Interesting data from the Pew Forum's recent (Dec, 2011) report on the size and distribution of the world's Christian population.

http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Global-Christianity-exec.aspx

The shift in proportion of Christians living in the "global north" to the "global south" is dramatic. In 1910, 93.4% of the world's Christians lived in Europe and the Americas. One hundred years later (2010) the numbers given were 62.7% and 35.3% (some rounding needed here).

And if we look at the ten countries with the most Christian countries in 2010, they include Nigeria, China and the DR Congo, ranking 6th, 7th and 8th respectively.

Although the number of Christians in the world has increased dramatically from 1.75 billion in 1910 to 6.89 billion in 2010, this is roughly in line with total population growth, and the proportion of Christians in the total has in fact declined slightly (from 34.8% in 1910 to 31.7% in 2010), largely because of a substantial decrease in people identifying as Christians in the global north from 86.7% to 69%.

When asked why Christianity is now flourishing in the global south and withering away in the north, I have usually answered that it fills a vacuum in the south and that that region has still not had an experience similar to the 18th century European Enlightenment. However, Christianity, which, though it often presents itself in primitive forms (appealing to pre-Enlightenment people), is also at heart a religion based on reason (the Logos/Son/second person in the Trinity, is the rational principle in the Christian godhead), so it has also some appeal to people looking for a reason-based foundation for their lives. In addition, its strong commitment to charitable work appeals to many.

But if Christianity is declining in the global north, because its spurious founding narrative and stained history no longer appeal to better educated Europeans and people of European origin, and its metaphors no longer have any impact, why is it that increasing numbers of Europeans, especially young women, are turning to Islam, sometimes in a radical, Caliphate-seeking form? Some answers are suggested in this article, http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2790/europeans-converting-to-islam, and they seem persuasive, but they leave other questions unanswered. For example, why do people turn to Islam and not, e.g. Buddhism? Perhaps it is because they see disrespect and insecurity as dominant features in European society, and Buddhism, for example, has no strong social platform, whereas Islam is strong on building communities guided by clear social and behavioural mandates.

However, the search for security and certainty in one's life in a post-Enlightenment society suggests that the Enlightenment project has been only partially successful. It replaced the irrational aspects of religion by reason and the scientific method, but applied those processes only to phenomena (as Theravada Buddhists also tend to do); ignoring the paraphenomenal/metaphysical/noumenal plane of possible existence, i.e. the "spiritual" realm, a realm that many seek. Whether or not there is such a realm tends to be dismissed by scientists and Popperian philosophers who will argue, quite reasonably, that such a realm can't be verified or falsified, so therefore it can't be considered. Unfortunately, the search for meaning, whether it be pursued by a half-educated Congolese tribesman or a post-graduate Belgian professional, requires one to look beyond phenomena, with their dependent origination and cause-effect mechanisms, to something that underpins the phenomenal realm. Christianity and Islam do offer answers, based on their claims. Mahayana and Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhism also do, especially the latter, and perhaps that explains why Tibetan forms of Buddhism are so popular in the West.

It would be interesting to have data on how many people in the world. North and South, believe that the only things worth believing or pursuing are those that can be verified or falsified by the methods of science.

There are 2.18 billion Christians, XSH, not 6.9 billion. According to the article, that is.

One can play about with these figures in all sorts of ways. First, what is their credibility? 79.5% of USAmericans are Christian? I know there are more practising Christians there than in most countries, but not that many.

Not surprising that more Christians convert to Islam than to Buddhism. Islam, like Christianity, is monotheistic, while Buddhism has no gods... in fact, it is a philosophy, not a religion.

Two things to think about... (1) how many of these Christians come from countries where it is regarded as the normal thing to be a Christian (whether you believe it or not)... just as in England everybody was C of E, unless otherwise stated.

(2) what is the split between traditionalist Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, the Coptic church etc) and Bible Christianity ( I use this term to cover those sects which rely on personal interpretation of the Bible, in the most general sense).

When comparing this with the % of Muslims in Islamic countries, remember that in many of those countries, you are a Muslim by default, and, probably, dead if you dissent.

79.5% of USAmericans are Christian?

That sounds accurate to me. That just means people who IDENTIFY as Christians. Like when they die, they'll get some kind of Christian rites. It doesn't mean they actually follow the religion in everyday life or go to church! That said, Americans are definitely a church going people. Not to my taste but that's the reality of it.

There are 2.18 billion Christians, XSH, not 6.9 billion. According to the article, that is.

Thank you, Isanbirder. I really should have picked that up.

(2) what is the split between traditionalist Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, the Coptic church etc) and Bible Christianity ( I use this term to cover those sects which rely on personal interpretation of the Bible, in the most general sense).

When comparing this with the % of Muslims in Islamic countries, remember that in many of those countries, you are a Muslim by default, and, probably, dead if you dissent.

It looks like just over 50% of the world's Christians are Roman Catholic (including the Eastern Rite churches in union with Rome); 37% are Protestant; 12% are Orthodox, and just over 1% are "Other Christian" (JWs, SDAs, Mormons, etc?).

It's a bit hard to say what percentage of Protestants are Bible Christians. I don't think you'd normally classify Anglicans that way, though I expect it is true of the Evangelical wing. Likewise, Liberal Protestants can now be found in the Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian traditions. I don't know about the Baptists.

As you say, and as Jingthing has addressed, these figures are pretty uninformative in terms of formal practice, e.g. church attendance. In Australia, for example, the 2011 census showed that 61% of the population identified as some form of Christian, but I would say that less than 10% of those attend church regularly. However, a much higher percentage indicate adherence in other ways. 26% of Australians send their children to church (mainly Catholic) schools, and many contribute to church-based charitable and social work, especially that of the Catholic Church and the Salvation Army. The Catholic Church is still by far the biggest non-government provider of education, health and welfare services and the biggest non-government employer in the country, so people may be expressing and enacting their Christian values through those agencies.

" Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today."

This quote comes from an earlier thread, and gives some information about the Catholic Church in the USA. There are certainly numerous schools/colleges belonging to other denominations; I'm not so sure about hospitals.

I was brought up as an Anglican; I agree that the Anglican communion includes traditionalists who are as diehard as the most right-wing Catholics, and evangelicals who go in for glossolalia and spiritual healing. I have known a Bishop who didn't believe in God. So, yes, I wouldn't know where to classify them.

" Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today."

This quote comes from an earlier thread, and gives some information about the Catholic Church in the USA. There are certainly numerous schools/colleges belonging to other denominations; I'm not so sure about hospitals.

I was brought up as an Anglican; I agree that the Anglican communion includes traditionalists who are as diehard as the most right-wing Catholics, and evangelicals who go in for glossolalia and spiritual healing. I have known a Bishop who didn't believe in God. So, yes, I wouldn't know where to classify them.

What are similar statistics for the Atheist belief?

" Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today."

This quote comes from an earlier thread, and gives some information about the Catholic Church in the USA. There are certainly numerous schools/colleges belonging to other denominations; I'm not so sure about hospitals.

What are similar statistics for the Atheist belief?

There are some interesting data in Wikipedia about this. http://en.wikipedia....eists_in_the_US

It seems that less than 2% of the US population describes itself as Atheist, but the figures for "no religion" are higher - up to 15%. I've just now read the relevant paragraph very quickly and have to race off, but it seems Atheism is still a very small minority view in the US. The statistics, however, seem a bit rubbery, as you will see from the Wikipedia article. Canada has a different profile again.

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When comparing this with the % of Muslims in Islamic countries, remember that in many of those countries, you are a Muslim by default, and, probably, dead if you dissent.

The same applies to many Christian countries, and not only to Christianity but a particulars sect of Christianity.

If you are born in Greece for instance, the chances are overwhelmingly good that you are born Christian by default,not only christian, but Orthodox Christian, and not only Orthodox Christian but Greek Orthodox Christian, and you better be baptized soon, because if you died you could not go to Heaven.

Much like tobacco smocking, get them hooked young and stupid.

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When comparing this with the % of Muslims in Islamic countries, remember that in many of those countries, you are a Muslim by default, and, probably, dead if you dissent.

The same applies to many Christian countries, and not only to Christianity but a particulars sect of Christianity.

If you are born in Greece for instance, the chances are overwhelmingly good that you are born Christian by default,not only christian, but Orthodox Christian, and not only Orthodox Christian but Greek Orthodox Christian, and you better be baptized soon, because if you died you could not go to Heaven.

Much like tobacco smocking, get them hooked young and stupid.

If you are a parent who believes in a certain religion, it is natural that you want your children to follow that religion as well. So you send them to an Orthodox school, probably a Sunday School as well; or if you're a Catholic, to a Catholic school. This is just normal. But the difference between a mediaeval and a modern way of thinking is that nowadays a modern parent would respect the child's decision to reject the faith he had been taught. Islam, in many countries, is still firmly lodged in the Middle Ages.

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When comparing this with the % of Muslims in Islamic countries, remember that in many of those countries, you are a Muslim by default, and, probably, dead if you dissent.

The same applies to many Christian countries, and not only to Christianity but a particulars sect of Christianity.

If you are born in Greece for instance, the chances are overwhelmingly good that you are born Christian by default,not only christian, but Orthodox Christian, and not only Orthodox Christian but Greek Orthodox Christian, and you better be baptized soon, because if you died you could not go to Heaven.

Much like tobacco smocking, get them hooked young and stupid.

If you are a parent who believes in a certain religion, it is natural that you want your children to follow that religion as well. So you send them to an Orthodox school, probably a Sunday School as well; or if you're a Catholic, to a Catholic school. This is just normal. But the difference between a mediaeval and a modern way of thinking is that nowadays a modern parent would respect the child's decision to reject the faith he had been taught. Islam, in many countries, is still firmly lodged in the Middle Ages.

No Doubt that many Muslim countries are more conservative than western countries.

But I am not so sure that parents in the West respect their child's decision to eccept or reject their faith, If that was true then the would not try to indoctrinate that child at such an young age.

Not all parents are as aggressive in their indoctrination process (and of course in their minds they don't view it as indoctrination, but that's exactly what it is) some are passive aggressive, personally and culturally.

The personal part is as you said " it is natural that you want your children to follow that religion as well" .The cultural is that in many countries religion is so embedded with in the cultural fabric of that society , that it is virtually impossible for a child to reject his parents religion with out rejecting,a big part of his/hers culture and in the process rejecting a big part of his/hers parents. A very tall order for a child.

So whether it is done aggressively as in the case of some Muslim countries, or more passive aggressively as in the west , the result is for the most part the same.

But I am not so sure that parents in the West respect their child's decision to eccept or reject their faith, If that was true then the would not try to indoctrinate that child at such an young age.

How much is indoctrination and how much is not wanting to pay for a babysitter when it's free to take the kid to church with you? That said, I went with my parents to church every Sunday. Mom & kids went inside and dad waited in the car.

But I am not so sure that parents in the West respect their child's decision to eccept or reject their faith, If that was true then the would not try to indoctrinate that child at such an young age.

How much is indoctrination and how much is not wanting to pay for a babysitter when it's free to take the kid to church with you? That said, I went with my parents to church every Sunday. Mom & kids went inside and dad waited in the car.

Sound like my Dad

No Doubt that many Muslim countries are more conservative than western countries.

But I am not so sure that parents in the West respect their child's decision to eccept or reject their faith, If that was true then the would not try to indoctrinate that child at such an young age.

Not all parents are as aggressive in their indoctrination process (and of course in their minds they don't view it as indoctrination, but that's exactly what it is) some are passive aggressive, personally and culturally.

The personal part is as you said " it is natural that you want your children to follow that religion as well" .The cultural is that in many countries religion is so embedded with in the cultural fabric of that society , that it is virtually impossible for a child to reject his parents religion with out rejecting,a big part of his/hers culture and in the process rejecting a big part of his/hers parents. A very tall order for a child.

So whether it is done aggressively as in the case of some Muslim countries, or more passive aggressively as in the west , the result is for the most part the same.

We live in an age where the mediaeval concept of the children automatically following their parents' religion is gradually giving way to the more modern idea of children being allowed to choose for themselves. I think it is the duty of the parents, if they have a strong belief themselves, to teach that belief to their children. At a young age, a child cannot choose for himself, probably not until he is 15 or 16.

In some countries this process hasn't even begun... especially in Muslim countries.... simply because the education system hasn't developed far enough. It does require a certain level of education to be able to make a choice.

It's a decision new parents have to make, whether to raise their children in a tradition, or heritage, or leave them to respond to whatever input they get from their environment - dinner table conversation, school, friends, media, etc.

We chose, four years after our youngest was born, to have the children baptized and raise them in the Catholic tradition, which we did very diligently until they made it quite clear they didn't want to attend Sunday Mass any more. Now one daughter is raising her children Catholic; the other is giving her boys no religious formation whatsoever (mainly because her husband, raised in an atheist family, feels very uncomfortable in any religious environment), and I'm not sure what my son plans for his 3 y.o., but he has had him baptized.

I suspect, despite my alienation (mainly on historical grounds) from the Catholic church now, I'd still be strongly tempted to send them to Catholic schools, as they are good schools and do name their beliefs and values. Children are challenged to think about beliefs and values and, although the church has a stand on things, there's no longer the kind of indoctrination that people used to complain about.

I don't think that being raised in a Christian religious tradition, at least in the West, locks kids in to anything.

I don't think that being raised in a Christian religious tradition, at least in the West, locks kids in to anything.

It is a difficult cookie to crumble,

In secular countries such as the US where I live it is easier

But in a country like Greece, where my sister lives and where I have spend significant enough time to understand the culture it is different.

In Greece and I am sure many other European countries,there is a national religion, and many if not all cultural events have a religious component. It is difficult to be Greek, and participate, in family events with our being a Christian or at least fake it real well, which is what i suspect most so called Christians do. And that explains the disparity between the faith and practice.

To reject Christianity in Greece , is almost a form of treason. and God forbid if your choice is Islam. So choice for most other than the very strong willed, is almost impossible..