The 15-year prison sentence given to a woman and her seven children by an Egyptian court for converting to Christianity is a sign of things to come, according to alarmed human rights advocates who say the nation's Islamist government is bad news for Christians in the North African country.

A criminal court  in the central Egyptian city of Beni Suef  meted out the shocking sentence last week, according to the Arabic-language Egyptian paper Al-Masry Al-Youm. Nadia Mohamed Ali, who was raised a Christian, converted to Islam when she married Mohamed Abdel-Wahhab Mustafa, a Muslim, 23 years ago. He later died, and his widow planned to convert her family back to Christianity in order to obtain an inheritance from her family. She sought the help of others in the registration office to process new identity cards between 2004 and 2006. When the conversion came to light under the new regime, Nadia, her children and even the clerks who processed the identity cards were all sentenced to prison.

Samuel Tadros, a research fellow at Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, said conversions like Nadia's have been common in the past, but said Egypt's new Sharia-based constitution "is a real disaster in terms of religion freedom.”

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/16/egyptian-court-sentences-entire-family-to-15-years-for-converting-to/

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pogrom

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Any return to pre-Islamic times would indeed be a massive leap forward for Egypt. The last time the lunatics took over there they knocked the nose of the Sphinx, but gave up on destroying all the valley of the Kings, the task being far too great for them. I do sense a change happening though - Yesterday the BBC ran an article citing U.S government condemnation of an anti-Semitic speech given by Morsi back in 2010. This came to light now, in 2013, we are lead to believe due to a translation of said speech made by Memri. What I do find significant is that for ages the stock response to Memri would have been to dismiss them as Islamophobes and attempt to bury the news. So what has changed? Well Egypt has for the worse with religious persecution taking a marked rise.

So who is surprised? Obama perhaps, who made a point of insisting the Muslim brotherhood be allowed to attend his 2009 Cairo speech. Or perhaps James Clapper, who characterized the Muslim brotherhood as 'largely secular'

Perhaps reality is beginning to dawn on the useful idiots who facilitated this Arab spring mess, although I suspect they knew all along but kept quiet to avoid the political fallout that would ensue.

P.S Surely something you can't leave without facing severe sanction, up to and including death, is more characteristic of a cult than a religion?

As she did it under the previous regime, when I assume there was no Sharia law, I cannot see the justice.

But under Sharia law she - and her children - should be punished by death. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim, according to the Koran.

So she should consider herself lucky.

As she did it under the previous regime, when I assume there was no Sharia law, I cannot see the justice.

But under Sharia law she - and her children - should be punished by death. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim, according to the Koran.

So she should consider herself lucky.

That's what I was thinking. These new guys in charge in Egypt seem to have a heart after all.

As she did it under the previous regime, when I assume there was no Sharia law, I cannot see the justice.

But under Sharia law she - and her children - should be punished by death. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim, according to the Koran.

So she should consider herself lucky.

That's what I was thinking. These new guys in charge in Egypt seem to have a heart after all.

Evidently they are being rewarded for their moderation with $1.6 billion of aid plus the sale of F16's and tanks to their army.

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

Since I can't prove it one way or the other, I prefer to believe it springs from the better side of Islam.

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

Yes, Islam is to a great extent a totalitarian religion. Throughout the Middle East it is necessary to have totalitarian regimes to control a virtually uncontrollable population. This area is the last of the nomadic areas of the world (apart from Lapland) and the movement of the tribal groups within their areas required a strong man with a good memory to lead the family groups. Democracy is not an option when one is heading for the next grazing ground with the only water source within three days travel.

If only the peoples of the settled, city-based world would stop and think for a moment ..

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

Yes, Islam is to a great extent a totalitarian religion. Throughout the Middle East it is necessary to have totalitarian regimes to control a virtually uncontrollable population. This area is the last of the nomadic areas of the world (apart from Lapland) and the movement of the tribal groups within their areas required a strong man with a good memory to lead the family groups. Democracy is not an option when one is heading for the next grazing ground with the only water source within three days travel.

If only the peoples of the settled, city-based world would stop and think for a moment ..

Yes, I agree, much of Islam needs a totalitarian regime. Effectively they are in the Middle Ages (sharia law).... when the West had a dual totalitarian system, absolute monarchies and the Catholic Church. The monarchies have become pseudo-democracies, while the Catholic Church is moving towards the modern era, but too slowly for its own good. One can only hope that Islam will modernise before it destroys everyone else (which seems to be the intention of its more fanatical followers).

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

i have strong doubts that this poll has any meaning and i'd bet my [not so] sweet butt that the majority of educated Muslims consider that a number of parts (not all) of Sharia Law are archaic and anachronistic remnants.

It's got a familiar ring to it:

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/pogrom

Not yet a pogrom, but it may come to that.

Since the fall of Mubarrak, Egypt has been back-pedalling into the Middle Ages so fast that it may overshoot and find itself in a pre-Islamic age. (Well, it was a thought!) I wonder what the decent Muslims whom we all know think about it.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

i have strong doubts that this poll has any meaning and i'd bet my [not so] sweet butt that the majority of educated Muslims consider that a number of parts (not all) of Sharia Law are archaic and anachronistic remnants.

I think I agree with both of you. which begs the question, "what percentage of the Muslim world would one consider educated"?

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

i have strong doubts that this poll has any meaning and i'd bet my [not so] sweet butt that the majority of educated Muslims consider that a number of parts (not all) of Sharia Law are archaic and anachronistic remnants.

I should clarify. Checking my source again, I see that

"In only a few [Muslim] countries did a majority say that Sharia should have no role in society; yet in most countries, only a minority want Sharia as 'the only source' of law. In Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh, majorities want Sharia as the 'only source' of legislation."

Apologies for the looseness of my original statement.

In Egypt, which has recently voted for a Sharia-based constitution, 70% of men polled by Gallup and 62% of women said they wanted Sharia as the only source of legislation. So, in Egypt, they now have what they said they wanted, and liberal Muslims, Copts, etc. will just have to suck it up or leave.

My source is Esposito, J. and Mogahed, D. Who Speaks for Islam? Gallup Press, 2007. The data were gathered in 2005-2007. The methodology and process are explained in Appendices A and B of the book.

Islam, though not lacking in some virtues (strong families, sober communities, etc), is at heart a totalitarian religion. The clear majority of people in the Muslim world surveyed by Gallop in the early 2000s preferred a Sharia-based Constitution. They believed Sharia supports families, morality and social stability.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

i have strong doubts that this poll has any meaning and i'd bet my [not so] sweet butt that the majority of educated Muslims consider that a number of parts (not all) of Sharia Law are archaic and anachronistic remnants.

I think I agree with both of you. which begs the question, "what percentage of the Muslim world would one consider educated"?

It all depends which part of the Muslim world you are talking about, and what you would consider educated. In other words, your question is unanswerable. Democracy, of course, gives equal weight to the views of the illiterate, or near illiterate, peasant, and the University professor.

I think I agree with both of you. which begs the question, "what percentage of the Muslim world would one consider educated"?

A further question would be "What is considered as "education" in the Muslim world? It's certainly not the liberal or critical-analytical kind of education that post-Enlightenment states value (or claim to). The extreme paucity of published works, peer-reviewed scholarly journal articles, etc. produced in the Muslim world is striking. Other than memorization of the Qur'an, study of the Hadiths and the legal arguments of the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, education, as far as I can see, is largely technical and functional. There has been no unfettered study of Philosophy, for example, since the 12th century.

i have strong doubts that this poll has any meaning and i'd bet my [not so] sweet butt that the majority of educated Muslims consider that a number of parts (not all) of Sharia Law are archaic and anachronistic remnants.

I think I agree with both of you. which begs the question, "what percentage of the Muslim world would one consider educated"?

a relevant question which begs another question "what percentage of the Muslim world is uneducated, has no access to "offshore" information and is continously brainwashed?"

p.s. i retract my comment "...strong doubts that this poll has any meaning". the second part still stands (based on nearly four decades of intensive contacts with Muslims of various countries).

a relevant question which begs another question "what percentage of the Muslim world is uneducated, has no access to "offshore" information and is continously brainwashed?"

A good question. I wonder how free access to the global internet is in Muslim lands, and how much that influences people's thinking away from the straitjacket of conservative Islamic legalism.

Certainly there are Muslim intellectuals who in their writing critique the conservative interpretations one hears from leading clergy in the Muslim world. These scholars are based in the West though. If they were to voice the same views in e.g. the Arab countries, I think they would risking their liberty and livelihoods, if not their lives.

Some liberal Muslim critics have been (and still are?) based in Syria. It will be interesting to see how the Liberals and Salafists in the current Syrian opposition resolve their fundamental differences after Bashar al-Assad goes (if he does).

A frequently seen screen-shot from the most technically-advanced and Western-friendly organisation in Saudi Arabia.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

In spite of, no question about it. Decent morals are inate.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

In spite of, no question about it. Decent morals are inate.

No morals are innate. They derive from the society you live in, often, but not necessarily, from that society's religious beliefs. But not everybody in a given group absorbs them in the same way or to the same extent.

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

In spite of, no question about it. Decent morals are inate.

No morals are innate. They derive from the society you live in, often, but not necessarily, from that society's religious beliefs. But not everybody in a given group absorbs them in the same way or to the same extent.

Where do so called 'jungle children' get their human like morals from?

We all know Muslim people who are very decent, but are they decent because of or in spite of Islam, or does their decency spring from the better side of Islam?

In spite of, no question about it. Decent morals are inate.

No morals are innate. They derive from the society you live in, often, but not necessarily, from that society's religious beliefs. But not everybody in a given group absorbs them in the same way or to the same extent.

Absolutely! I think this fact is well understood by those who would rule over us. If you write the laws and control the press you can change people's behaviour, and in time beliefs. Note that Sharia censorship does not just apply to Islamic Countries. Salman Rushdie recently observed that had the Satanic verses been written today it would never have been published.