1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

I'm no legal scholar, so I don't know what legal weight an article like the one above carries. Not much, I expect, given that it seems to be universally honoured in the breach. It also combines claims to facticity with statements of value.

I may not be a jurist, but I've been to plenty of seminars in my time where bored and tired participants cobble things like the above together so they can meet their objectives, please their constituencies, please each other, justify having been sent to the seminar, and get everything closed off so they can catch planes and get home in time for Friday Night Football (I'm thinking of this kind of event held in Canberra). This sort of thing was very popular in the 70s through to the early 90s when funding for them dried up. I'm not a big fan of the UN, and I suspect this is the way they come up with their declarations.

To state that "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights" is a value statement dressed up as a statement of fact. One might wish it were so; one might believe metaphysically that it is so, but it may in fact not be so. Indeed, operationally, it clearly is not so. It certainly doesn't apply to an Untouchable in India; nor does it confer dignity upon an infant born into an impoverished and/or marginalized community in many countries. Of course it should be so, and we know what the UN declarers are getting at, but one is not born equal and free in dignity and rights just because the UN or anyone says so. To believe that a declaration can bring about a state of being in a person is an example of ipsedixitism ("it is so because I say it is"). In linguistic philosophy it is an empty statement masquerading as a performative speech act. Unlike the speech act of a judge who says "I sentence you ...", the UN declaration above does not in fact perform anything; its words do not constitute an action.

So reference to the UN Declaration of Human Rights or any other pious appeal to good intentions and sweet reasonableness must be viewed within the serious limits, indeed, impotence of these statements and recommendations. If one is unhappy that some parents have their sons circumcised or give their daughters a smack on the bottom, and if one wishes to go further and forbid those parents from doing those things then one should have better reasons for imposing their will on others.

There have been calls for a number of years for the UDHR to be re-written though it would still remain impotent as you say. What it does show however is that in 1948 there was an understanding that human rights do not carry an age restriction. There has been a general movement toward the goals set in the UDHR, some slower than others but all IMO still have a work in progress sign on the door.

It is "fair" to the parents if they decide if the health benefits are worth a small amount of pain. What would be unfair is not allowing them a choice in the matter.

It is "fair" to the parents if they decide if the health benefits are worth a small amount of pain. What would be unfair is not allowing them a choice in the matter.

Remind me again of the health benefits that accrue between infancy and, let's say, puberty.

SC

I'd like to see a reason for the drop in circumcisions performed in the US in recent years.

If any of our stars and stripes posters could provide one would be grateful. I never realised this was so popular in the States to be honest.

funny, same argument used for tonsils. Now proven to be highly effective and necessary.

Actually I believe its a well documented fact that uncircumcised men have greater sensitivity since the frenulum is protected it is more sensitive. So yes in a way it is very similar to removing the hood over the clitoris. By exposing sensitive nerve endings, they become less sensitive. So, better sex for one thing.

Male circumcision which is normal and acceptable is NOT equivalent in any imaginable way to the barbaric and totally unacceptable practice of female genital mutilation.

I totally agree with sbk on this one on medical knowledge being a point in time. Normal and acceptable are also relative terms and change over time.

I would also say there is a parallel with female circumcision, although the effects are much more pronounced on female circumcision.

For a male who is uncircumcised there is a wider range of options and sensations available. Simply put an uncircumcised male can enjoy a wider range of sensations just based on whether the foreskin is retracted or not during sexual activities, and indeed the spectrum of in-betweens. A circumcised male has no such choice, and will never know any better what he might be missing out on.

For women stimulation of the vagina and clitoris produce different sensations. Some women prefer vaginal to clitoral stimulation in attaining orgasm. Women will often say that vaginal and clitoral orgasms feel different. Research shows different (but similar and close) areas of the brain are stimulated, as well as for example women with spinal injuries where the clitoris to brain link has been severed still being able to enjoy orgasms with vaginal stimulation. So removing the clitoris limits options, but does not totally preclude orgasm and enjoyment. A woman who has undergone female circumcision will similarly not know any better, in the same way a circumcised male knows no different. So there are indeed parallels on range of sensation as well as not knowing any different, even if magnitude differs.

BTW It is totally wrong to say there are no downsides to circumcision in terms of health. There are just pros and cons.

The article below gives some interesting perspectives on the "purpose of your prepuce".

http://www.drmomma.o...urposes-of.html

It also covers a wide range of areas from health to sexual satisfaction. I'd be surprised if most people didn't find at least one piece of info in there they hadn't thought of before.

Obviously the author has a point of view. What it helps highlight is that there are a much wider range of issues, and it's not as simple as often made out, plus your doctor or Imam or Rabbi rarely gives you all the info.

To me with so many variables at play that's the best reasons for leaving it to the child to decide when they are old enough... What you've never had (or remember having) you'll never miss might be OK for some people, but giving people the option to choose whether they want to be missing something or not is the way to go on this one...

How difficult is it to graft on a foreskin, if you decide the wrong decision was made?

SC

How difficult is it to graft on a foreskin, if you decide the wrong decision was made?

SC

It's not grafted, the existing skin is stretched and it takes a long time. There was a doco a few years back which you may find on YT but be warned, it will make your eyes water.

How difficult is it to graft on a foreskin, if you decide the wrong decision was made?

SC

It's not grafted, the existing skin is stretched and it takes a long time. There was a doco a few years back which you may find on YT but be warned, it will make your eyes water.

Sometimes you just know toooo much! And from a bulbous member...sorry but that's a scary image....

How difficult is it to graft on a foreskin, if you decide the wrong decision was made?

SC

It's not grafted, the existing skin is stretched and it takes a long time. There was a doco a few years back which you may find on YT but be warned, it will make your eyes water.

Sometimes you just know toooo much! And from a bulbous member...sorry but that's a scary image....

Imagine having a 45mm compression joint haning off the end of your blue veined custard chucker for a couple of months.

How difficult is it to graft on a foreskin, if you decide the wrong decision was made?

SC

It's not grafted, the existing skin is stretched and it takes a long time. There was a doco a few years back which you may find on YT but be warned, it will make your eyes water.

Sometimes you just know toooo much! And from a bulbous member...sorry but that's a scary image....

Imagine having a 45mm compression joint haning off the end of your blue veined custard chucker for a couple of months.

Crikey that third leg.....

brb

Obviously the author has a point of view.

That is putting it mildly. It is yet another website that does not even bother to pretend to be impartial. I will take medical science links over this kind of slanted propoganda every time and there have been very few factual medical links on this thread that supported banning parents having a choice about getting this procedure.

Ok, I removed one post that just took things into the realm of ridiculousness, and a reply to it.

"Circumcision is like fashion", thus spake Jingthing.

This is a bunch of intellectual masturbation. Circumcision isn't going anywhere and people with common sense can see it is not abuse, it is a CHOICE. It's like fashion. Right now it's decreasing in the U.S. and increasing in Africa.

Let us talk about fashion. I see that it has become increasingly fashionable, both for men and for women, to get tattooed. Therefore, let us go forth and have our children tattooed a few days after birth. Every tradition, religious or otherwise, had a beginning. Centuries from now, people will vociferously defend their right to have their newborn children tattooed, because by then it will be a long-standing tradition.

"Circumcision is like fashion", thus spake Jingthing.

This is a bunch of intellectual masturbation. Circumcision isn't going anywhere and people with common sense can see it is not abuse, it is a CHOICE. It's like fashion. Right now it's decreasing in the U.S. and increasing in Africa.

Let us talk about fashion. I see that it has become increasingly fashionable, both for men and for women, to get tattooed. Therefore, let us go forth and have our children tattooed a few days after birth. Every tradition, religious or otherwise, had a beginning. Centuries from now, people will vociferously defend their right to have their newborn children tattooed, because by then it will be a long-standing tradition.

THE GURU’S CAT

Each time the guru sat for worship with his students the ashram cat would come in to

distract them, so he ordered them to tie it when the ashram was at prayer.

After the guru died the cat continued to be tied at worship time. And when the cat

expired, another cat was brought into the ashram to make sure that the guru’s orders

were faithfully observed at worship time.

Centuries passed and learned treatises were written by the guru’s scholarly disciples

on the liturgical significance of tying up a cat while worship is performed.

Anthony de Mello, S.J. The Song of the Bird

http://www.arvindgup.../songofbird.pdf

"Circumcision is like fashion", thus spake Jingthing.

This is a bunch of intellectual masturbation. Circumcision isn't going anywhere and people with common sense can see it is not abuse, it is a CHOICE. It's like fashion. Right now it's decreasing in the U.S. and increasing in Africa.

Let us talk about fashion. I see that it has become increasingly fashionable, both for men and for women, to get tattooed. Therefore, let us go forth and have our children tattooed a few days after birth. Every tradition, religious or otherwise, had a beginning. Centuries from now, people will vociferously defend their right to have their newborn children tattooed, because by then it will be a long-standing tradition.

Most people with tattoos quite like them, but because no one in their right mind would actually volunteer to be tattooed, if they had the choice, we should do it when they are too young to express an opinion, or to resist

SC

THE GURU’S CAT

Each time the guru sat for worship with his students the ashram cat would come in to

distract them, so he ordered them to tie it when the ashram was at prayer.

After the guru died the cat continued to be tied at worship time. And when the cat

expired, another cat was brought into the ashram to make sure that the guru’s orders

were faithfully observed at worship time.

Centuries passed and learned treatises were written by the guru’s scholarly disciples

on the liturgical significance of tying up a cat while worship is performed.

Anthony de Mello, S.J. The Song of the Bird

http://www.arvindgup.../songofbird.pdf

This is most insightful, as are the other stories in the book. Thank you for the link.

This conversation has descended to a ridiculous level.

This conversation has descended to a ridiculous level.

A fine commendation indeed.

Personally, I'd be quite happy to let others make their own mind up on that.

And, out of interest, do you have an opinion on willy-trimming

SC

This conversation has descended to a ridiculous level.

A fine commendation indeed.

Personally, I'd be quite happy to let others make their own mind up on that.

And, out of interest, do you have an opinion on willy-trimming

SC

Seek and ye shall find.

for what it's worth:

he New York City Board of Health has voted to require Jewish parents to sign a written consent form that warns them about the risk of their sons contracting herpes via direct oral contact from a rabbi during a ritual circumcision.

The move follows the deaths of two children who contracted the herpes virus through a type of ritual circumcision. The ritual is commonplace in parts of the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, although it is rarer in other branches of Judaism.

The 5,000-year-old religious practice of circumcision is performed during a Jewish religious ceremony known as the bris.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2203081/New-York-forces-Jewish-parents-sign-disclaimers-case-baby-sons-catch-HERPES-ritual-circumcisions.html

The Three Samurai

There once was a powerful old Japanese emperor who needed a new chief samurai. So he sent out a declaration throughout the entire known world that he was searching for a chief. A year passed, and only three people applied for the very demanding position: a Japanese samurai, a Chinese samurai, and a Jewish samurai. The old emperor asked the Japanese samurai to come in and demonstrate why he should be the chief samurai.

The Japanese samurai opened a matchbox, and out popped a bumblebee. Whoosh! went his sword. The bumble bee dropped dead at the Emperor's feet, neatly chopped in half. The emperor exclaimed, "That is very impressive!"

The old emperor then issued the same challenge to the Chinese samurai, to come in and demonstrate why he should be chosen. The Chinese samurai also opened a matchbox and out buzzed a fly. Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh! The fly dropped dead at the Emperor's feet, neatly chopped into four small pieces. The old emperor exclaimed, "That is very impressive!"

Now the old emperor turned to the Jewish samurai, and asked him to demonstrate why he should be the chief samurai. The Jewish Samurai opened a matchbox, and out flew a gnat. His flashing sword went Whoosh! But the gnat was still alive and flying around. The emperor, obviously disappointed, said, "Very ambitious, but why is that gnat not dead?" The Jewish Samurai just smiled and said, "Circumcision is not meant to kill."

I am done and my 9 year old step son will be done next year.

It is wrong to call it the snip now days as there is no cutting involved, it is a simple ring that clamps around the member causing no discomfort, the skin drops off after a few days.

I wish my step son had been done at birth rather than at this age, but hey what the heck.

I am all for it...If I had a choice when I was a baby I would definately have chosen yes and would never have had a regret.

I remember when I was 12 my best mate had to have his cut off (back in the days that knives were used) and he was at that age when he was waking with a the morning glory, ouch. He was in pain for a long time and his folks regretted not having it done when he was a baby, I bet my mates own son has been done.

I am all for parents being able to choose. If I was in Australia and wasn't given the choice to have my son done I would simply take him to a country where it is still practised. Simple as that. But those who can't afford to travel will end up at a back yard type mob, where the "doc" has just finished using his coat hanger on his last patient, a female.

Anyway, this debate is one of those that will never win out either way as people have their own strong opinions, I know my opinion will never change, no matter how many woman call it abuse.

My Wife has been circumsized, she has a token piece of um how do I say this nicely, flap clipped off. That was religious purposes and she is fine with it, she is glad that it was done as it was done to dedicate her to God. Now I don't believe in God so I think all that is rubbish but she is happy and she made the choice when she was old enough. She wasn't mutilated.

It is wrong to call it the snip now days as there is no cutting involved, it is a simple ring that clamps around the member causing no discomfort, the skin drops off after a few days.

I sure wish that I had known this back when were battling away on this thread.

It is wrong to call it the snip now days as there is no cutting involved, it is a simple ring that clamps around the member causing no discomfort, the skin drops off after a few days.

I sure wish that I had known this back when were battling away on this thread.

Oh really? Let's wait and hear what the slepson has to say about this "painless" ring and the skin simply "drops off".

_{It is called a Shang Ring, invented by a Chinese guy.}

_{They are very popular in poorer countries where too many kids were getting crook from backyard circumcisions.}

_{Religious ceremonial circumcision is not generally carried out by a trained person but rather an Imam or other religious leader so these rings have become an important tool.}

_{Anyway, just a little info.}

_{As the general concensus goes, each to their own and leave it at that.}

You've missed the point here Tuky.

Its all about the right to have a choice. I can't see a ten year old willingly choosing that!

You've missed the point here Tuky.

Its all about the right to have a choice. I can't see a ten year old willingly choosing that!

If he's had an education in a madrasseh or other Islamic institution, then he will probably be eagerly looking forward to the snip. Make him like his father, his uncles, his teachers and so on.

If it is solely for medical reasons then, no, he would probably be reluctant. But he would be more in need of it!

Yes Humphrey...as I keep reiterating a child wouldn't agree of his own free will.

I include religious indoctrination in the same bracket as any parental coercion.