UPDATE 1 -- U.S. soldier goes on shooting spree, kills 16 Afghan civilians

[Exsexyman]

What if it was indeed the work of 15-20 soldiers?

There's no way the military will admit to that, so far it's been confined to the findings of Afghanis and news outlets like "Russia Today" so it's as good as it has never happened, but if these findings break out in the open and US media has no choice but to report them, what will happen then? Perhaps Al Jazeera and a couple of UK newspapers will start the crack in the information war, perhaps not, but if Karzai himself goes public it will be impossible to hide.

Even that highly critical blog linked on the previous page assumes it was one guy who went into two houses then collected the bodies and tried to burn them. Two houses two kilometers apart. That just doesn't compute.

Here is US veterans today's take on it. Very disturbing reading.

http://www.veteranst...coverup-begins/

Just another politically motivated hit piece...

Lifted from the link.

_____________________________________________________

HOLY WARRIORS OR HELLISH GHOULS?

Next we can ask, what kind of person does this? That I can clearly answer, this is the act of someone with strong religious and political beliefs. Years ago, initially Pentecostal and then broader Dominionist/Dispensationalist theologies under the broader term of “Christian Evangelism” has been behind the atrocities.

Some are tied to doomsday cults, others toward “racial cleansing” and more fall under the influence of politicians.

Those currently are Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

Previously, they were the entire Bush administration, which used communist “brainwashing” techniques on troops to encourage them to torture and kill as part of their patriotic and religious duty.

These messages were instilled during training and continually reinforced through televised psyop sessions on the Armed Forces Network and Pentagon Channel.

Such rhetoric has largely disappeared during the Obama administration with the exception of that which is normally part of the daily broadcasts on Fox News with its extremist pundits.

A predictable response i suppose. But given the logistics of the killings, do you honestly believe the official version of events? The alleged perpetrator/ Patsy, was certainly flown out very quickly. The Afghan government are complaining that American authorities are blocking their investigations every step of the way. Many eye witness reports of more than one soldier involved. Will they be flown to the US to give evidence at the trial of this guy? I doubt it somehow. Whether you like it or not, this article asks some very disturbing questions that should be answered. But i won't be holding my breath. Also, regarding your comment dismissing it as somehow politically motivated, Veterans Today is hardly Russia Today, or some whacko conspiracy website. For anyone with no axe to grind they should at least be listened to.

[chuckd]

What if it was indeed the work of 15-20 soldiers?

There's no way the military will admit to that, so far it's been confined to the findings of Afghanis and news outlets like "Russia Today" so it's as good as it has never happened, but if these findings break out in the open and US media has no choice but to report them, what will happen then? Perhaps Al Jazeera and a couple of UK newspapers will start the crack in the information war, perhaps not, but if Karzai himself goes public it will be impossible to hide.

Even that highly critical blog linked on the previous page assumes it was one guy who went into two houses then collected the bodies and tried to burn them. Two houses two kilometers apart. That just doesn't compute.

Here is US veterans today's take on it. Very disturbing reading.

http://www.veteranst...coverup-begins/

Just another politically motivated hit piece...

Lifted from the link.

_____________________________________________________

HOLY WARRIORS OR HELLISH GHOULS?

Next we can ask, what kind of person does this? That I can clearly answer, this is the act of someone with strong religious and political beliefs. Years ago, initially Pentecostal and then broader Dominionist/Dispensationalist theologies under the broader term of “Christian Evangelism” has been behind the atrocities.

Some are tied to doomsday cults, others toward “racial cleansing” and more fall under the influence of politicians.

Those currently are Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

Previously, they were the entire Bush administration, which used communist “brainwashing” techniques on troops to encourage them to torture and kill as part of their patriotic and religious duty.

These messages were instilled during training and continually reinforced through televised psyop sessions on the Armed Forces Network and Pentagon Channel.

Such rhetoric has largely disappeared during the Obama administration with the exception of that which is normally part of the daily broadcasts on Fox News with its extremist pundits.

A predictable response i suppose. But given the logistics of the killings, do you honestly believe the official version of events? The alleged perpetrator/ Patsy, was certainly flown out very quickly. The Afghan government are complaining that American authorities are blocking their investigations every step of the way. Many eye witness reports of more than one soldier involved. Will they be flown to the US to give evidence at the trial of this guy? I doubt it somehow. Whether you like it or not, this article asks some very disturbing questions that should be answered. But i won't be holding my breath. Also, regarding your comment dismissing it as somehow politically motivated, Veterans Today is hardly Russia Today, or some whacko conspiracy website. For anyone with no axe to grind they should at least be listened to.

Please read again the part of the article I posted.

Then tell me this guy has no agenda or "axe to grind".

As far as I know there have been no published official version of events. When they come out the discussion about them can take place.

[Exsexyman]

Chuckd. Are you honestly expecting a true, accurate and unbiased account of these murderous events to be published? I have to say i admire your faith.

[volk666]

What's the official version? How much more official you want when you already have Afghan MPs investigating the case and Karzai quoting witnesses?

Another official version is the insistence of the military and Obama himself that there was only one man involved.

As I said before - there are two parallel universes developing there, the likes of Russia and Veterans Today want to spin it their own way, that's for sure, but mainstream western media aren't any better. I doubt anyone cares that much for murdered children but both want to look good and proper and civilized.

Come to think of it, those trying to cover up a proper massacre by a dozen or so US soldiers are probably worse "friends" in the long run, but if that version makes one feel safe and full of trust - go ahead, everyone needs to lie to himself now and then, it's human nature.

Jumping in with RT and other assorted anti-Americans is a knee jerk response in the search for the same safety and belief that the world is just and fair, but it's a jump from the frying pan and into a fire.

[Exsexyman]

What's the official version? How much more official you want when you already have Afghan MPs investigating the case and Karzai quoting witnesses?

Another official version is the insistence of the military and Obama himself that there was only one man involved.

As I said before - there are two parallel universes developing there, the likes of Russia and Veterans Today want to spin it their own way, that's for sure, but mainstream western media aren't any better. I doubt anyone cares that much for murdered children but both want to look good and proper and civilized.

Come to think of it, those trying to cover up a proper massacre by a dozen or so US soldiers are probably worse "friends" in the long run, but if that version makes one feel safe and full of trust - go ahead, everyone needs to lie to himself now and then, it's human nature.

Jumping in with RT and other assorted anti-Americans is a knee jerk response in the search for the same safety and belief that the world is just and fair, but it's a jump from the frying pan and into a fire.

So Veterans Today is an Anti American organization? Really? I suggest you look on their website and read 'About Us'. They are an independent, unaligned voice, accepting no financial support from any organization or individual'. ' Spanning the political spectrum we support the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic' Just because they don't take a gung ho warmongering stance does not make them Anti American.

[Ulysses G.]

There are loony veterans too - actually quite a few of them.

[Exsexyman]

There are loony veterans too - actually quite a few of them.

A comment that certainly becomes you.

[Ulysses G.]

i grew up on a military base and served myself. Soldiers come in all different types.

[maidu]

I think the same good then be said about you Maidu, with your speculations of capital punishment before someone has even gone on trial. As you now see, if you guys would have hung the soldier from the nearest tree when given the chance, a week later there is news coming out that portrays a whole different story.

Yes, I did recommend capital punishment, yet clearly accompanied that with 'if found guilty.' I would say the same, whether it was one killer or a group. I never said anything about 'hanging anyone from the nearest tree.'

Note: the 16 killed Afghanis didn't have any trial. They were shot. Do we agree on that?

This episode is a 'game changer' for me. Call me naive if you want, but I had thoughts that US soldiers were well trained, professional and at least somewhat mentally strong. Granted, there are going to be fringe kooks in any group. It's at least partly the responsibility of the group itself to try and rope in the loose nuts. There are warning signs when someone is going to crack 'big time.' There are even guards at the gates of the bases, are there not? A guy walking out solo (or with a group), all toting loaded weapons and extra ammo, and are clearly not on scheduled patrol - does that gain any notice?.

The prison abuses, the pissing on bodies, and other prior incidents (by US servicemen) were all very bad, but this incident particularly burns my biscuit. To go to civilians' houses and indiscriminately shoot to kill, is macabre. I await reports by reliable authorities.

The fact that the gunman is gaining hyper recognition can only play in to his favor - particularly among women who may be following this. He may even be generating a fan club. It's human nature, that the more familiar people are with someone, the more they relate to, and probably the more they like that person. Jeffry Dammer, one of the most heineous mass killers in US history, has marriage proposals mailed to his prison address. Many people in the US are forming campaigns to try to generate as much pity and excuses as possible for the accused. On the other side of the coin, the killed Afghanis didn't get any bleeding heart publicity - they just got bullets piercing their bodies.

[Steely Dan]

The prison abuses, the pissing on bodies, and other prior incidents (by US servicemen) were all very bad, but this incident particularly burns my biscuit. To go to civilians' houses and indiscriminately shoot to kill, is macabre. I await reports by reliable authorities.

I can understand your anger, but if you read the article I posted it would appear the Afghans were actually more upset by the accidental burning of Korans than these horrific murders. Think about that for a minute. The implications are that not only the Taliban, but also Afghans unaffiliated to them value holy books more than human life. I then remind myself the operation to 'liberate' Afghanistan is named 'Enduring freedom', well it would appear that what passes for freedom there is so alien to our values that we should not be there, unless of course the op name is changed to Enduring Islam.

I do realize there are some people in Afghanistan who want something different to the radicals, but they are being sold out by our negotiating with the Taliban, just as our troops are by restrictive rules of engagement due to hyper-sensitivity to our enemy's feelings.

[chuckd]

What's the official version? How much more official you want when you already have Afghan MPs investigating the case and Karzai quoting witnesses?

Another official version is the insistence of the military and Obama himself that there was only one man involved.

As I said before - there are two parallel universes developing there, the likes of Russia and Veterans Today want to spin it their own way, that's for sure, but mainstream western media aren't any better. I doubt anyone cares that much for murdered children but both want to look good and proper and civilized.

Come to think of it, those trying to cover up a proper massacre by a dozen or so US soldiers are probably worse "friends" in the long run, but if that version makes one feel safe and full of trust - go ahead, everyone needs to lie to himself now and then, it's human nature.

Jumping in with RT and other assorted anti-Americans is a knee jerk response in the search for the same safety and belief that the world is just and fair, but it's a jump from the frying pan and into a fire.

So Veterans Today is an Anti American organization? Really? I suggest you look on their website and read 'About Us'. They are an independent, unaligned voice, accepting no financial support from any organization or individual'. ' Spanning the political spectrum we support the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic' Just because they don't take a gung ho warmongering stance does not make them Anti American.

In the Portion I quoted, the author bashed Christianity, Santorum, Gingrich, the entire Bush Administration and, of course Fox News.

The only kind words were for the Obama Administration.

Now, tell me the author didn't have an agenda when he wrote the article.

As far as a knee jerk reaction, I see more of that coming from those that believe the version being spouted by the Karzai administration and the Afghan and Russian press than anywhere else.

I'm saying NONE of us really know what went down and throwing around all the tin foil hat theories does nobody any good.

This is a serious problem and deserves better than merely using it as another excuse to bash the US.

[GentlemanJim]

Maidu

Cool, I understand you now, gloves off

chuckd

Perhaps we don't know what really happened, but just like the Apache helicopters, maybe we need an Assange to find out and publish. Would revealing a cover up and a crime be a crime? I think we need to know.

[maidu]

BBC, this morning, is sticking with the 'lone gunman' view. They didn't mention anything about any others.

Also, there's increasing focus on the suspect's battle wound concussion. No surprise that US sources will do all they can to try and get the guy off relatively easy by emphasizing 'diminished mental capacity' or whatever they're going to call it.

Guys, do me a favor. If I ever go to my neigbors with an automatic rifle and kill a dozen of more of them, don't let any defense attorney get me a lighter sentence by claiming 'insanity' or 'diminished mental ...whatever'. Even an autistic 3 year old knows it's not right to kill innocent people. The suspect is a 38 yr old military professional. There is no excuse for going out and killing civilians like a turkey shoot (and then burning their bodies - some of whom may have been still alive while being burnt!!!).

NO EXCUSES. If he is found guilty, he should suffer the full weight of repercussions. Same for any accomplices, including any of his fellows who might have heard him rant beforehand, and any guards at the gate who allowed a drunk and very angry soldier to leave the base with lethal weaponry.

How is the 'on the ground' investigation going?

[GentlemanJim]

BBC, this morning, is sticking with the 'lone gunman' view. They didn't mention anything about any others.

Also, there's increasing focus on the suspect's battle wound concussion. No surprise that US sources will do all they can to try and get the guy off relatively easy by emphasizing 'diminished mental capacity' or whatever they're going to call it.

Guys, do me a favor. If I ever go to my neigbors with an automatic rifle and kill a dozen of more of them, don't let any defense attorney get me a lighter sentence by claiming 'insanity' or 'diminished mental ...whatever'. Even an autistic 3 year old knows it's not right to kill innocent people. The suspect is a 38 yr old military professional. There is no excuse for going out and killing civilians like a turkey shoot (and then burning their bodies - some of whom may have been still alive while being burnt!!!).

NO EXCUSES. If he is found guilty, he should suffer the full weight of repercussions. Same for any accomplices, including any of his fellows who might have heard him rant beforehand, and any guards at the gate who allowed a drunk and very angry soldier to leave the base with lethal weaponry.

How is the 'on the ground' investigation going?

You see, just when I thought you have calmed down you go on another rant.

As regards the US trying to get the guy off early, you are mistaken. The US politicians who now control this do not give a flying <deleted> about this soldier. They will do whatever they deem appropriate to get the best result for any situation that is currently politically desirable. If that means wooing a majority of angry Americans who dont want the guy punished, then he will be found not responsible due to psychological problems caused by battle injuries. If the US want to stroke the Afghans then a 50 year solitary confinement or a death sentence awaits the scapegoat.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I do not condone this in any way,but those responsible include officers and civilians far further up the food chain.

Your analogy of going to your neighbours with an automatic weapon is a poor one. This guy is in a war zone where he is paid to go and kill people. Not via the luxury of using long range artillery where they don't even see each other, but in close quarter combat with bayonets fixed kill or be killed. What happens when the reality of the situation starts to become blurred, when you see so much killing you become desensitized to it in a bid to protect what little humanity you have left....you close off. By the way if you do go out with an automatic weapon and kill people in houses 2 km apart at the same time all on your own, then I will sit up and listen!

Where does the buck stop? who is responsible. Under your demand for his head there are a lot of guilty soldiers out there. Lets face it, if we can jail an 80 year old man for being forced to be a concentration camp guard, then we can jail 80 year old Vietnam US veterans for the My Lai massacre. Justice has no expiry date does it ?

[maidu]

This atrocity stirs up emotions for those trying to stay abreast of it. It brings out issues of 'what is a US soldier and how well trained is he? How mentally strong is he, and if he is seen to be cracking, do his associates have any part to play in that? Do his buddies just let things happen or, if they see a fellow about to become a mass murderer, do they take dynamic action to try and stem it? Do the soldiers even know right from wrong, after prolonged stints in combat zone?

These are some of the questions which upper brass need to take a long hard look at. Instead of only protecting their own, they have to give a care about the well-being of the citizens in the region they're engaged in.

[Jingthing]

I'm pretty sure Bush's Iraq war was a mistake. Afghanistan? I get the purpose more. However, maybe it's worth noting that only a small percentage of Americans get involved in our wars these days. Volunteer army, yada, yada, yada. Maybe there IS an argument for national service for all Americans. Fewer cases of absurdly long and repeated tours in war zones. This kind of incident kind of feels like karma in a way for a country that has lost a good portion of its moral compass. If its important enough for a country to be at war, the entire population should FEEL the pain of that war. In modern decadent America, not even close.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

I'm pretty sure Bush's Iraq war was a mistake. Afghanistan? I get the purpose more. However, maybe it's worth noting that only a small percentage of Americans get involved in our wars these days. Volunteer army, yada, yada, yada. Maybe there IS an argument for national service for all Americans. Fewer cases of absurdly long and repeated tours in war zones. This kind of incident kind of feels like karma in a way for a country that has lost a good portion of its moral compass. If its important enough for a country to be at war, the entire population should FEEL the pain of that war. In modern decadent America, not even close.

I think the mistake with Afghanistan was thinking we could bring about a regime more like ourselves than the Taliban. Clearly this thought was delusional.

http://townhall.com/columnists/dianawest/2012/03/16/well_hear_an_afghan_thanks_when_hell_freezes_over/page/full/

[maidu]

Hypothetical scenario:

Imagine a very angry and drunk soldier (soldier#1), who had been in combat zones too long, grabbed his rifle, and shouted at everyone within earshot, "I'm pissed and I'm going to go out and shoot some *-#-!-* Arab civilians". And then what if another soldier#2 called at the first soldier to stop, he didn't stop, and soldier#2 soldier shot and killed soldier#1.

Would soldier#2 be severely disciplined, or would he be commended for averting a possible mass murder? Maidu's assumption: he would be disciplined by authorities, but certainly, slain soldier#1's buddies would be intensely angry and carry out severe retribution against soldier#2.

Comparing the above scenario to the recent killings in this OP: Another hypotheltical:

If fellow soldiers had known that Afghans civilians were going to get killed, would any of them killed the would-be murderer beforehand?

[flying]

I'm pretty sure Bush's Iraq war was a mistake. Afghanistan? I get the purpose more. However, maybe it's worth noting that only a small percentage of Americans get involved in our wars these days. Volunteer army, yada, yada, yada. Maybe there IS an argument for national service for all Americans. Fewer cases of absurdly long and repeated tours in war zones. This kind of incident kind of feels like karma in a way for a country that has lost a good portion of its moral compass. If its important enough for a country to be at war, the entire population should FEEL the pain of that war. In modern decadent America, not even close.

Iraq a mistake? Pretty sure? WMD's none?

Afghanistan you get the purpose? Please share it with us

The entire population should feel it? How many years did you dodge bullets?

I mean you say you get Afghanistan...If so jump right in brother

Your never too old to slap a red cross on your sleeve & help carry bodies.

That aside I assure you all of America & their great great grandchildren will feel the effects of this.

Your post comes off pompous to the extreme

Edited March 18, 2012 by flying

[Jingthing]

I'll put it another way. I am for compulsory military service of some kind. So that the military is not mostly blindly patriotic white people from small backwater towns, poor blacks, and poor Latinos. That way, the entire population would be forced to hold the government more accountable and only go into wars that are fully justified. This is not an anti-war position at all. I think its ironic that Bush tried to export democracy when it is clear U.S. democracy is very dysfunctional. Like Vietnam, there was a draft, and that ultimately forced the U.S. out of there. Not going to entertain your personal attacks, so predictable.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[luckyluke]

In the Detroit News now :

Afghans blast U.S. claim one man behind killings

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120317/NATION/203170337/Afghans-blast-U-S-claim-one-man-behind-killings?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cp

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[chooka]

There seems to be more uproar about this one incident than there ever was about all the afgan soldiers who went on rampages killing nato and Australian troops. Sure the guy did wrong and will pay for his actions so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

[flying]

so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

Or ........call it a day....errr decade really.....& go home to American beef up DEFENSE

Stop spinning down a financial cesspool....stop wasting America's sons & daughters lives & hey who knows maybe

even get back to producing a product or two like back when America was great & a leader in a few manufacturing sectors.

[myfriendu]

There seems to be more uproar about this one incident than there ever was about all the afgan soldiers who went on rampages killing nato and Australian troops. Sure the guy did wrong and will pay for his actions so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

i think maybe you should go back alittle,when russia went to war with afganistan,the usa,armed and fought with and trained the tailban.

remember a guy called bin ladan.

what should have happend is the guy who murdered all these women and kids while they were asleep in there homes and then set them on fire should have been handed over to the afgan state,end of story.

he acted out of the law was not on duty so this cruel person should be stoned to death hanged or what ever they do over there.

not flown back to the usa.

it would not happen if it was a afgan in the states,who did the same.

i rest my case.

[myfriendu]

What if it was indeed the work of 15-20 soldiers?

There's no way the military will admit to that, so far it's been confined to the findings of Afghanis and news outlets like "Russia Today" so it's as good as it has never happened, but if these findings break out in the open and US media has no choice but to report them, what will happen then? Perhaps Al Jazeera and a couple of UK newspapers will start the crack in the information war, perhaps not, but if Karzai himself goes public it will be impossible to hide.

Even that highly critical blog linked on the previous page assumes it was one guy who went into two houses then collected the bodies and tried to burn them. Two houses two kilometers apart. That just doesn't compute.

good post man,no excuse,maybe he trained with david copperfield,and transported himself two clicks away,ive seen it done with a jet on fox news so it must be true

[maidu]

Ban booze at combat bases.

[chuckd]

What if it was indeed the work of 15-20 soldiers?

There's no way the military will admit to that, so far it's been confined to the findings of Afghanis and news outlets like "Russia Today" so it's as good as it has never happened, but if these findings break out in the open and US media has no choice but to report them, what will happen then? Perhaps Al Jazeera and a couple of UK newspapers will start the crack in the information war, perhaps not, but if Karzai himself goes public it will be impossible to hide.

Even that highly critical blog linked on the previous page assumes it was one guy who went into two houses then collected the bodies and tried to burn them. Two houses two kilometers apart. That just doesn't compute.

good post man,no excuse,maybe he trained with david copperfield,and transported himself two clicks away,ive seen it done with a jet on fox news so it must be true

Yeah, I agree with both of you. I don't think it is physically possible for a combat trained, well fit soldier to walk 2 kilometers either. At least not in one night.

I wager there was a donkey involved in here somewhere.

[chuckd]

There seems to be more uproar about this one incident than there ever was about all the afgan soldiers who went on rampages killing nato and Australian troops. Sure the guy did wrong and will pay for his actions so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

i think maybe you should go back alittle,when russia went to war with afganistan,the usa,armed and fought with and trained the tailban.

remember a guy called bin ladan.

what should have happend is the guy who murdered all these women and kids while they were asleep in there homes and then set them on fire should have been handed over to the afgan state,end of story.

he acted out of the law was not on duty so this cruel person should be stoned to death hanged or what ever they do over there.

not flown back to the usa.

it would not happen if it was a afgan in the states,who did the same.

i rest my case.

...and for your edification:

There was no such thing as a Taliban until the Afghanistan’s civil war in the wake of Soviet troops’ withdrawal in 1989, after a decade-long occupation. But by the time their last troops withdrew in February 1989, they’d left a nation in social and economic shards, 1.5 million dead, millions of refugees and orphans in Iran and Pakistan, and gaping political vacuum that warlords attempted to fill. Afghan mujahideen warlords replaced their war with the Soviets with a civil war.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/afghanistan/ss/me080914a_2.htm

[koheesti]

There seems to be more uproar about this one incident than there ever was about all the afgan soldiers who went on rampages killing nato and Australian troops. Sure the guy did wrong and will pay for his actions so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

so lets get back to the task at hand and that is destroying the Taliban.

Or ........call it a day....errr decade really.....& go home to American beef up DEFENSE

Stop spinning down a financial cesspool....stop wasting America's sons & daughters lives & hey who knows maybe

even get back to producing a product or two like back when America was great & a leader in a few manufacturing sectors.

I'm for both pulling out the troops and destroying the Taliban. Setting a public deadline for total troop withdrawal is a mistake (a truly brilliant President would know this). That's just giving the Taliban enough advance notice so they can begin planning their victory parade (without music of course), Nothing wrong with a deadline for a partial withdrawal though. Tell them on this day we being pulling out the vast majority of our troops and closing bases. You Taliban & terrorist a-holes will still be getting killed regularly, only by drones, bombing and special forces and not by foot patrols. So scrap the lofty goal of turning Afghanistan into a modern, functioning member of the international community. In its place, something simpler - Kill Taliban. If you happen to be an unfortunate soul too close when the time comes, sorry, you have been forewarned. If the Afghans want to grow poppies, let 'em. If they want to keep their women as 3rd class citizens, let 'em. We tried for a decade. Gave it a good shot spending billions and thousands of lives. Time to toss that bird out of the nest and see what happens.