Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[rixalex]

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.

You make it sound´s like he got a parking ticket.

And if you read KireB post #320..........it would appear he may have been singled out of a long line........interesting eh?

Not interesting, no. Profoundly boring actually. In the history of mankind has there ever been a case in which the guilt of the convicted is so roundly accepted by all - even accepted by the convict himself - and yet elicits so much of the "why only him?!", the, "but it was politically motivated", and the, "it was only a tiny little minor trifling offence" whinging?

It's sooooo tedious. Yes, often times powerful people get away with their crimes. For once that didn't happen... well actually i guess it kind of did because of course he'll never spend a day behind bars and all the other cases against him will likely never get to court.... that aside, he did get convicted! What a miracle! All the more amazing considering his known capabilities in dodging the law as exemplified in the assets concealment case and all the more amazing when considering the million baht bribe that perhaps on another occasion might have done the trick.

For law abiding folk, a true victory for justice. For others, something to moan about.

[gand]

I would have thought it shifting away with the more frequent and more vocal displeasure, including Thida's veiled threat to the PTP, from their crucial Red Shirts. Add in the dozen Red Shirt Leaders who are Pheu Thai MP's and are being pressured to pull from the main PTP platform of amnesty for all and no change in Art. 112 and populist promises failure, etc. coupled with three successive losses in recent by-elections.

There's no shortage of PTP disunity and the "tides of power" is going out, not coming in.

The Red Shirts and rights groups have called on the new government, led by Thaksin's sister Yingluck, to prosecute soldiers and officials responsible for causing the deaths and injuries, many to unarmed demonstrators.

"We have to seek justice otherwise the use of force to crackdown on protesters may happen again," Red Shirt leader Thida Thavorseth said Friday.

One would think Thida was not particularly enamored nor receptive to fugitive ex-PM Thaksin's video-link reply to "her" Red masses "seeking justice":

"Let's put unity before justice"

sort of sets the stage for the necessity to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again.

Impatient Thai red shirts want justice from PM Yingluck

Thailand's "red shirts" took to the street this weekend to mark the anniversary of the army's bloody repression of their mass rally in Bangkok in 2010 amid growing signs of a rift with the government they helped elect last July. Many red shirts are angry at the failure of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to bring to account those responsible for the 91 deaths during the 2010 events.

Some are threatening action that could destabilise her government and start another period of political upheaval, after months of relative calm. At least 20,000 people attended the rally, which ended peacefully in the early hours of Sunday. They blocked a major crossroads where a huge shopping mall was set on fire during the dispersal of the 2010 rally.

"My son has been in prison for two years and hasn't been allowed bail. I haven't received any help from this government to get him out," said Bantao Muangkot, whose son was arrested for allegedly setting fire to a town hall in the northeast. Families of those killed fear a political amnesty bill proposed by the Yingluck government could see charges dropped against those guilty of crimes related to Thailand's six-year political crisis, including members of the military, former ministers now in opposition and ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Continues:

http://www.chicagotr...0,2498396.story

Chicago Tribune (Reuters) - May 19, 2012

I hope they get it, found guilty of the deaths of their 2010 riot and terrorism, including Thaksin. I hope they all get long prison sentences.

[473geo]

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.

You make it sound´s like he got a parking ticket.

And if you read KireB post #320..........it would appear he may have been singled out of a long line........interesting eh?

Not interesting, no. Profoundly boring actually. In the history of mankind has there ever been a case in which the guilt of the convicted is so roundly accepted by all - even accepted by the convict himself - and yet elicits so much of the "why only him?!", the, "but it was politically motivated", and the, "it was only a tiny little minor trifling offence" whinging?

It's sooooo tedious. Yes, often times powerful people get away with their crimes. For once that didn't happen... well actually i guess it kind of did because of course he'll never spend a day behind bars and all the other cases against him will likely never get to court.... that aside, he did get convicted! What a miracle! All the more amazing considering his known capabilities in dodging the law as exemplified in the assets concealment case and all the more amazing when considering the million baht bribe that perhaps on another occasion might have done the trick.

For law abiding folk, a true victory for justice. For others, something to moan about.

A true victory for justice......in Thailand.....where the law is maleable to say the least.....as you wish....now if there had been same speed of justice and progress on the Tak Bai incident....charging those deemed directly responsible for the deaths........ well your victory for justice regarding a financial transaction would perhaps not sound quite so contrived....and hollow.......

[phiphidon]

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

You still really believe that the troops present that day were only equipped with riot shields and batons? Not accompanied by troops with live ammunition?

Two years on from the fateful events of April 10, 2010, Thais of various political persuasions still hold starkly different versions of history and no one has been held responsible for the deaths.

On that day, two dozen people from both sides were killed when Army troops were dispatched to disperse red-shirt protesters along Rajdamnoen Avenue and clashed with both red shirts and the so-called "mysterious-and-armed men in black"..........

..........To the red shirts it was a day of infamy for the then-Abhisit Vejjajiva administration and the Army as they resorted to the use of armed soldiers to disperse the crowd in a way that goes against the international norm of using riot police to achieve such an objective.

http://www.nationmul...l-30179818.html

Anti-government protesters killed in street clashes on Saturday were shot with high-velocity bullets, according to police pathologists.

Autopsies on 11 bodies found nine died from gunshot wounds to the head or chest. One man died from heart failure. The final body was that of Japanese cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who was shot in the chest. His cause of death was not disclosed.

The Thai government denied soldiers fired live rounds. "Weapons were only used in self-defence and to fire into the air," said government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn. "We have found no evidence that soldiers used weapons against the people," said a spokesman.

http://www.guardian....ocrat-party-ban

Finally, former deputy prime minister for security and one-time head of the Center for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) Suthep Thaugsuban has admitted that a leaked document showing that the center had ordered security officers to use live rounds during last year's protests is in fact authentic.............

..............He pointed out that the documents disseminated by the press omitted the dates they were drafted in an effort to imply that they were premature. This is demonstrably untrue. In the spread found in Khao Sod Newspaper, the three pages of the CRES order clearly are dated April 10 and 13. The print even bares a caption indicating that the pages are dated.

[Buchholz]

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

How so? If the "experts" on Tvisa are to be believed, the last protest was "manufactured" and financially supported by Thaksin. The red shirts have no substance other than being paid attendees......which would surely not be the case if they opposed the current government...

Or are you saying the Tvisa "experts" are wrong?

There's no shortage of money in the Red Shirts Leaders. Jatuporn and Natthawut are, by their MP asset declaration statements, millionaires.

If a large segment of Reds decided to leave the Pheu Thai fold, there are enough financiers (albeit much less than on a Thaksin scale) to sustain an offensive movement on the government, if the likes of the above wealthy Red Shirt Leaders choose to join them.

If they feel done in and deceived by empty Pheu Thai pledges the rift could widen. With Thida already setting the stage for a return to the similar violence the Red Shirts did against the last administration, it could quite easily, escalate to a similar level.

Her warning above that predicts the same sort of violence and the same sort of crackdown is disconcerting.

.

[tlansford]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

There were dozens of M79 grenade attacks before that date. And what makes you think the sniper was RTA and not red/black shirt ex military?

The first casualty was a protester - I understand that the sniper was not identified. I know that it is a favorite tactic to accuse the UDD of killing its own, but I personally don't find that to be the most likely scenario.

Grenade attacks ... I do not recall any grenade attacks at the protest site against the police/army prior to the dispersal attempt on April 10th.

But again, that does not justify the violence on either side, does it? Let's say that the protesters were fired on first by the military... does that justify the militant red shirts' counter-attack? Let's say the militant red shirts attacked the military first ... does that justify the military attacking the protesters?

[Buchholz]

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

The fact that you find this photo not constructive is absurd! The red shirt movement had an armed element that instigated the violence we saw in 2010. Photos, interviews and film material support this argument. How can evidence not be constructive? Next you're gonna tell me these photos are fake!

The point is that he (skywalker) was just baiting.

The deaths of soldiers are equally depressing as the deaths of the journalists or protesters.

But the post was still just a trolling attempt.

His post was in response to this:

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

The suggestion was obviously that all 90+ people were reds and were killed by the army. The post mocks people who might dispute these two lies by asking whether they committed suicide.

Your trollometer is on the blink.

too much internal interference with the meter

[KunMatt]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

[473geo]

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

How so? If the "experts" on Tvisa are to be believed, the last protest was "manufactured" and financially supported by Thaksin. The red shirts have no substance other than being paid attendees......which would surely not be the case if they opposed the current government...

Or are you saying the Tvisa "experts" are wrong?

There's no shortage of money in the Red Shirts Leaders. Jatuporn and Natthawut are, by their MP asset declaration statements, millionaires.

If a large segment of Reds decided to leave the Pheu Thai fold, there are enough financiers (albeit much less than on a Thaksin scale) to sustain an offensive movement on the government, if the likes of the above wealthy Red Shirt Leaders choose to join them.

If they feel done in and deceived by empty Pheu Thai pledges the rift could widen. With Thida already setting the stage for a return to the similar violence the Red Shirts did against the last administration, it could quite easily, escalate to a similar level.

Her warning above that predicts the same sort of violence and the same sort of crackdown is disconcerting.

.

Your are months behind Geriatric kid and others with your statement......but getting there!...... by the way I believe the protest cost was supposedly billions.......you know how many millionaires it would take to fund such a venture........naming one or two doesn't quite cut it........and they have to be prepared to give all......you think?

[rixalex]

Not interesting, no. Profoundly boring actually. In the history of mankind has there ever been a case in which the guilt of the convicted is so roundly accepted by all - even accepted by the convict himself - and yet elicits so much of the "why only him?!", the, "but it was politically motivated", and the, "it was only a tiny little minor trifling offence" whinging?

It's sooooo tedious. Yes, often times powerful people get away with their crimes. For once that didn't happen... well actually i guess it kind of did because of course he'll never spend a day behind bars and all the other cases against him will likely never get to court.... that aside, he did get convicted! What a miracle! All the more amazing considering his known capabilities in dodging the law as exemplified in the assets concealment case and all the more amazing when considering the million baht bribe that perhaps on another occasion might have done the trick.

For law abiding folk, a true victory for justice. For others, something to moan about.

A true victory for justice......in Thailand.....where the law is maleable to say the least.....as you wish....now if there had been same speed of justice and progress on the Tak Bai incident....charging those deemed directly responsible for the deaths........ well your victory for justice regarding a financial transaction would perhaps not sound quite so contrived....and hollow.......

The only difference here is i am hailing one victory and calling for more, whilst you are moaning, dismissing and mocking one victory and calling for more. Makes me wonder whether you really are calling for more. Perhaps you'll just moan, dismiss and mock the next victory that comes along. Guess that will depend on the political colouring of those involved...

[473geo]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

[hyperdimension]

In fact the constant resetting of the country in the last 80 years is exactly what has brought us to where we are today

Thaksin's stubborn insistence to keep on fighting his way back into power, even if it involved violence, disabling injuries and deaths, plays a significant part too in bringing us to where we are today. Most people would simply retire with the billions, but not this madman.

now if Thailand is allowed to go through the process of elections, and yes perhaps even a few terms of poor government, to finally abandon the coup method, they might just catch up in the global village, so in that concept the red shirts may not have protested and died in vain.....

So do you think the deaths have been worth having in the big picture?

[Buchholz]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Since way back when when Thida was made Interim President of the Red Shirts, she kept spouting it (the Red Shirts) wasn't about Thaksin.

If she hasn't just been playing a ruse on her followers all this time, now is the time for her and them to show it and prove it.

Opportunity is knocking for her and Reds to completely disassociate from Thaksin (and for real this time) and go off on their own agenda.... which is allegedly to seek justice.

Will they follow that path or will they crack and meekly accept Thaksin's priority of amnesty of all?

Time to sh*t or get off the pot.

.

[473geo]

Not interesting, no. Profoundly boring actually. In the history of mankind has there ever been a case in which the guilt of the convicted is so roundly accepted by all - even accepted by the convict himself - and yet elicits so much of the "why only him?!", the, "but it was politically motivated", and the, "it was only a tiny little minor trifling offence" whinging?

It's sooooo tedious. Yes, often times powerful people get away with their crimes. For once that didn't happen... well actually i guess it kind of did because of course he'll never spend a day behind bars and all the other cases against him will likely never get to court.... that aside, he did get convicted! What a miracle! All the more amazing considering his known capabilities in dodging the law as exemplified in the assets concealment case and all the more amazing when considering the million baht bribe that perhaps on another occasion might have done the trick.

For law abiding folk, a true victory for justice. For others, something to moan about.

A true victory for justice......in Thailand.....where the law is maleable to say the least.....as you wish....now if there had been same speed of justice and progress on the Tak Bai incident....charging those deemed directly responsible for the deaths........ well your victory for justice regarding a financial transaction would perhaps not sound quite so contrived....and hollow.......

The only difference here is i am hailing one victory and calling for more, whilst you are moaning, dismissing and mocking one victory and calling for more. Makes me wonder whether you really are calling for more. Perhaps you'll just moan, dismiss and mock the next victory that comes along. Guess that will depend on the political colouring of those involved...

I will call the victory for justice when it is applied and received by all....not to suit a few....and then subsequently ignored,,,,

[whybother]

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

You forget the army personnel that were killed. Did they commit suicide?

The red shirts were armed with guns and grenades and have the blood of some of those 91 "civilians" on their hands.

[473geo]

In fact the constant resetting of the country in the last 80 years is exactly what has brought us to where we are today

Thaksin's stubborn insistence to keep on fighting his way back into power, even if it involved violence, disabling injuries and deaths, plays a significant part too in bringing us to where we are today. Most people would simply retire with the billions, but not this madman.

now if Thailand is allowed to go through the process of elections, and yes perhaps even a few terms of poor government, to finally abandon the coup method, they might just catch up in the global village, so in that concept the red shirts may not have protested and died in vain.....

So do you think the deaths have been worth having in the big picture?

I am disgusted that any deaths occurred, the worst for me was the pulling the soldier out of the truck by some protestors, but there were others, that one just sticks in my mind........but there were people out there who knew they could be shot......I don't believe they were there because it was financially rewarding....just my opinion.....it is easy to criticise the actions of the government alongside the protestors, but in reality most on this forum are removed from the tacit reality of politics in Thailand....people died....it is sad... I hope Thailand learns and moves forward...

[473geo]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

"I prefer to just call myself photographer, I am not such a good journalist." - Nick Nostitz

Photographers need an eye for detail, and for sure need to be fully aware of what is going on around them......your point being?

[rixalex]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

The problem with Nick's reporting isn't to do with how well informed he is, it is to do with the slant he applies. I daresay if i were in such close contact with red shirts as they were waging war in the streets of Bangkok, i too might be affected by sympathies, emotions and personal relationships. It's human nature. A bit like the way Stockholm Syndrome works.

[nicknostitz]

"I prefer to just call myself photographer, I am not such a good journalist." - Nick Nostitz

When do you tire of repeating something i have said 11 years ago?

Then - in 2001 - this was a valid statement. Now we have 2012, and i have managed to learn a bit about journalism in those 11 years, and especially in the past almost 6 years since the coup.

[moe666]

I don't need to elaborate, like many, you need to accept that Thailand has not arrived at this place in time due to one man. When you can adapt and broaden your view, read a little of the information available outside Tvisa, you may understand. Thaksin has played a part in the proceedings no doubt, another massive miscalculation by the would be controllers, but you understimate the importance of the real power brokers in action. If you understand you will have noticed the shifting sands that await Thai politics yet again.......

I do actually agree with most of what you write here! Thaksin is indeed a continuation of the corrupt lot of politicians that came before him and I agree that he forms only a part of the real active power brokers. Unfortunately we cannot elaborate on the others as you might well understand! But your use of words like: " when you can adapt, broaden your view, read a little, you underestimate, if you understand, are a bit too much! Almost cocky!

Whether Thaksin is a continuation or not, corrupt politicians have to go to prison! Welcome to the new world, Saddam got a trial, Milosevic and Mladic got theirs, Kadaffi is past history and so is Osama, and what about Mubarak? Thaksin is and was a corrupt criminal, called politician, and will have to held responsible! What happened in the last 80 years in Thailand is irrelevant if the Thais want to move on in this global world! And the whole red shirt movement is not one, but ten steps back in time. Do you understand?

I believe at the moment Thaksin is convicted of financial irregularity.......nothing more.....a 2 year jail sentence which he chooses to avoid......

Now if you are to call all leaders who have forces who have caused casualties, in what they see as the best interests of their country........then you have a long list of criminals.....and by far all are not politicians either......

In fact the constant resetting of the country in the last 80 years is exactly what has brought us to where we are today, now if Thailand is allowed to go through the process of elections, and yes perhaps even a few terms of poor government, to finally abandon the coup method, they might just catch up in the global village, so in that concept the red shirts may not have protested and died in vain.....

Unless Big T gets his money back they have died in vain.

[rixalex]

Not interesting, no. Profoundly boring actually. In the history of mankind has there ever been a case in which the guilt of the convicted is so roundly accepted by all - even accepted by the convict himself - and yet elicits so much of the "why only him?!", the, "but it was politically motivated", and the, "it was only a tiny little minor trifling offence" whinging?

It's sooooo tedious. Yes, often times powerful people get away with their crimes. For once that didn't happen... well actually i guess it kind of did because of course he'll never spend a day behind bars and all the other cases against him will likely never get to court.... that aside, he did get convicted! What a miracle! All the more amazing considering his known capabilities in dodging the law as exemplified in the assets concealment case and all the more amazing when considering the million baht bribe that perhaps on another occasion might have done the trick.

For law abiding folk, a true victory for justice. For others, something to moan about.

A true victory for justice......in Thailand.....where the law is maleable to say the least.....as you wish....now if there had been same speed of justice and progress on the Tak Bai incident....charging those deemed directly responsible for the deaths........ well your victory for justice regarding a financial transaction would perhaps not sound quite so contrived....and hollow.......

The only difference here is i am hailing one victory and calling for more, whilst you are moaning, dismissing and mocking one victory and calling for more. Makes me wonder whether you really are calling for more. Perhaps you'll just moan, dismiss and mock the next victory that comes along. Guess that will depend on the political colouring of those involved...

I will call the victory for justice when it is applied and received by all....not to suit a few....and then subsequently ignored,,,,

Yes well, as i say, never has a guilty conviction been so roundly accepted but at the same time so frequently moaned about. People wanting a step forward for justice but when one comes along, "oh no, hold on a sec, we didn't want that step forward in justice".

[OzMick]

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

You still really believe that the troops present that day were only equipped with riot shields and batons? Not accompanied by troops with live ammunition?

Actually, no, though its quite possible that politicians didn't know about it. It would be quite normal, given the size of the crowd to be dispersed, the extremely violent rhetoric being fed them and past history of violent assault, to have some troops carrying rifles, and usually a mix of blank and live rounds - blanks for fear-mongering, live rounds if things got really ugly. WHICH IT DID. But to a much greater extent than was anticipated. I mean really, who expects "peaceful protesters" to conduct an ambush strike?

Now that I have answered your question, would you answer mine in the post you chose to reply to?

[philw]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Since way back when when Thida was made Interim President of the Red Shirts, she kept spouting it (the Red Shirts) wasn't about Thaksin.

If she hasn't just been playing a ruse on her followers all this time, now is the time for her and them to show it and prove it.

Opportunity is knocking for her and Reds to completely disassociate from Thaksin (and for real this time) and go off on their own agenda.... which is allegedly to seek justice.

Will they follow that path or will they crack and meekly accept Thaksin's priority of amnesty of all?

Time to sh*t or get off the pot.

.

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Since way back when when Thida was made Interim President of the Red Shirts, she kept spouting it (the Red Shirts) wasn't about Thaksin.

If she hasn't just been playing a ruse on her followers all this time, now is the time for her and them to show it and prove it.

Opportunity is knocking for her and Reds to completely disassociate from Thaksin (and for real this time) and go off on their own agenda.... which is allegedly to seek justice.

Will they follow that path or will they crack and meekly accept Thaksin's priority of amnesty of all?

Time to sh*t or get off the pot.

.

I'm sure that you will agree that when the red shirts, to quote you " get off the pot" it will be an improvement on the participatory politic of Thailand.

I know it's a nuisance but them pesky red voters are determined to be heard.

And there are a few million of them and they are increasingly aware .

How is it in Siricha these days ??

[Buchholz]

Actually the red-shirts could hold lots of sway with a similar mass protest as before. How would this government respond ? - they were voted in by the red-shirt populace afterall, and there would be plenty of red-shirts occupying positions of power in the military and police force. However, bringing everyone to justice includes deaths / bombings / burning caused by red shirts, so perhaps more protests won't help their cause. Perhaps they expect individuals to be brought to justice, but in most cases I don't see that happening. It could come back to haunt them later.

How so? If the "experts" on Tvisa are to be believed, the last protest was "manufactured" and financially supported by Thaksin. The red shirts have no substance other than being paid attendees......which would surely not be the case if they opposed the current government...

Or are you saying the Tvisa "experts" are wrong?

There's no shortage of money in the Red Shirts Leaders. Jatuporn and Natthawut are, by their MP asset declaration statements, millionaires.

If a large segment of Reds decided to leave the Pheu Thai fold, there are enough financiers (albeit much less than on a Thaksin scale) to sustain an offensive movement on the government, if the likes of the above wealthy Red Shirt Leaders choose to join them.

If they feel done in and deceived by empty Pheu Thai pledges the rift could widen. With Thida already setting the stage for a return to the similar violence the Red Shirts did against the last administration, it could quite easily, escalate to a similar level.

Her warning above that predicts the same sort of violence and the same sort of crackdown is disconcerting.

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Your are months behind Geriatric kid and others with your statement......but getting there!...... by the way I believe the protest cost was supposedly billions.......you know how many millionaires it would take to fund such a venture........naming one or two doesn't quite cut it........and they have to be prepared to give all......you think?

LOL... whatever your babbling about geriatrickid I have no idea what it is.

In terms of financing, there's no shortage of cash if any number of those people on the frozen asset list got together and decided to side with the Red Shirts. The Reds I mentioned are just a few of dozens... many with much larger assets.

Besides, it is not necessary that it cost all that much. There's no reason that the fourth time around (2007, 2009, 2010) for Red Shirt street violence has to change previous tactics. They have the capability to create a lot of upheaval with not all that much real expense. Hijacking a gas tanker is free. Hijacking and then burning a runaway bus is but 5 baht for a lighter. Urban tactics like these don't necessarily need "billions".

The disconcerting aspect is that with this time around, the Reds may feel they have nothing to lose after having been deceived by their financier from their earlier battles. If it turns out to be a real wake-up call to them and they feel done in, their anger could facilitate a much darker time than even before.

They could just decide to let it all hang out this time and go for broke.

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[Buchholz]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

Your question is not simple enough, Matt.

That's why it goes unanswered.

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[nicknostitz]

The problem with Nick's reporting isn't to do with how well informed he is, it is to do with the slant he applies. I daresay if i were in such close contact with red shirts as they were waging war in the streets of Bangkok, i too might be affected by sympathies, emotions and personal relationships. It's human nature. A bit like the way Stockholm Syndrome works.

It is rather tiring to constantly be analyzed by our forum pseudo-psychoanalysts who have never even met me. I am a photographer and writer - not Britney Spears.

And for your information - if i would indeed only be close to Red Shirts, then you may have a point. I am no less close to friends in the security forces, to many of my colleagues, to academics, to diplomats, and even some yellow shirts. There are more than enough people with whom i can bounce ideas, share and discuss information objectively. This is not just professionally important, but also personally as i am not like you here, who seems to prefer to debate in a mutual appreciation society while rejecting everything that anyone whose views you do not agree upon comes up with.

[beammeup]

Paid to riot, Paid to vote, Paid if you are a victim. As they say, follow the money.

That's a great question. It is obvious you have not been in Thailand long and certainly not on Thai Visa long. I don't see any great political savvy or understanding of national or international politics on your part. Why are you posting about Thai politics and always anti Red shirts? Why? What do you get out of it? What do you think will be the outcome of you jumping up and down and saying I agree I agree the Reds are bad. You don't say anything new or different. Why do you post? Do you think your actions will accomplish something? Anything? I'm not trying to critique you. I am curious why. Is there a group that funds the Farang anti Red shirts. I know your point about the Reds being paid has some validity but is there also a group that financially contributes to people who are opposed to them?

Im not getting payed to dislike the reds. But I certainly do

[KunMatt]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

Your question is not simple enough, Matt.

That's why it goes unanswered.

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We'll see. Its getting late here so maybe PPD has called it a night (actually, I have no idea if he does in fact reside in Thailand).

If he posts again ignoring my basic question then Ill assume he was nowhere near the riots and only harbours his facts from TV (in this instance, both this forum and television!).

[OzMick]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

There were dozens of M79 grenade attacks before that date. And what makes you think the sniper was RTA and not red/black shirt ex military?

The first casualty was a protester - I understand that the sniper was not identified. I know that it is a favorite tactic to accuse the UDD of killing its own, but I personally don't find that to be the most likely scenario.

Grenade attacks ... I do not recall any grenade attacks at the protest site against the police/army prior to the dispersal attempt on April 10th.

But again, that does not justify the violence on either side, does it? Let's say that the protesters were fired on first by the military... does that justify the militant red shirts' counter-attack? Let's say the militant red shirts attacked the military first ... does that justify the military attacking the protesters?

As you ignored my questions, I will repeat them.

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

In answer to yours, yes it is justifiable for security forces to attack violent armed criminals using illegal weapons to attack security forces and the general populace, under orders of the legitimate government of the day.

[moe666]

A picture is worth a thousand words we are told. This particular image left me speechless,.

Do we now see the true face of the Red Shirt movement appearing led by a despotic character who resides outside of the Kingdom.

Graphic image courtesy of http://www.facebook....35060922&type=1

Do you actually think they have any idea what the meaning of a swastika is? Most Thais I speak to had no history lessons of any real sort. When you ask the average Thai with a high school education (much less without!) what they know about world war II, they stare at you. Have you ever asked a Thai to point out Poland, or Germany on a map? Have you ever asked a Thai what they know about the Third Reich?

Do you know what the swastika means in buddhism.