaza, which coming to think of it was how the mess started in the first place with Arab economic migrants settling in the British mandate lands.

[kuffki]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

The Palestinian Arabs stop declaring war and quit refusing peace deals, their suffering will be replaced by their own state.

"If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no war. If Israel lays down its arms there will be no Israel"

That and The Palestinians cannot form a normal state. They cannot emigrate to Arab countries without accepting a catastrophic decline in living standards, and very few can emigrate to Western countries. The optimal solution for the Palestinians is to demand a state and blackmail Western and Arab donors with the threat of violence, but never actually get one.

"As long as all concerned understand that the comedy is not supposed to have an ending, the Palestinians can persist quite tolerably in their "intolerable" predicament. " Norman A Bailey

And they have to keep crying wolf to the liberal lefties in order to keep their "intolerable" living standards courtesy of the highest per capita aid in the world. When the Rafah crossing opens I wouldn't be surprised if a wave of Egyptian economic refugees descend on Gaza, which coming to think of it was how the mess started in the first place with Arab economic migrants settling in the British mandate lands.

Just look at the facts, Westbank has had its independence for years and yet all they do is continue living of the aid and demand more and more and more. They are not capable even dealing with what they have but already want more.

[JUDAS]

The award winning documentary Occupation 101 - Voices of the Silenced Majority shows the oppression the Palestinians have been under at the hands of the Israelis.

I'm watching this on youtube atm. Certainly interesting viewing and, at least in my case, time consuming as I frequently stop it to do some fact checking. Whilst I never thought for one minute that Israel was without fault in this conflict, as some posters would have us believe, this documentary has opened my eyes wider.

[geriatrickid]

Back to the border crossing. It is unfortunate some of the "experts: are clueless as to what goes on at the Egyptian border crossing. The Palestinian arabs are basically harassed and shaken down by both the Egyptians and Hamas. It is "normal" for the Palestinian arbas to have to bribe both Hamas and Egyptian guards & officials to obtain passage.

It seems that some have conveniently forgotten that when the Egyptian crossing was open, Hamas regularly forbade Palestinian arabs from crossing. This is no big secret and one can read the litany of complaints if one does a google search. The inflated prices charged for basics on the Egyptian side of the border makes the Thai approach to double pricing seem kind and generous in comparison.

Lost in the discussion is that the Palestinian arabs would prefer to use the Israeli crossing(s). The reason is that the passage while annoying and at times considered humiliating, operates more efficiently and without the worry and cost of bribery and extortion on the Israeli side. The only ones demanding bribes or stealing as an acceptable practice are on the arab side of the crossing. The burden of corruption on the typical Palestinian arab is unimaginable to those that have not experienced it first hand. Not every Gaza resident is a terrorist and some just want to get on with their lives. Unfortunately, they are trapped in a place where the crazies run free.

[flying]

I really don't care if people drumming up war in the Middle east take offense.

Then perhaps you would have a word with Obama & Hillary

[Jingthing]

The vile pro Israel lobby that has raised it's ugly head on this forum, with absolutely no compassion whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinians just reinforces my view of what should happen to the state of Israel. Unfortunately forum rules prevent me from posting those views.

You know, you really DIDN'T need to announce that. Anyone paying attention to your obvious hatred of everything Israel figured out what you want to happen to Israel LONG AGO. Yes, Virginia, reading between the lines isn't exactly rocket science with a poster like you. Well, time will tell, but in the meantime I am thinking of that famous Lily Allen song ...

Edited April 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[bridge]

The award winning documentary Occupation 101 - Voices of the Silenced Majority shows the oppression the Palestinians have been under at the hands of the Israelis.

I'm watching this on youtube atm. Certainly interesting viewing and, at least in my case, time consuming as I frequently stop it to do some fact checking. Whilst I never thought for one minute that Israel was without fault in this conflict, as some posters would have us believe, this documentary has opened my eyes wider.

It is a moving documentary. Here is a link to the trailer on you tube Occupation 101 - Trailer

[Ulysses G.]

More B.S. from the usual characters. It is kind of interesting that he is using the Jewish and Zionist sources that he always rails against when anyone else uses them. However, as usual, he is using passages out of context to distort history.

When Israel achieved its independence on May 14, 1948, the Haganah became the de facto Israeli army. On that day, the country was invaded by the regular forces of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria. Eleven days later, Israel's provisional government issued an order that provided the legal framework for the country's armed forces. The order established the official name Zvah Haganah Le Yisrael and outlawed the existence of any other military force within Israel. The dissident Irgun and Stern Gang were reluctant to disband. Fighting between Irgun and regular military forces broke out on June 21 when the supply ship Altalena arrived at Tel Aviv with 900 men and a load of arms and ammunition for the Irgun. The army sank the ship, destroying the arms, and many members of the Irgun were arrested; both organizations disbanded shortly thereafter.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/israel1948.htm

Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare."^[63]

The Israeli government, in September 1948, acting in response to the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, outlawed the Irgun and Lehi groups, declaring them terrorist organizations under the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance.^[3]

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun}

[Steely Dan]

Back to the border crossing. It is unfortunate some of the "experts: are clueless as to what goes on at the Egyptian border crossing. The Palestinian arabs are basically harassed and shaken down by both the Egyptians and Hamas. It is "normal" for the Palestinian arbas to have to bribe both Hamas and Egyptian guards & officials to obtain passage.

It seems that some have conveniently forgotten that when the Egyptian crossing was open, Hamas regularly forbade Palestinian arabs from crossing. This is no big secret and one can read the litany of complaints if one does a google search. The inflated prices charged for basics on the Egyptian side of the border makes the Thai approach to double pricing seem kind and generous in comparison.

Lost in the discussion is that the Palestinian arabs would prefer to use the Israeli crossing(s). The reason is that the passage while annoying and at times considered humiliating, operates more efficiently and without the worry and cost of bribery and extortion on the Israeli side. The only ones demanding bribes or stealing as an acceptable practice are on the arab side of the crossing. The burden of corruption on the typical Palestinian arab is unimaginable to those that have not experienced it first hand. Not every Gaza resident is a terrorist and some just want to get on with their lives. Unfortunately, they are trapped in a place where the crazies run free.

You are forgetting that a much better standard of behaviour is expected demanded from the Israelis. The Egyptian border guards and suppliers are lining their own pockets in the accepted way for Arabs in positions of authority. Hamas are doing likewise. You really need to receive far more aid than would otherwise be needed in order to compensate for this reality.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Steely Dan

[coma]

Anyone who followed the uprising knew this would happen as solidarity with Palestinians was the single unifying factor of the divers groups. That is equally true across the whole Arab and wider Muslim world. The people (maybe not the unelected governments) sympathise with the Palestinians and the uprisings mean even those hard regimes that survive will have to take this into account. One difference now is the level of solidarity is starting to spread into non-Muslim countries. There is a momentum for the Palestinians to get something not on terms dictated by others. This is also what has driven Fatah-Hamas reproachment as even they are aware of the way things are going and they have to move with the feeling.

Perfectly said.

[geriatrickid]

This thread is not about the Irgun or Jerusalem. It is about Egypt's decision to announce the reopening of a crossing into Gaza..

If the Egyptians sympathize with the Palestinian arabs they will put an end to the shakedowns and forced bribes at the border crossing. And they will stop the price gouging by merchants.

[metisdead]

Many of the other posts made here do not seem to address the topic at hand and posts have been deleted. Given that, and the fact that many posters just cannot seem to be able to moderate themselves when it comes to these topics, it is time to close this thread as it is surely to continue to go off topic.

CLOSED