Any Mathematicians In Pattaya?

[Starbooks]

I am working on a series of educational posters about science (as a hobby, but perhaps I'll put some in the shop to sell)

I would like to send some around Universities in Thailand.

The first is about solar system scales (Attached 75% finished) and I want to get across how weak the gravitation pull on Neptune from the sun must be at 4.5billion km. I am having trouble putting it in laymans terms ie. 1 Newton or so many hrsepower etc.

anyone in Pattaya willing to help?

Suns mass is 2×10³⁰ kg

Neptunes mass is 1.0243×10²⁶ kg

Distance is 4.500 million km

now i know that gravity is proportional to the mass of the objects and inverse to the square of the distance

here is the equation: F= G*((m1*m2)/r^2)

thanks in advance......

[Starbooks]

Just trying to catch someone who may be sober for an hour....

[David48]

What you are missing is the value for 'G' ... or the Gravitional Constant.

G = 6.673 84(80) x 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2

Now the equation is simple because now you only have one unknown ... 'F'

I get 6.5877 x 10²⁶ Newtons of Force

But heck ... I could have entered an odd zero or two incorrectly.

What's the prize? Lot's of I hope

EDIT

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Why aren’t we asking the important questions here ...

... opps, I just read that you are a Sponsor ... sorry!

Edited April 3, 2012 by David48

[Swiss1960]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Why aren’t we asking the important questions here ...

... opps, I just read that you are a Sponsor ... sorry!

Sorry... have to... can't restrain myself...

You have to add another variable to your equation... age influence on gravitiy that will divert the horizontal pull to a vertical one...

[jombom]

I get 6.75 x 10^27 Newtons.

Why schoolkids would need to know this, is beyond me.

[Starbooks]

I get 6.75 x 10^27 Newtons.

Why schoolkids would need to know this, is beyond me.

Thanks, of course school kids won't relate to it, I presumed that the force would be a lot smaller and It might be a point of interest considering the distance. It will be for universities anyway

Edited April 3, 2012 by Starbooks

[Starbooks]

What you are missing is the value for 'G' ... or the Gravitional Constant.

G = 6.673 84(80) x 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2

Now the equation is simple because now you only have one unknown ... 'F'

I get 6.5877 x 10²⁶ Newtons of Force

But heck ... I could have entered an odd zero or two incorrectly.

What's the prize? Lot's of I hope

EDIT

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Why aren’t we asking the important questions here ...

... opps, I just read that you are a Sponsor ... sorry!

no problem...

[morrobay]

What you are missing is the value for 'G' ... or the Gravitional Constant.

G = 6.673 84(80) x 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2

Now the equation is simple because now you only have one unknown ... 'F'

I get 6.5877 x 10²⁶ Newtons of Force

Thats what I get.

To the OP, Force is in Newtons. Power, Newtons/second is in Watts

And for a point of interest for the kids : Gravitational Force moves at the speed of light.

Edited April 3, 2012 by morrobay

[eyebee]

There is a great mnemonic helping one to remember the relative sizes of the planets in the solar system. The Mnemonic is MMVENUSJ: Mercury, Mars, Venus, Earth, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn, Jupiter. You only have to remember that the first M is Mercury and the rest fall into place

[Spalpeen]

Nice looking poster. The distance to Neptune is roughly 4.5 billion km, (as you mention) not million as you later say. To get away from all those billions of kilometres, distances in the solar system are often stated in terms of astronomical units (AU), where the distance from the sun to the earth is 1 AU. In those terms, Neptune is 30 times as far from the sun as earth, so 30 AU out. Since gravity falls off in proportion to the inverse square of the distance, the pull which the sun exerts on Neptune will be 1 divided by 30 squared times less than the pull exerted on the earth. So 900 times weaker. The mass of the sun affects the amount of pull it exerts on Neptune, but the mass of Neptune does not.

Someone mentioned that gravity travels at the speed of light. In fact gravity (as opposed to gravitational waves, which are a different thing) appears to propagate at a speed that is effectively infinite.

[Payboy]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Easy to find out the answers to your questions if you apply the theorem - the mass of the arse is equal to the angle of the dangle.

[petercool]

I must say that I am impressed with the erudition of some members of the forum which is a nice counterpoint to some of the posts one sees here ....

[morrobay]

What you are missing is the value for 'G' ... or the Gravitional Constant.

G = 6.673 84(80) x 10^-11 m³ kg^-1 s^-2

Now the equation is simple because now you only have one unknown ... 'F'

I get 6.5877 x 10²⁶ Newtons of Force

Thats what I get.

To the OP, Force is in Newtons. Power, Newtons/second is in Watts

And for a point of interest for the kids : Gravitational Force moves at the speed of light.

Correction : Power is in Joules/sec = Watts

Work = Force (constant ) x distance = Joules

[morrobay]

Someone mentioned that gravity travels at the speed of light. In fact gravity (as opposed to gravitational waves, which are a different thing) appears to propagate at a speed that is effectively infinite.

Wrong - No Way Norway: Gravity travels at the speed of light.

See wikipedia, speed of gravity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity

Edited April 3, 2012 by morrobay

[Starbooks]

Nice looking poster. The distance to Neptune is roughly 4.5 billion km, (as you mention) not million as you later say. To get away from all those billions of kilometres, distances in the solar system are often stated in terms of astronomical units (AU), where the distance from the sun to the earth is 1 AU. In those terms, Neptune is 30 times as far from the sun as earth, so 30 AU out. Since gravity falls off in proportion to the inverse square of the distance, the pull which the sun exerts on Neptune will be 1 divided by 30 squared times less than the pull exerted on the earth. So 900 times weaker. The mass of the sun affects the amount of pull it exerts on Neptune, but the mass of Neptune does not.

Someone mentioned that gravity travels at the speed of light. In fact gravity (as opposed to gravitational waves, which are a different thing) appears to propagate at a speed that is effectively infinite.

Glad you like the poster

yes 4.5 billion km or 4,500 million as I stated... I am aware of Astronomic Units AU but million and billions are more striking!

surely Neptune has a gravitational pull of it's own (on the sun and everything else) that would have to be considered...

Another interesting point is that the suns gravity extends over 2 light years away before it's overpowered by other stars..

as for ladies Orbs.. they would have equal gravitation pull towards each other

Oh and the voyager space probes are well over 16 billion km away and still going....

Edited April 3, 2012 by Starbooks

[morrobay]

Regarding the Force of Gravity between two masses m₁ and m₂ For example the sun and a planet. m₁ = sun m₂ = planet

Force gravity = G ( mass sun ) ( mass planet ) / (distance)² The force is equal , but not the accelaration one has on the other.

Force = mass x accelaration , so, accelaration = G m₁ m₂ / d² ( mass )

To get the accelaration the sun has on the planet, plug in the planets mass.

To get the accelaration the planet has on the sun, plug in the suns mass.

Edited April 3, 2012 by morrobay

[Spalpeen]

Someone mentioned that gravity travels at the speed of light. In fact gravity (as opposed to gravitational waves, which are a different thing) appears to propagate at a speed that is effectively infinite.

Wrong - No Way Norway: Gravity travels at the speed of light.

See wikipedia, speed of gravity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity

Wrong. What Wiki describes as travelling at the speed of light is gravitational waves. These are a phenomenon predicted by relativity which have yet to be detected and may not exist at all. Wiki describes gravity in terms of a static field phenomenon where masses within the field have an instantaneous effect on each other without anything actually travelling between them.

The orbital mechanics of the solar system only works if gravity is instantaneous. If it wanders around at a leisurely C then you get an effect called coupling between planets and everything would end in a huge mess.

[transam]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Easy to find out the answers to your questions if you apply the theorem - the mass of the arse is equal to the angle of the dangle.

Beat me too it, great minds think alike eh.

[Payboy]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Easy to find out the answers to your questions if you apply the theorem - the mass of the arse is equal to the angle of the dangle.

Beat me too it, great minds think alike eh.

And don't forget Newton's 4th law of motion - to and fro motion creates a sticky lotion.

[transam]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Easy to find out the answers to your questions if you apply the theorem - the mass of the arse is equal to the angle of the dangle.

Beat me too it, great minds think alike eh.

And don't forget Newton's 4th law of motion - to and fro motion creates a sticky lotion.

, didn't know that.

[Satcommlee]

This is why I love Thaivisa.. such a varied range of posts.. However it was somewhat inevitable that it would get dragged down to gutter level :-)

[Naam]

And for a point of interest for the kids : Gravitational Force moves at the speed of light.

that gravitational force is not static/existing but "moves" is an assumption. even Kopeikin could only present circumstantial but no hard evidence about a decade ago to prove "ol' Albert" was right.

[morrobay]

Someone mentioned that gravity travels at the speed of light. In fact gravity (as opposed to gravitational waves, which are a different thing) appears to propagate at a speed that is effectively infinite.

Wrong - No Way Norway: Gravity travels at the speed of light.

See wikipedia, speed of gravity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity

Wrong. What Wiki describes as travelling at the speed of light is gravitational waves. These are a phenomenon predicted by relativity which have yet to be detected and may not exist at all. Wiki describes gravity in terms of a static field phenomenon where masses within the field have an instantaneous effect on each other without anything actually travelling between them.

The orbital mechanics of the solar system only works if gravity is instantaneous. If it wanders around at a leisurely C then you get an effect called coupling between planets and everything would end in a huge mess.

?? Did you read the last paragraph above the index on first page. Anyway lets move away from Wikipedia physics;

Changes in gravity propagate at the speed of light. The easiest way to see this is by linearizing Einsteins equations of general relativity, so that the metric

is a flat metric plus a small perturbation . Then its easy to show that the perturbations travel at the speed of light and are called gravity waves.

** And there is no distinction between propagating waves and the force itself.**

The above are quotes from two physicists. And I could sit here all day and quote hundreds more that agree with this from a science and math forum..

[FWIW]

No idea whatsoever.

But I would try a search on google of "Ruffolo" and "Mahidol", and click the first or second links. There are email addys of someone who could probably answer your question (and any others you have). Given your target, I am sure he would be helpful.

[morrobay]

And for a point of interest for the kids : Gravitational Force moves at the speed of light.

that gravitational force is not static/existing but "moves" is an assumption. even Kopeikin could only present circumstantial but no hard evidence about a decade ago to prove "ol' Albert" was right.

Here is some educational easy reading for you:

www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/grav_speed.html

Or just google : does gravity travel at speed of light. baez/physics

By the way someone above was correct that the mass of a planet is not involved in planetary motion.( because it is so small compared to suns mass.

Keplars Law of Planetary Motion : T² = 4 Pi² r³ / G (mass sun )

T = period of revolution . For earth = 365 days

[monty1412]

Just a suggestion here not a criticism.... you state you want to put it into layman terms... mention the word Newtons and you've lost the layman... suggest you relate this proportionally to something the layman understands.... for example

If the pulling power or force a big tourist bus can use to pull from rest is equated to the gravitational pull of sun on earth then Neptune being 30 AU units away would probably experience the same gravitational pull as a small bicycle can compartivey exert in terms of pulling power... , Mercury a motorcycle.

Although i have qualifications in chemistry and maths and don't have issue with scientific jargon I just feel that if it is the layman you want to educate then do it in a " currency" or unit of measure that they can relate to .

As an aside and to demonstrate the average layman's ignorance re science I will never forget a survey result they did in UK where people were asked what various famous scientists had done or were famous for without revealing they were scientists

Schrodinger.... famous classical composer/ Charlie Brown character

Neils Bohr.. arctic explorer

Marie Curie.... mix of answers between entertainer/ famous Madam and wax works proprietor

Einstein.... more well known but allot of answers were oriented at him just being genius

Darwin.. explorer and discoverer of the islands with the big turtles ( sic)

Newton.. guy with the apple and a few answers had him beating the french at Trafalgar and / or Waterloo

Watson and Crick.... detectives, Sherlock Holmes sidekicks

And the ones I love

Galileo.. builder of the leaning tower of Pisa

Edwin Hubble.. internet web site creator

Heisenburg... guy whose balloon blew up

Hope it helps, just a thought

[melsnet]

Ivan, shame on you, no Pluto.

It will always be considered a planet despite the AU decision.

[Starbooks]

Anyway, thanks for the input everyone, glad there is still some grey matter functioning in Pattaya..

I (wrongly) presumed that the gravitational pull from the sun would greatly reduce over a distnce of 4.5 billion km

and could only imagine that the sun's grip on neptune must be quite weak, but it obviously isn't... so I won't mention it on the poster...

any other solar system facts for adults will be welcome........

Oh, by the way, anyone got a grasp on this holographic theory? the thoery that suggests our reallity is just holographic projections of information from deep space?!?

http://en.wikipedia....aphic_principle

Edited April 4, 2012 by Starbooks

[Starbooks]

Just a suggestion here not a criticism.... you state you want to put it into layman terms... mention the word Newtons and you've lost the layman... suggest you relate this proportionally to something the layman understands.... for example

If the pulling power or force a big tourist bus can use to pull from rest is equated to the gravitational pull of sun on earth then Neptune being 30 AU units away would probably experience the same gravitational pull as a small bicycle can compartivey exert in terms of pulling power... , Mercury a motorcycle.

Although i have qualifications in chemistry and maths and don't have issue with scientific jargon I just feel that if it is the layman you want to educate then do it in a " currency" or unit of measure that they can relate to .

As an aside and to demonstrate the average layman's ignorance re science I will never forget a survey result they did in UK where people were asked what various famous scientists had done or were famous for without revealing they were scientists

Schrodinger.... famous classical composer/ Charlie Brown character

Neils Bohr.. arctic explorer

Marie Curie.... mix of answers between entertainer/ famous Madam and wax works proprietor

Einstein.... more well known but allot of answers were oriented at him just being genius

Darwin.. explorer and discoverer of the islands with the big turtles ( sic)

Newton.. guy with the apple and a few answers had him beating the french at Trafalgar and / or Waterloo

Watson and Crick.... detectives, Sherlock Holmes sidekicks

And the ones I love

Galileo.. builder of the leaning tower of Pisa

Edwin Hubble.. internet web site creator

Heisenburg... guy whose balloon blew up

Hope it helps, just a thought

I agree with using 'real world' examples of the force but I don't want it too childish (If you understand what I mean). As for the survey... nothing surprises me on peoples ignorance anymore!!

I will mention PLUTO as gone but not forgotten!

Edited April 4, 2012 by Starbooks

[raro]

Can I use this in a conversation as what is the pull between me and those two big orbs in your dress, young lady?

Also is that the reason, gravitational attraction of those two orbs being pressed together to form a cleavage?

Easy to find out the answers to your questions if you apply the theorem - the mass of the arse is equal to the angle of the dangle.

..and for a minute I lost my faith in the Pattaya forum, thanks for restoring it