I was in one of the last intakes for National Service in Britain in the 50s. It was quite a shock to me, coming from a sheltered public school/middle class background, and suddenly mixing with "all kinds and conditions of men". But I think it did all of us good in the long run, perhaps most importantly by instilling a sense of discipline, especially self-discipline. Admittedly I had a fairly cushy time, being in the RAF, and spending most of my National Service at RAF Changi.

One of the causes of the recent riots in London and other cities seems to have been the breakdown of this sense of discipline, which has been eroded over the years by a succession of 'give-away' Governments (since, indeed, the ousting of Thatcher, who could hardly be excused of that). Could this sense of discipline be gradually restored by the institution of a new form of NS, including the square-bashing, but concentrating on giving people job-skills (as the old NS did to some extent)? It might give the army something sensible to do.

Some ideas, please!

The 17-25 year old age range of young men is a problem everywhere. They are prone to violence and risky behavior. Whether it is drinking, fast driving or drugs, young men are a force to be reckoned with.

There can be all the talk in the world about the Arab Spring and the desire for freedom and democracy blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day it was fueled by young men with little or nothing to do that is constructive. Put a few older men in a leadership position and you have a real situation.

National Service takes them 'out of circulation' for a time, which isn't such a bad thing until they grow up and get ready to take their rightful and productive place in society. Unfortunately, armies tend to fight wars and if you have a big enough army, then you increase your chances of going to war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops

National Service takes them 'out of circulation' for a time, which isn't such a bad thing until they grow up and get ready to take their rightful and productive place in society. Unfortunately, armies tend to fight wars and if you have a big enough army, then you increase your chances of going to war.

I was thinking more of a service geared towards community service, though with army-style drill etc. It might train people to be useful members of society rather than 'take them out of circulation'. A positive aim, not a negative one.

In the Middle Ages... or in unsettled parts of the world.... your last sentence might apply; my suggestion was for Britain, where I don't think it would apply. When was the last time Britain, as opposed to the USA supported by Britain, started a war? The Falklands; the Argentinians started that. The Boer War; maybe... my history isn't very good for that period.

It's sad when we have to turn to militarism to bring remedy towards the respective social order.

The contnuing romance with the military.

I would tend to disagree with you about the size of the military. A large military needs hardware and if you have enough planes, bombs, drones, helicopters, RPG's, it's just too easy to rush into a military situation. Not that it will happen, but the decision to do so becomes easier. A knee-jerk, emotional decision rather than a carefully thought out decision.

As far as a community service type activity, it's a good idea, but I don't know how it would work. Most young men, especially those prone to violent behavior, need to be active; building or making things--expending energy.

Labor unions tend to get a little nervous if there is any program that doesn't pay wages and takes work away from them.

As I've said before it's a shame I can't quote some of the articles by Harriet Sergeant which are published in the Times. She's spent years getting to know the gangs in London and some of the things she says are simply astonishing to hear (well they astonish me anyway).

Examples:

The gang she knows don't send Christmas cards although most of them desperately want to send one at least to their Mum. The reason is they can't write. These are 16-19 year olds. If you can't write (or read) when you're 16 today you have no prospect of a job and no future and they know it.

She's spent a lot of time taking them to places they've never been like the British Museum and all the other London attractions that they've never heard off. She offered to take them out for a meal in a proper restaurant but two of the gang really had to be 'persuaded' before they agreed to go. The reason is they'd never used a knife and fork before and were embarrassed to admit it. As I said, astonishing.

One of the gang (Tuggy Tug) had never had regular contact with adult males of any sort until the first time he was sentenced to serve time in an adult prison.

They all carry knives (or guns) because if they venture into the wrong part of town they're dead.

It's probably too late for Tuggy Tug and his mates but what they all need is what the gangs give them. Discipline, security, friendship, affection, a sense of belonging and a sense of purpose.

It really needs to come from families rather than the State and it needs to start when they're young. If we have to rely on some sort of National Service then I reckon we're too late but anything's worth a go.

"It really needs to come from families rather than the State and it needs to start when they're young. If we have to rely on some sort of National Service then I reckon we're too late but anything's worth a go. "

Yes, it really does. But there's the rub; these louts aren't the first lot to go bad. It's intergenerational....What's the bet Mum can't read either, and Dad (if she knows who he is) is in Wormwood Scrubs, as his dad before him and his dad before him.

NZ is attempting to address the issue with court-ordered "boot camps" that concentrate on discipline, mentoring, literacy etc. Military style only as far as being regimented and rigourous, but not actually training to be a soldier.

The country debated the idea and many were opposed to the boot camps because they didn't want these ratbags to get weapons training etc. The camps do not teach the young offenders soldiering skills, but life skills.

But even that is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. You really need to get them when they're 7 years old or younger to break the cycle and instil a different attitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops

Thanks

That is an interesting link sbk

I see when you sort it by "active" the US is 2nd only to China

But if you add the reserves which is what we use a lot of in Afghanistan (legalities aside )

I see the US actually has over 3 million sheesh!

Isn't that 10% of the population?

I wonder if a lot of that is a product of the high un-employment

Well they did say more green jobs

don't know if you can read this. I can because I subscribe to the Times. Have a go

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7069648.ece

Here's her website. If you look at the bottom of the 'Reports' section there's an interview with Tuggy and Beans - also a report she wrote for the CPS. If you look at the 'Articles' section there are the articles she's written for the Times.

http://harrietsergeant.com

http://harrietsergeant.com/articles/prison%E2%80%99s-just-what-a-young-yob-needs-structure-and-discipline/

http://harrietsergeant.com/articles/my-cure-for-violent-gangs-museums-and-a-night-at-the-theatre/

What a waste!

http://harrietsergeant.com/articles/gangs-alas-are-offering-what-boys-need/

I have an issue with the govt spending tax dollars to do the job that parents should have done. One post said there is a love affair with the military, in some ways i agree, the military infastructure does a great deal to stimilate the economy, soldiers eat, drive, wear clothes, boots, etc.... hence the civilian population benefits from the govt purchases and is why i call the cycle a form of working welfare. tax dollars are being redistributed but to working people. Hand out, IMO should come from charities, churches and family. Responsibility, Accountability, Reliability are all taught in the home early and often. The Govt with it's politically correct agenda of trying to make all equal has done more damage than good. There are winners and losers and there are no sure bets, having said this a person who is willing to work for a meal is more likley to end up on top more times than not. If there is a way to require the participants to repay the cost i would support such a plan and while they were at it they could do the same for the parents.

To correct a few misconceptions.....

I did not advocate a larger army; what I said was a similar organisation geared to community service, but with military-style discipline. I think the discipline, including drill, is necessary to make sure everyone plays a full part, and also to help inculcate team spirit. And if the unions don't like young guys learning useful trades, then there is something radically wrong with the unions too. We would not need to buy ever more sophisticated weapons, because that's not what it is about; it's about helping the community, helping the young guys, and rectifying the mistakes made by the "parents", if any (yes, of course they had parents, but you know what I mean!).

All very nice to leave it to the parents; we did, and look what's happened.

Recent governments have gone on entirely the wrong track, in my opinion. What I'm trying to suggest is a way to remedy past mistakes... looking to the future.

I don't for a moment suggest that this is the only answer; it's the best one I can come up with, and I think it would do the trick. If any of you have better suggestions which would work, please say so.

To correct a few misconceptions.....

I did not advocate a larger army; what I said was a similar organisation geared to community service, but with military-style discipline. I think the discipline, including drill, is necessary to make sure everyone plays a full part, and also to help inculcate team spirit. And if the unions don't like young guys learning useful trades, then there is something radically wrong with the unions too. We would not need to buy ever more sophisticated weapons, because that's not what it is about; it's about helping the community, helping the young guys, and rectifying the mistakes made by the "parents", if any (yes, of course they had parents, but you know what I mean!).

All very nice to leave it to the parents; we did, and look what's happened.

Recent governments have gone on entirely the wrong track, in my opinion. What I'm trying to suggest is a way to remedy past mistakes... looking to the future.

I don't for a moment suggest that this is the only answer; it's the best one I can come up with, and I think it would do the trick. If any of you have better suggestions which would work, please say so.

As I posted, NZ is doing sort of what you have suggested, except it's not for all youth, just the ones that get caught.

My take on it though is that by teenage, you're too late. Sure, some can be "saved".....but the majority of today's louts will hardly change unless the discipline instilled in the boot camps is given legal leave to be harsh, and I mean HARSH....and there's too much PC these days to allow that sort of corrective action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops

Thanks

That is an interesting link sbk

I see when you sort it by "active" the US is 2nd only to China

But if you add the reserves which is what we use a lot of in Afghanistan (legalities aside )

I see the US actually has over 3 million sheesh!

Isn't that 10% of the population?

I wonder if a lot of that is a product of the high un-employment

Well they did say more green jobs

No - 1% (one percent). And the US has a population of around 330 million, I believe. So less than 1%.

I don't know the situation in the UK with programs like you are proposing, but the US had a program called "Job Corp." You had to join voluntarily. The local juvenile judge used to let them sit in a juvenile detention center until they decided to 'volunteer'.

These are considered 'social programs' and they tend to be expensive.

The few youngsters I knew who went to Job Corp did well. They learned a number of useful skills and went on to live productive lives. I don't know if the Corp was the reason.

As I posted, NZ is doing sort of what you have suggested, except it's not for all youth, just the ones that get caught.

My take on it though is that by teenage, you're too late. Sure, some can be "saved".....but the majority of today's louts will hardly change unless the discipline instilled in the boot camps is given legal leave to be harsh, and I mean HARSH....and there's too much PC these days to allow that sort of corrective action.

I know NZ is doing something similar for short periods only.

Teenage is indeed too late... but can you offer an alternative idea? And discipline must be firm... or harsh... for it to do any good.

It's very easy to say,"Oh, we can't do anything too severe, it wouldn't be PC". But there is a problem.... we all recognise that.... so we should be looking for a solution.

Bring back the birch and the 11+ as well....let's keep these proles firmly in their place.

Then we can have free university education for kids who are worth it.....just like in the good ol' days!

I have advocated the 'boot camp' principle for decades. Like you I did my national service. Like you it was in the RAF. I had the compulsory initial training in drill and so on, then went to Yatesbury for nine months instruction in radar. Then a year on air-sea rescue helicopters. Well worth the time.

I went early, although I could have postponed it foe college. But as at that time it looked to be a permanent arrangement, I didn't want to get the degree, then be subject to the whims of an eighteen-year-old drill corporal - so I got it over with early.

Nowadays it would be difficult to reintroduce this system, as the discipline is something we accepted as life's norm, whereas today most would rebel. And military discipline relies on the men accepting the discipline, it is not just imposed from above. Thirty-plus recruits being disciplined by one sergeant and two corporals only works if all understand it is the way of life.

No need for guns, I agree. But to learn a trade in the current army takes a considerable amount of skill. The equipment is almost universally computer controlled and rather sophisticated. I used to strip down a Ford van, using a set of tools and an A-frame. Nowadays you cannot touch the engine, or many braking systems, due to the computer control systems. So I'm not sure that the kids would be able to do anything (yes, I know thaey are sophisticated enough to nick the things, but can they repair them?). If the kids fail at such a boot camp, where would they go next?

They certainly should have more discipline in the home and at school. They are, after all, only kids and should be taught respect and how to work within society. But that now means training the parents and retraining the teachers. Neither are currently seeming to want the responsibility of raising/teaching children.

I have advocated the 'boot camp' principle for decades. Like you I did my national service. Like you it was in the RAF. I had the compulsory initial training in drill and so on, then went to Yatesbury for nine months instruction in radar. Then a year on air-sea rescue helicopters. Well worth the time.

I went early, although I could have postponed it foe college. But as at that time it looked to be a permanent arrangement, I didn't want to get the degree, then be subject to the whims of an eighteen-year-old drill corporal - so I got it over with early.

Nowadays it would be difficult to reintroduce this system, as the discipline is something we accepted as life's norm, whereas today most would rebel. And military discipline relies on the men accepting the discipline, it is not just imposed from above. Thirty-plus recruits being disciplined by one sergeant and two corporals only works if all understand it is the way of life.

No need for guns, I agree. But to learn a trade in the current army takes a considerable amount of skill. The equipment is almost universally computer controlled and rather sophisticated. I used to strip down a Ford van, using a set of tools and an A-frame. Nowadays you cannot touch the engine, or many braking systems, due to the computer control systems. So I'm not sure that the kids would be able to do anything (yes, I know thaey are sophisticated enough to nick the things, but can they repair them?). If the kids fail at such a boot camp, where would they go next?

They certainly should have more discipline in the home and at school. They are, after all, only kids and should be taught respect and how to work within society. But that now means training the parents and retraining the teachers. Neither are currently seeming to want the responsibility of raising/teaching children.

I too chose to do my NS before going to university, though if I'd postponed it, I would have missed it altogether. In fact NS was responsible for introducing me to the Far East... and this year I celebrate 50 years as an expat.

I agree with you in virtually every detail, HB. Training the parents and retraining the teachers; the second is possible, the first is not.

I know the original suggestion sounds a bit Colonel Blimpish, but give me an alternative.

Colonel Blimp may be a bit unfair.

Call me generous, but I do think that there is alot of wisdom in the British old school.

Colonel Blimp may be a bit unfair.

Call me generous, but I do think that there is alot of wisdom in the British old school.

I fell into the trap of trying to be too PC!

I wouldn't call you generous, I'd call you realistic. Whether the old ways are any use in 2011 is partly what inspired this thread.

Another problem that we have now that we didn't have 50 years ago is a lack of manufacturing industry to provide apprenticeships and employment for those who are not academically inclined.

Another problem that we have now that we didn't have 50 years ago is a lack of manufacturing industry to provide apprenticeships and employment for those who are not academically inclined.

You may have put your finger on a major factor.

Combine that with the evolving PC attitude that prohibits a good spanking and you have a generation of young urbanites that are not only aimless but have no sense of consequences.

But it's not just the less acedemically inclined.

It's an evolving culture and class.

Another problem that we have now that we didn't have 50 years ago is a lack of manufacturing industry to provide apprenticeships and employment for those who are not academically inclined.

You may have put your finger on a major factor.

Combine that with the evolving PC attitude that prohibits a good spanking and you have a generation of young urbanites that are not only aimless but have no sense of consequences.

But it's not just the less acedemically inclined.

It's an evolving culture and class.

A good spanking?

What sort of a thread is this???

An excerpt from a recent newspaper article:

'Last Tuesday, at the height of the riots, I got a telephone call from Mash, an 18-year-old member of a Brixton gang whom I had befriended three years ago. Three of the gang are now in prison. But Mash, Lips and Bulldog, the only white member of the gang, were out on the streets last week.

Mash was watching the mob storm an electrical shop in Clapham, south London. I could hear screams and the crash of broken glass. I assumed that he had followed the others inside. Instead he was staring around in wonder. “It’s the funniest thing, Harri, man,” he confided, “There’s all these people I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. The only people we worry about is the Feds. Today I can go anywhere I like in London.”

It took me a moment to understand. Gang rivalry usually confines Mash to a few streets around his estate. What the riots represented for him was a sudden explosion of freedom. He was mixing with strangers without the fear of being stabbed or shot. Something we take for granted had left him stunned."'

I suppose what I'm getting at is having been a bit of a tearaway in my youth and having experienced corporal punishment...from the age of 8 or 9 until it was banned when I started High school I never had any respect for the people who administered this. To me it was just something to be endured and despised.

The folks who helped turn around my life would never have considered this as an option...for positive guidance and time and patience is worth so much more. It seems this is sadly lacking in the lives of many young people today.

I also take the point regarding apprenticeships which gave youngsters with more manual skills purpose and focus and a sense of identity being lost...I don't know how you can easily replace that in the current climate.