Churches are often beautiful or interesting buildings both in the present and when one considers their history and purposes. Sensible atheists would certainly appreciate these qualities. Better than the local pub, eh?

I dunno. Depends what beer the pub serves.

Pubs are often beautiful or interesting buildings both in the present and when one considers their history and purposes. Sensible atheists would certainly appreciate these qualities. Better than the local church, eh?

The Belgian Trappists managed to combine both in a manner of speaking, from personal experience I can understand why they didn't speak, they probably couldn't.

We also have a church that's in the process of being turned into a restaurant. My town isn't a God-fearing town apparently.

In New York, New York (the city they named twice), I was at a discotheque named Limelight many moons ago. It was a former Catholic church, and the property was sold on the open market, so the disco marketers bought it. Fair enough, but it did result in protests from Catholics...

I don't know whether the new owners were "God-fearing" (what kind of malicious god would expect their followers to fear them, and why would they follow?), but I had a lot of fun at the venue then.

There is a Club/bar in England made entirely from reclaimed bits of catholic churches.

"Reclaimed bits of Catholic churches". Interesting line of thought.

We also have a church that's in the process of being turned into a restaurant. My town isn't a God-fearing town apparently.

In New York, New York (the city they named twice), I was at a discotheque named Limelight many moons ago. It was a former Catholic church, and the property was sold on the open market, so the disco marketers bought it. Fair enough, but it did result in protests from Catholics...

I don't know whether the new owners were "God-fearing" (what kind of malicious god would expect their followers to fear them, and why would they follow?), but I had a lot of fun at the venue then.

There is a Club/bar in England made entirely from reclaimed bits of catholic churches.

"Reclaimed bits of Catholic churches". Interesting line of thought.

I thought the Church of England had all those!

"Reclaimed bits of Catholic churches". Interesting line of thought.

I thought the Church of England had all those!

When Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries he did not bring the buildings and land into the Church of England (which was only just being created), but seized the best bits for himself and distributed the rest among those who could do him the most good.

RC churches were not included in this, except those attached to abbeys and monasteries. Edward did little, Mary went back to Catholicism and then Elizabeth swung the pendulum the other way.

Then you have James I/VI and Charles I - who tested the two extremes again. Meanwhile a strongly Puritan streak was emerging in England and threw up Oliver Cromwell, the predecessor to John Major as MP for Huntingdon. The Civil War was the event that closed down most Catholic churches and these people were certainly not in favour of the established CoE, which was to the Puritans just another facet of the Whore of Babylon (Pope / RC Church). So RC churches were basically razed to the ground, with no property values passed to anyone other than the local villagers on a 'squatters' rights' basis.

"Reclaimed bits of Catholic churches". Interesting line of thought.

I thought the Church of England had all those!

When Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries he did not bring the buildings and land into the Church of England (which was only just being created), but seized the best bits for himself and distributed the rest among those who could do him the most good.

RC churches were not included in this, except those attached to abbeys and monasteries. Edward did little, Mary went back to Catholicism and then Elizabeth swung the pendulum the other way.

Then you have James I/VI and Charles I - who tested the two extremes again. Meanwhile a strongly Puritan streak was emerging in England and threw up Oliver Cromwell, the predecessor to John Major as MP for Huntingdon. The Civil War was the event that closed down most Catholic churches and these people were certainly not in favour of the established CoE, which was to the Puritans just another facet of the Whore of Babylon (Pope / RC Church). So RC churches were basically razed to the ground, with no property values passed to anyone other than the local villagers on a 'squatters' rights' basis.

I don't think that's true, HB. At the Reformation, the monastic churches were mainly destroyed, but the parish churches all over England changed almost seamlessly from Catholic to C of E. All over England you can see them still... Great St Mary's and King's College Chapel ( built by Wolsey, wasn't it?)notably where you are.

What the Puritans did was to destroy anything artistic in the churches.... statues, monumental brasses, stained glass windows. They didn't destroy the churches; they used them themselves. When Charles II was restored in 1660, the churches reverted to the Church of England, with whom they remain now. I have no doubt that many of the clergy under Charles I tried hard to retain their livings over the Commonwealth, and blossomed out in albs and chasubles and all the rest of it when Charles II was restored. But maybe that is slanderous!

I don't think that's true, HB. At the Reformation, the monastic churches were mainly destroyed, but the parish churches all over England changed almost seamlessly from Catholic to C of E. All over England you can see them still... Great St Mary's and King's College Chapel ( built by Wolsey, wasn't it?)notably where you are.

What the Puritans did was to destroy anything artistic in the churches.... statues, monumental brasses, stained glass windows. They didn't destroy the churches; they used them themselves. When Charles II was restored in 1660, the churches reverted to the Church of England, with whom they remain now. I have no doubt that many of the clergy under Charles I tried hard to retain their livings over the Commonwealth, and blossomed out in albs and chasubles and all the rest of it when Charles II was restored. But maybe that is slanderous!

I didn't think it was "The Church of England" until Ollie had done his thing and ChasDeux was restored.

I thought with Harry and later Liz it was the Catholic Church with only the word 'Roman' deleted. But as my memory fades with age, I am open to correction.

(No, sbk, I'm not into those things)

I don't think that's true, HB. At the Reformation, the monastic churches were mainly destroyed, but the parish churches all over England changed almost seamlessly from Catholic to C of E. All over England you can see them still... Great St Mary's and King's College Chapel ( built by Wolsey, wasn't it?)notably where you are.

What the Puritans did was to destroy anything artistic in the churches.... statues, monumental brasses, stained glass windows. They didn't destroy the churches; they used them themselves. When Charles II was restored in 1660, the churches reverted to the Church of England, with whom they remain now. I have no doubt that many of the clergy under Charles I tried hard to retain their livings over the Commonwealth, and blossomed out in albs and chasubles and all the rest of it when Charles II was restored. But maybe that is slanderous!

I didn't think it was "The Church of England" until Ollie had done his thing and ChasDeux was restored.

I thought with Harry and later Liz it was the Catholic Church with only the word 'Roman' deleted. But as my memory fades with age, I am open to correction.

(No, sbk, I'm not into those things)

According to Wiki, the term Roman Catholic doesn't appear in English until the beginning of the 17th Century.

But the terminology is not so important. I used the terms most easily comprehensible to anybody who's still reading this thread.

Presumably atheist churches don't have anyone called Torquemada as part of their organisation?

Presumably atheist churches don't have anyone called Torquemada as part of their organisation?

You mean to write those fiendish crosswords? (I'm not sure whether he preceded or succeeded Ximenes)

Torquenada -> Ximenes -> Azed

Torquenada -> Ximenes -> Azed

Sorry - should be 'Torquemada', never Torque(nada)

Torquenada -> Ximenes -> Azed

Sorry - should be 'Torquemada', never Torque(nada)

Thanks, HB.

Torquenada -> Ximenes -> Azed

Sorry - should be 'Torquemada', never Torque(nada)

Thanks, HB.

This link may interest you

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crosswords