I have just gotta admit, the retreats on this thread have been on a par with the brilliant withdrawlal from the gates of Stalingrad by Manstein.

Bit harsh there Mossy.

Manstein led the attempt to relieve Stalingrad after being appointed to lead the army group Don. However he never quite made it to Stalingrad to relieve the 6th Army. He pulled back after Paulus

refused to attack from within the Russian ring ( he also refused to commit suicide ) and his Romanian, Italian and Hungarian allies on the wings got yet another kicking as his nose was blooded by the jolly Russki.

The Russians probably committed the greatest mass raping in history as they swarmed into Germany ( much like the Japanese in China ). Not sure the German ladies dress sense had a fat lot to do with it, more the male power thing which I believe to this day, is there in the weak willed of the male species.

However he never quite made it

Hence my statement 'from the gates', I should have added a kilometre or two, perhaps.

von Paulus couldn't break out to meet Manstein, he was ordered to hold to the last man from Hitler and then promoted to Field Marshall and told no German Field Marshall had ever been captured, hence the order to commit suicide, which he refused on account of being Catholic. (All from memory, so perhaps not exactly word perfect)

My point was, after the defeat at Stalingrad, it is generally acknowledged that Mansteins fighting retreat was brilliant, out numbered and out gunned he was even able to command a counter attack that enabled a better, if not ultimately defeated defence of the Rhine allowing a greater amount of women and children to reach the safety!! of the Western Allies.

A further analogy, does anyone on here have a striking resemblance to von Paulus?

A yet further anology, have I ever told the story of the black haired dwarves from the Narnia books?

That has just gotta be another thread....

My discomfort isn't directed at any particular post or poster. It's that the thread seems to be discussing how a rapist picks his victims...with an emphasis on the victims behavior/appearance.

I have just gotta admit, the retreats on this thread have been on a par with the brilliant withdrawlal from the gates of Stalingrad by Manstein.

Bit harsh there Mossy.

Manstein led the attempt to relieve Stalingrad after being appointed to lead the army group Don. However he never quite made it to Stalingrad to relieve the 6th Army. He pulled back after Paulus

refused to attack from within the Russian ring ( he also refused to commit suicide ) and his Romanian, Italian and Hungarian allies on the wings got yet another kicking as his nose was blooded by the jolly Russki.

The Russians probably committed the greatest mass raping in history as they swarmed into Germany ( much like the Japanese in China ). Not sure the German ladies dress sense had a fat lot to do with it, more the male power thing which I believe to this day, is there in the weak willed of the male species.

However he never quite made it

Hence my statement 'from the gates', I should have added a kilometre or two, perhaps.

von Paulus couldn't break out to meet Manstein, he was ordered to hold to the last man from Hitler and then promoted to Field Marshall and told no German Field Marshall had ever been captured, hence the order to commit suicide, which he refused on account of being Catholic. (All from memory, so perhaps not exactly word perfect)

My point was, after the defeat at Stalingrad, it is generally acknowledged that Mansteins fighting retreat was brilliant, out numbered and out gunned he was even able to command a counter attack that enabled a better, if not ultimately defeated defence of the Rhine allowing a greater amount of women and children to reach the safety!! of the Western Allies.

A further analogy, does anyone on here have a striking resemblance to von Paulus?

A yet further anology, have I ever told the story of the black haired dwarves from the Narnia books?

That has just gotta be another thread....

That would be just about right. His son was with him inside the ring and Paulus pushed him through the last gap before closure. Young Adolf was so up set he never promoted anyone to Field Marshal rank again.

What about them dwarfs eh !!!!

This whole page seems to have drifted off the topic - which is a Canadian policeman's remarks about dress/potential to encourage a rapist and certain women's reaction to those remarks.

With regard to rapists - there are thousands of triggers that can set a man off. Certain styles of dress are some of those triggers. If the man is low on control then these triggers can develop into rape scenarios. Low on control can be caused by many things - poor education, low self-esteem, alcohol, tiredness, anger, so on.

Not talking about serial rapists, either in the home or out in the world - these are a special case and need serious medical treatment to stop them. But the one-off events - how to lower the frequency - is where the Canadian cop was coming from.

And risk assessment / risk reduction / education of the public is necessary as with other crimes.

I am sure that all on this forum are looking at the same end result - possible reduction of numbers of rapes committed. So stop all this stupid 'I said / you said' and contribute ideas that may help the target result we all want.

Well, I'm about to make myself as popular as a pork pie in a synagogue with some but here goes.

No surprise that the majority of rapes occur indoors, that's to be expected as the majority of ALL crime is committed by a perpetrator who knows his/her victim.

Rapists come in many guises the true mentally ill variety may be attracted to a "mother" figure or any other iconic presentation that sets of their psychosis. In general, what is worn is about as relevant as hair colour, glasses, age etc , etc.

The clothing debate for me does not include these " sick" people, as the dress is just another trigger in a long line of possibilities, each as likely as each other.

The dress issue ( for me !!) Is about misunderstanding messages. Weak willed people fuelled by chemical substances, may well have a tendency to revert to the primeval , which is just under the surface of us all. In the big time clock of life on earth, we ( humans) really are a late edition and the veneer of civilisation we purport to have is just that, a thin veneer. We still fight, murder and kill at a tribal whim, and the fight or flight trigger in all animals has not been conquered and never will be.

I do not believe ladies do their hair, put on their most alluring dress and make-up to watch the nightly soap on the telly. The putting on of the finery is there to attract and Impress as much if not more than ever it is to make the wearer feel good. To be honest, the "I only put it on for me" argument is a sham and may be truthful in 0.0009 percent of the population. Men are no different. The majority ( well those not from Essex ) go to the pub in their best on a Friday night to send a message. Now what that message maybe is where the problems occur. In the UK for a male it maybe look at my " Stone Island " sweater.......I'm hard. It may be look at my Italian suit.....I make money. Nine times out of ten with a single male, it is to put himself in a shop window to attract the opposite sex; no different to a strutting Peacock, a roaring Lion, or a chest pounding Gorilla.

Ladies? Sorry girls no difference. The clothes you wear send a message. What that message is known by you and by you alone, but the interpretation is open to the eye of the beholder, every single time. It may be, 'Look at me. I'm sexy, well dressed, but I'm out for a night with the girls, so don't touch ". It may be just the opposite. However, it is naive in the extreme and downright silly to get on your high horse and say i can wear what I want,when I want, whenever I want and it shouldn't matter. Silly because deep down you are aware that you are sending messages all the time to members of the opposite sex. Gestures, glances, the clothes you wear all send out these subliminal and often not so subliminal messages. What you can't control,Is how they are received and interpreted, thus you must understand and take precautions against ( sorry but true ), any mis-interpretation by a pissed up, drugged up, small dicked male, who reads you wrong and uses dutch courage to attack.

Should you be allowed to wear what you like whenever you like, and wherever you feel like it ...OF COURSE. In a perfect civilised world that should be the case. But we are not in a world where such a state of Nirvana exists, nor in any of our life times, will we ever be. Can a white man walk the streets of handsworth in Birmingham or East LA in a KK outfit and expect that his message of " Im allowed my political freedom in this country so I'll wear what I like, and expect free passage " to be heard, understood and respected ? I think not. Same principle i'm afraid, people must be aware of the dangers that exist whether you like them or not, and use appropriate caution.

So ladies, by all means wear what you like in the inner cities, country villages, wherever....But be aware of the possible mis-understandings that may occur and be cautious. Please don't take a political high horse position and leave yourself open to attack from the spotty faced nerd who if sober, would never have the balls to say hi, just because you think you are protected by your moral right to do whatever you want with impunity.

:clap2:

I you too Limpy......

Much appreciate the contribution, suiging.

And thanks also to the mods for not closing this one.

^A thread being closed in Bedlam? Unthinkable.

I think some posters are getting really mixed up about sexual attraction and rape. Being stimulated by someone is very, very different from rape.

Rape is a violent crime and is generally not about being stimulated. Women are not raped because they are 'desirable' to the rapist. They are raped because he hates them and hates what they represent. He wishes to control and humiliate them.

Well, I'm about to make myself as popular as a pork pie in a synagogue with some but here goes.

No surprise that the majority of rapes occur indoors, that's to be expected as the majority of ALL crime is committed by a perpetrator who knows his/her victim.

Rapists come in many guises the true mentally ill variety may be attracted to a "mother" figure or any other iconic presentation that sets of their psychosis. In general, what is worn is about as relevant as hair colour, glasses, age etc , etc.

The clothing debate for me does not include these " sick" people, as the dress is just another trigger in a long line of possibilities, each as likely as each other.

The dress issue ( for me !!) Is about misunderstanding messages. Weak willed people fuelled by chemical substances, may well have a tendency to revert to the primeval , which is just under the surface of us all. In the big time clock of life on earth, we ( humans) really are a late edition and the veneer of civilisation we purport to have is just that, a thin veneer. We still fight, murder and kill at a tribal whim, and the fight or flight trigger in all animals has not been conquered and never will be.

I do not believe ladies do their hair, put on their most alluring dress and make-up to watch the nightly soap on the telly. The putting on of the finery is there to attract and Impress as much if not more than ever it is to make the wearer feel good. To be honest, the "I only put it on for me" argument is a sham and may be truthful in 0.0009 percent of the population. Men are no different. The majority ( well those not from Essex ) go to the pub in their best on a Friday night to send a message. Now what that message maybe is where the problems occur. In the UK for a male it maybe look at my " Stone Island " sweater.......I'm hard. It may be look at my Italian suit.....I make money. Nine times out of ten with a single male, it is to put himself in a shop window to attract the opposite sex; no different to a strutting Peacock, a roaring Lion, or a chest pounding Gorilla.

Ladies? Sorry girls no difference. The clothes you wear send a message. What that message is known by you and by you alone, but the interpretation is open to the eye of the beholder, every single time. It may be, 'Look at me. I'm sexy, well dressed, but I'm out for a night with the girls, so don't touch ". It may be just the opposite. However, it is naive in the extreme and downright silly to get on your high horse and say i can wear what I want,when I want, whenever I want and it shouldn't matter. Silly because deep down you are aware that you are sending messages all the time to members of the opposite sex. Gestures, glances, the clothes you wear all send out these subliminal and often not so subliminal messages. What you can't control,Is how they are received and interpreted, thus you must understand and take precautions against ( sorry but true ), any mis-interpretation by a pissed up, drugged up, small dicked male, who reads you wrong and uses dutch courage to attack.

Should you be allowed to wear what you like whenever you like, and wherever you feel like it ...OF COURSE. In a perfect civilised world that should be the case. But we are not in a world where such a state of Nirvana exists, nor in any of our life times, will we ever be. Can a white man walk the streets of handsworth in Birmingham or East LA in a KK outfit and expect that his message of " Im allowed my political freedom in this country so I'll wear what I like, and expect free passage " to be heard, understood and respected ? I think not. Same principle i'm afraid, people must be aware of the dangers that exist whether you like them or not, and use appropriate caution.

So ladies, by all means wear what you like in the inner cities, country villages, wherever....But be aware of the possible mis-understandings that may occur and be cautious. Please don't take a political high horse position and leave yourself open to attack from the spotty faced nerd who if sober, would never have the balls to say hi, just because you think you are protected by your moral right to do whatever you want with impunity.

well done. Eloquently presented.

It's just what a few of us have been saying, albeit not so succunctly.

I think some posters are getting really mixed up about sexual attraction and rape. Being stimulated by someone is very, very different from rape.

Rape is a violent crime and is generally not about being stimulated. Women are not raped because they are 'desirable' to the rapist. They are raped because he hates them and hates what they represent. He wishes to control and humiliate them.

Good description of the mentally ill rapist, however does not really cover the frustrated, drunk nineteen year old Virgin who will not take no for an answer, or the macho male either bowing to peer group pressure or doing the most outrageous acts to gain acceptance.

These idiots are the reality of city streets in a great number of countries.

I think some posters are getting really mixed up about sexual attraction and rape. Being stimulated by someone is very, very different from rape.

Rape is a violent crime and is generally not about being stimulated. Women are not raped because they are 'desirable' to the rapist. They are raped because he hates them and hates what they represent. He wishes to control and humiliate them.

Yes, and no.

You are right that rape, in it's most violent form, is about power/hate etc. Perhaps even the commonest form?

You are not quite completely right though. Consider date rape and marital rape. Think about whatever it is in the minds of granny rapists and child rapists.

As has been expressed several times in this thread, rape comes in many forms, with a variety of motives.

I am sure that most date rapes are about stimulation, arousal, and loss of control, not about hate or power.

I think some posters are getting really mixed up about sexual attraction and rape. Being stimulated by someone is very, very different from rape.

Rape is a violent crime and is generally not about being stimulated. Women are not raped because they are 'desirable' to the rapist. They are raped because he hates them and hates what they represent. He wishes to control and humiliate them.

Good description of the mentally ill rapist, however does not really cover the frustrated, drunk nineteen year old Virgin who will not take no for an answer, or the macho male either bowing to peer group pressure or doing the most outrageous acts to gain acceptance.

These idiots are the reality of city streets in a great number of countries.

Don't forget to add to the mix the "no means yes" myth.

There are cases where both a man and a woman are turned on by very physical sex, even to the point where she is saying "no" but actually truly wants more, and there are cases where the woman has her "dignity" to save and says no, but realy means yes.......and that has given rise to a "myth: that no means yes. Some less enlightend men take the myth as an all-cases truth....and that is dangerous for women.

Here's a question and I hope both sides of this debate offer an opinion:

I'm having sex with a married woman (very consensual). I am about 10 seconds from climax when we hear her husband pull up outside. She moves to jump out of bed because she doesn't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught either, but heck...I'm just about there!...so I strengthen my grip on her shoulders and force her to continue. She struggles for the 10 seconds that it takes until I relax my hold, and release her, sated.

Did I just rape her?

Technically? Morally? In law? Not at all? Yes, but in a minor way? No, it was understandable?

Am I a rapist?

(And in answering, don't be distracted by my "no means yes myth" comment in the preceding post.....I draw no connection here, it's simply consecutive posts)

I can assure you that I am quite right. I worked with sex offenders in a prison. Do you honestly believe that a young man who is emotionally attracted to a girl would drug her and rape her? Do you think that he would physically overpower her--the physical resistance would be enough for most men to lose complete interest in sex.

The men who rape and molest are some of the saddest characters on earth. With the exception of a few sociopaths who can be quite charming, these are extremely lonely individuals who have been unable to form a close human bond with anyone. They are moralistic (yes, some are even religious in the extreme)and they are rigid.

Normal men feel a level of protectiveness and compassion for the opposite sex. Men will go to great extents to win the affection of women they desire--they've even been known to go to war over it.

Here's a question and I hope both sides of this debate offer an opinion:

I'm having sex with a married woman (very consensual). I am about 10 seconds from climax when we hear her husband pull up outside. She moves to jump out of bed because she doesn't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught either, but heck...I'm just about there!...so I strengthen my grip on her shoulders and force her to continue. She struggles for the 10 seconds that it takes until I relax my hold, sated.

Did I just rape her?

I suggest you stop being so tight and get a proper lawyer.......................

Here's a question and I hope both sides of this debate offer an opinion:

I'm having sex with a married woman (very consensual). I am about 10 seconds from climax when we hear her husband pull up outside. She moves to jump out of bed because she doesn't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught either, but heck...I'm just about there!...so I strengthen my grip on her shoulders and force her to continue. She struggles for the 10 seconds that it takes until I relax my hold, sated.

Did I just rape her?

I suggest you stop being so tight and get a proper lawyer.......................

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if you have your Bedlam hat on or your coppers helmet. I assure you I don't need a lawyer.

Here's a question and I hope both sides of this debate offer an opinion:

I'm having sex with a married woman (very consensual). I am about 10 seconds from climax when we hear her husband pull up outside. She moves to jump out of bed because she doesn't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught either, but heck...I'm just about there!...so I strengthen my grip on her shoulders and force her to continue. She struggles for the 10 seconds that it takes until I relax my hold, sated.

Did I just rape her?

I suggest you stop being so tight and get a proper lawyer.......................

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if you have your Bedlam hat on or your coppers helmet. I assure you I don't need a lawyer.

Keep my helmet out of this..................

I can assure you that I am quite right. I worked with sex offenders in a prison. Do you honestly believe that a young man who is emotionally attracted to a girl would drug her and rape her? Do you think that he would physically overpower her--the physical resistance would be enough for most men to lose complete interest in sex.

The men who rape and molest are some of the saddest characters on earth. With the exception of a few sociopaths who can be quite charming, these are extremely lonely individuals who have been unable to form a close human bond with anyone. They are moralistic (yes, some are even religious in the extreme)and they are rigid.

Normal men feel a level of protectiveness and compassion for the opposite sex. Men will go to great extents to win the affection of women they desire--they've even been known to go to war over it.

You are absolutely right about the prison population rapist. However I would say that the vast majority of rapists never see the inside of a jail. These "normal" (relative term ) are the thugs and louts I referred to who plague inner cities and get away with just about anything including rape as their victims either through shame, fear or again peer pressure do not come forward

I can assure you that I am quite right. I worked with sex offenders in a prison. Do you honestly believe that a young man who is emotionally attracted to a girl would drug her and rape her? Do you think that he would physically overpower her--the physical resistance would be enough for most men to lose complete interest in sex.

The men who rape and molest are some of the saddest characters on earth. With the exception of a few sociopaths who can be quite charming, these are extremely lonely individuals who have been unable to form a close human bond with anyone. They are moralistic (yes, some are even religious in the extreme)and they are rigid.

Normal men feel a level of protectiveness and compassion for the opposite sex. Men will go to great extents to win the affection of women they desire--they've even been known to go to war over it.

You are absolutely right about the prison population rapist. However I would say that the vast majority of rapists never see the inside of a jail. These "normal" (relative term ) are the thugs and louts I referred to who plague inner cities and get away with just about anything including rape as their victims either through shame, fear or again peer pressure do not come forward

And it it some of THOSE rapists that are the subject of this thread.

I can assure you that I am quite right. I worked with sex offenders in a prison. Do you honestly believe that a young man who is emotionally attracted to a girl would drug her and rape her? Do you think that he would physically overpower her--the physical resistance would be enough for most men to lose complete interest in sex.

The men who rape and molest are some of the saddest characters on earth. With the exception of a few sociopaths who can be quite charming, these are extremely lonely individuals who have been unable to form a close human bond with anyone. They are moralistic (yes, some are even religious in the extreme)and they are rigid.

Normal men feel a level of protectiveness and compassion for the opposite sex. Men will go to great extents to win the affection of women they desire--they've even been known to go to war over it.

You are absolutely right about the prison population rapist. However I would say that the vast majority of rapists never see the inside of a jail. These "normal" (relative term ) are the thugs and louts I referred to who plague inner cities and get away with just about anything including rape as their victims either through shame, fear or again peer pressure do not come forward

And it it some of THOSE rapists that are the subject of this thread.

Quite............

Here's a question and I hope both sides of this debate offer an opinion:

I'm having sex with a married woman (very consensual). I am about 10 seconds from climax when we hear her husband pull up outside. She moves to jump out of bed because she doesn't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught either, but heck...I'm just about there!...so I strengthen my grip on her shoulders and force her to continue. She struggles for the 10 seconds that it takes until I relax my hold, sated.

Did I just rape her?

I suggest you stop being so tight and get a proper lawyer.......................

Hmmmm, I'm not sure if you have your Bedlam hat on or your coppers helmet. I assure you I don't need a lawyer.

Keep my helmet out of this..................

Believe me, with Neverdie about to make land, I would not even think about your helmet for fear of his jealousy over you.

I never knew he could do that !!!!!!!

I can assure you that I am quite right. I worked with sex offenders in a prison. Do you honestly believe that a young man who is emotionally attracted to a girl would drug her and rape her? Do you think that he would physically overpower her--the physical resistance would be enough for most men to lose complete interest in sex.

The men who rape and molest are some of the saddest characters on earth. With the exception of a few sociopaths who can be quite charming, these are extremely lonely individuals who have been unable to form a close human bond with anyone. They are moralistic (yes, some are even religious in the extreme)and they are rigid.

Normal men feel a level of protectiveness and compassion for the opposite sex. Men will go to great extents to win the affection of women they desire--they've even been known to go to war over it.

You are absolutely right about the prison population rapist. However I would say that the vast majority of rapists never see the inside of a jail. These "normal" (relative term ) are the thugs and louts I referred to who plague inner cities and get away with just about anything including rape as their victims either through shame, fear or again peer pressure do not come forward

And it it some of THOSE rapists that are the subject of this thread.

Quite............

Ditto.

Scott's position illustrates the emotive nature of the subject and how if taken from one perspective folk can get quite cross with other folk who look at the subject from a different angle.

Looking at the whole thread, don't feel anyone has been disrespectful ( apart from me with a couple of bedlamised replies) just a bunch of guys and gals quite rightly outraged by these perverts, but just ever so slightly "misunderstanding ' each others valid points of view

Peace

Does dressing sexy = being dressed as a slut?

Does dressing sexy = being dressed as a slut?

Eye of the beholder. One man's slut ( or woman's) is an others best dressed on the runway.........

Does dressing sexy = being dressed as a slut?

No. Which is the answer you're seeking, but is not significant to the discussion.

Lets not play with semantics here to try to win the debate.. "Provocative", "sexy", "slutty"..... Whatever.

This is a serious discussion about a serious topic and using semantics to score debate points is, in my view, frivolous.

Does dressing sexy = being dressed as a slut?

No. Which is the answer you're seeking, but is not significant to the discussion.

Lets not play with semantics here to try to win the debate.. "Provocative", "sexy", "slutty"..... Whatever.

This is a serious discussion about a serious topic and using semantics to score debate points is, in my view, frivolous.

"Tying to win"?

What's the point of a discussion if people can't express their point. Should some just stay quiet so the other can sit about agreeing with each other?

Besides, suiging has already answered my question perfectly IMO. I'll take no further part in this thread, I most definitely am not going to be dragged into bickering.

I just posted the smiley but I edited to say something about Ian being accused of running.........but there is no point.

You suprise and disappoint me.....not that I want to continue the discussion or goad anybody to say anything further for the sake of arguing.... just that your exit was, in my opinion, a tad disingenuous.

A concession that our point has been made and accepted would have been honourable.

Never mind....you're still ok in my books.