Bring Out Truth About Tak Bai: Rights Advocate

[Buchholz]

For perspective on the Thaksin had no control over the Army and only the Army is responsible malarkey

Two years before Tak Bai:

September 29, 2002

MILITARY RESHUFFLE: Jobs for the boys

PM's cousins, former classmates get posts in Tuesday's rotation.

The annual military reshuffle, which takes effect on Tuesday, will see the promotion of many of the prime minister's pre-cadet school former classmates and two of his cousins. According to the rotation list announced yesterday and which involves 504 generals, two of Thaksin Shinawatra's cousins - General Chaiyasith Shinawatra and General Uthai Shinawatra - are to be appointed Assistant Army Commander-in-Chief and Deputy Permanent Secretary for Defence, respectively.

Of Thaksin's former classmates, Maj-General Jirasit Kesakomol is to lead the elite 1st Army Division and Colonel Anupong Paochinda is promoted to the rank of Major-General as Commander of the 2nd Infantry Division in charge of the Thai-Cambodian border.

Key appointments in the Defence Ministry are General Chalermpol Charoenying as military Inspector-General and Admiral Kraithep Pamornbutr as Deputy Permanent Secretary. Kraithep was earlier tipped to become the Assistant Navy Commander-in-Chief on lobbying by Thaksin's sister, Thai Rak Thai MP Yaowapha Wongsawat. In a last minute change, Air Chief Marshal Amarit Jarayaphan has been appointed Deputy Permanent Secretary for Defence rather than Deputy Air Force Commander-in-Chief. Lt-General Boonsang Niempradit, former Commander of United Nations troops in East Timor, will head the Defence Ministry's Policy and Planning Office. Maj-General Chaisak Somakul, a son-in-law of Defence Minister General Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, will be an adviser to the military's space programme. University Affairs Minister Suwat Liptapanlop's wife Colonel Poonpirom Liptapanlop is promoted to Major-General as a specialist attached to the Defence Ministry. In the Supreme Command, General Suraphol Chinajit becomes chief of the joint staff after missing out on a promotion last year. Appointed as his two deputies are General Poonsak Nakpat and Vice-Admiral Akanit Muensri. Admiral Chai Suwannapap is to become the deputy supreme commander and General Suraphan Phumkaew is appointed adviser to the National Defence Studies Institute. Lt-General Kemarat Kanchanawat will be the new director of joint operations.

In the Army command, General Wattanachai Chaimuenwong is to assume the post of Deputy Commander-in-Chief. General Weerachai Iamsa-ard, a cadet classmate of incoming Commander-in-Chief General Somdhat Attanand, is to be appointed chief of staff. General Pongthep Thesprateep is to be the chief executive staff officer for the Army commander-in-chief. Lt-General Lertrat Rattanawanit and Lt-General Thakerng Niratisai will be Pongthep's two deputies. General Wichit Yathip, a close aide to Chavalit, is promoted to Army chief adviser. Lt-General Sirichai Thanyasiri is to be promoted to a full general as the assistant Army commander-in-chief. Lt-General Pornchai Dechatiwong na Ayutthaya is slated to become special adviser. Maj-General Banthoon Tipyanont will lead the 1st Special Warfare Division and Lt-General Prawit Wongsuwan is to head the 1st Army Region. Maj-General Paisan Rakatanyu will be Prawit's deputy. In the Navy, Admiral Suthas Kayim is appointed to the post of deputy commander-in-chief. Admiral Bannawit Kengrien will be Navy chief adviser and Vice-Admiral Chumphol Pajusanont is to become the chief of staff. Vice-Admiral Paisan Amrapan is to be the assistant commander-in-chief. In the Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Chalerm Chumchuensuk is to be appointed deputy commander-in-chief, and Air Chief Marshal Anuphan Sanidwongse na Ayutthaya will be assistant commander-in-chief. Air Chief Marshal Raden Puengpak is to lead the Air Combat Command.

http://www.nationmul...boys-66566.html

====================================

A year after that...the Assistant Army Commander-in-Chief Cousin Chaiyasit was further promoted:

Thaksin appointed his cousin, General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to the post of Army Commander-in-Chief in 2003.

Chaiyasit, PM’s power base more solid than ever - 2003-08-31

,

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

To save time I have concentrated on the one point in your post that needs a response.

There is obviously a chain of command involving the Prime Minister and the armed forces even though the armed forces often act independently in Thailand, often in a criminal fashion when overthrowing elected governments.Sometimes the chain of command works.For example, few serious observers doubt in 2010 Abhisit/Suthep were at very least consulted in terms of the military action in Bangkok.As to Tak Bai, Thaksin was certainly responsible for the policy environment in the South but apart from a few nuts nobody suggests Thaksin was personally involved in the Tak Bai massacre.I didn't mention the police involvement at Tak Bai but have no intent to avoid the subject.The security forces were invoved in this terrible tragedy asnd presumably even you, never known to criticise the many crimes of the Thai army, would suggest the military did not take the leading role.I have provided you with the example of My Lai to help you understand - but perhaps you believe Nixon was personally responsible for that massacre.

[Suffinator]

Bring out the truth? The Truth for a Thai, especially one in authority is a puzzle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. The truth is out there but the average Thai will never see its light of day.

[473geo]

Bring out the truth? The Truth for a Thai, especially one in authority is a puzzle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. The truth is out there but the average Thai will never see its light of day.

The events of Yesterday and yester year cannot be altered.........concentrate on today..........tomorrow who knows

[Buchholz]

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

To save time I have concentrated on the one point in your post that needs a response.

There is obviously a chain of command involving the Prime Minister and the armed forces

Thaksin was certainly responsible for the policy environment in the South

Removing the off-topic hubris and personal attacks leaves us with the fact that Thaksin's personal culpability, for what his chosen generals that he was boss over did at the time of the Tak Bai incident in carrying out his policies and his lack of holding them accountable afterwards, remains intact.

.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

To save time I have concentrated on the one point in your post that needs a response.

There is obviously a chain of command involving the Prime Minister and the armed forces

Thaksin was certainly responsible for the policy environment in the South

Removing the off-topic hubris and personal attacks leaves us with the fact that Thaksin's personal culpability, for what his chosen generals that he was boss over did at the time of the Tak Bai incident in carrying out his policies and his lack of holding them accountable afterwards, remains intact.

.

We know Thaksin's reaction was appalling.I'm not arguing any different.But he was not personally involved in the Tak Bai deaths.This was the action of the Thai army.At some level even you must want to be honest about this.

[473geo]

Any deaths are unacceptable in protest situations, removing from the equation the unfortunate accidental deaths due to suffocation, undoubtedly caused by mismanagement at the scene ......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

Edited February 19, 2013 by 473geo

[Buchholz]

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

To save time I have concentrated on the one point in your post that needs a response.

There is obviously a chain of command involving the Prime Minister and the armed forces

Thaksin was certainly responsible for the policy environment in the South

Removing the off-topic hubris and personal attacks leaves us with the fact that Thaksin's personal culpability, for what his chosen generals that he was boss over did at the time of the Tak Bai incident in carrying out his policies and his lack of holding them accountable afterwards, remains intact.

We know Thaksin's reaction was appalling.I'm not arguing any different.But he was not personally involved in the Tak Bai deaths.This was the action of the Thai army.At some level even you must want to be honest about this.

His actions before the incident were appalling and led to his personal policies that the generals, that he personally appointed, followed.

Did he personally load and stack the restrained youth on trucks like cord wood? No.

Is he therefore exonerated of any and all culpability? No.

That's honesty.

,

[Buchholz]

......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

None according to the police who said they were shooting into the air.

.

[dcutman]

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

To save time I have concentrated on the one point in your post that needs a response.

There is obviously a chain of command involving the Prime Minister and the armed forces even though the armed forces often act independently in Thailand, often in a criminal fashion when overthrowing elected governments.Sometimes the chain of command works.For example, few serious observers doubt in 2010 Abhisit/Suthep were at very least consulted in terms of the military action in Bangkok.As to Tak Bai, Thaksin was certainly responsible for the policy environment in the South but apart from a few nuts nobody suggests Thaksin was personally involved in the Tak Bai massacre.I didn't mention the police involvement at Tak Bai but have no intent to avoid the subject.The security forces were invoved in this terrible tragedy asnd presumably even you, never known to criticise the many crimes of the Thai army, would suggest the military did not take the leading role.I have provided you with the example of My Lai to help you understand - but perhaps you believe Nixon was personally responsible for that massacre.

You are correct in saying he was not personally involved. However he most certainly was directly involved in it.

The new Fourth Army commander, Lieutenant-General Pisan, was also very

close to Thaksin, and unlikely to dissent from his preference for hard-line measures.

Pisan was a student of the Armed Forces Academy Preparatory School

(AFAPS) Class 9 (one year above Thaksin himself) and Chulachomklao Royal

Military Academy Class 20.21 With his knowledge of problems in the South, he

was assigned by the prime minister to assist General Chaisit Shinawatra, to oversee

the situation there, as well as coordinating with local religious leaders. His

determination to use violence to disperse the Tak Bai demonstrators and his

televised statement branding the crowd “rioters as well as the resulting

eighty-five deaths, showed that Lieutenant-General Pisan was prone to using

violence and inclined to respond favorably to the prime minister’s orders, not a

man who would argue with Thaksin or be inclined toward a policy of compromise.

Other security agencies were also acting upon the prime minister’s orders and were dominated by the hawkish faction. General Pallop Pinmanee had long believed the problems of the South were part of a terrorist movement. It was

General Pallop who ordered the attack on the machete-armed assailants taking

refuge inside the Kru-Ze mosque.

[Moruya]

I don't think they support drugs either: "We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims." though I am aware that the vices they refer to encompass a variety of "society corruptants" - take your pick.

How does this relate to the Tak Bai incident?

Are you attempting to make excuses on Thaksin's behalf?

[jayboy]

His actions before the incident were appalling and led to his personal policies that the generals, that he personally appointed, followed.

Did he personally load and stack the restrained youth on trucks like cord wood? No.

Is he therefore exonerated of any and all culpability? No.

That's honesty.

,

No that's a grudging concession.

Nobody was arguing Thaksin had no responsibility.Clearly he had as PM.

But the killers were from the Thai army which you have never criticised whether for this or any other of their many crimes.

[Pimay1]

Any deaths are unacceptable in protest situations, removing from the equation the unfortunate accidental deaths due to suffocation, undoubtedly caused by mismanagement at the scene ......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

Accidental deaths due to suffication??????? Stacked on top of each other like cord wood in an enclosed truck with their hands tied behind their back. Accidental deaths? I suppose if you catch a fish and throw it out on the bank for an hour and it dies that is also an accidental death. I really can't believe you said that my friend.

[473geo]

......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

None according to the police who said they were shooting into the air.

.

I guess the 5000+ deaths surrounding the conflict were all shooting into the air too......not excusing the7 deaths at Tak Bai, be it police or otherwise, just bringing a little balance to the thread........I am always amazed that the HRW is not much more vociferous in advocating the hunting down and bringing to justice the 'leaders' of the continuing insurgency and perprtrators of death Edited February 19, 2013 by 473geo

[Buchholz]

His actions before the incident were appalling and led to his personal policies that the generals, that he personally appointed, followed.

Did he personally load and stack the restrained youth on trucks like cord wood? No.

Is he therefore exonerated of any and all culpability? No.

That's honesty.

,

No that's a grudging concession.

Nobody was arguing Thaksin had no responsibility.Clearly he had as PM.

But the killers were from the Thai army

Who were classmates/relatives appointed by the PM and who were following the policies the PM had established for the South.

.

[473geo]

Any deaths are unacceptable in protest situations, removing from the equation the unfortunate accidental deaths due to suffocation, undoubtedly caused by mismanagement at the scene ......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

Accidental deaths due to suffication??????? Stacked on top of each other like cord wood in an enclosed truck with their hands tied behind their back. Accidental deaths? I suppose if you catch a fish and throw it out on the bank for an hour and it dies that is also an accidental death. I really can't believe you said that my friend.

You are of course welcome to your opinion.....accidental it was....stupid but accidental

[dcutman]

......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

None according to the police who said they were shooting into the air.

.

I guess the 5000+ deaths surrounding the conflict were all shooting into the air too......not excusing the7 deaths at Tak Bai, be it police or otherwise, just bringing a little balance to the thread........I am always amazed that the HRW is not much more vociferous in advocating the hunting down and bringing to justice the 'leaders' of the continuing insurgency and perprtrators of death

I am always amazed at the R.U.B. wanting to change the topic when it comes to their most beloved family Shinawatra

[dcutman]

Any deaths are unacceptable in protest situations, removing from the equation the unfortunate accidental deaths due to suffocation, undoubtedly caused by mismanagement at the scene ......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

Accidental deaths due to suffication??????? Stacked on top of each other like cord wood in an enclosed truck with their hands tied behind their back. Accidental deaths? I suppose if you catch a fish and throw it out on the bank for an hour and it dies that is also an accidental death. I really can't believe you said that my friend.

You are of course welcome to your opinion.....accidental it was....stupid but accidental

Stacking over 100 men face down in a truck gagged and hands bound, and driving them six hours in the blazing sun. Only you geo could see this as an unfortunate accident.

[473geo]

......how many other deaths occurred following use of force and firing live rounds,during the protest at Tak Bai?......7?

None according to the police who said they were shooting into the air.

.

I guess the 5000+ deaths surrounding the conflict were all shooting into the air too......not excusing the7 deaths at Tak Bai, be it police or otherwise, just bringing a little balance to the thread........I am always amazed that the HRW is not much more vociferous in advocating the hunting down and bringing to justice the 'leaders' of the continuing insurgency and perprtrators of death

I am always amazed at the R.U.B. wanting to change the topic when it comes to their most beloved family Shinawatra

For you the topic is about the family Shinawatra......when really this is the broader topic ......."Bring out truth about Tak Bai"

[jayboy]

His actions before the incident were appalling and led to his personal policies that the generals, that he personally appointed, followed.

Did he personally load and stack the restrained youth on trucks like cord wood? No.

Is he therefore exonerated of any and all culpability? No.

That's honesty.

,

No that's a grudging concession.

Nobody was arguing Thaksin had no responsibility.Clearly he had as PM.

But the killers were from the Thai army

Who were classmates/relatives appointed by the PM and who were following the policies the PM had established for the South.

.

Thaksin's influence on the appointment of some senior officers is not an explanation, just an unimpressive attempt on your part to exculpate the army.Many senior officers involved in the Tak Bai incident who had no connection with Thaksin.In any case your argument is irrelevant.The key point is that no punishment was accorded to any of the army criminals involved and Abhisit's government with no brief for Thaksin(to put it mildly) did nothing at all about it.The fact that Abhisit was arguably a puppet or even creation of the military is possibly relevant.The Asia Human Rights Commission from 2004 sums up the position well:

http://www.humanrights.asia/news/ahrc-news/AHRC-OL-060-2006

[muttley]

I don't think they support drugs either: "We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims." though I am aware that the vices they refer to encompass a variety of "society corruptants" - take your pick.

How does this relate to the Tak Bai incident?

Are you attempting to make excuses on Thaksin's behalf?

Are you trolling or just forgetful? Do you remember adding the war on drugs to the Tak Bai incident as a reason why there is an insurgency in the south and I asked you why?

You replied "because of deaths caused by armed forces" presumably during the "war on drugs".

I provided a manifesto from one of the insurgent groups pointing out that they wanted their "Pattani" back and would destroy anything Thai in order to do so and stated that it was a more logical reason for the insurgency than your war on drugs reason. I also tounge in cheek suggested as they wished to get rid of all vices, that they would probably have supported the "war on drugs"

And then you come up with the nonsense above. OK? If you need anything else explaining don't bother asking, I've wasted more than enough time on you than is necessary.

[Pimay1]

I don't think they support drugs either: "We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims." though I am aware that the vices they refer to encompass a variety of "society corruptants" - take your pick.

How does this relate to the Tak Bai incident?

Are you attempting to make excuses on Thaksin's behalf?

Are you trolling or just forgetful? Do you remember adding the war on drugs to the Tak Bai incident as a reason why there is an insurgency in the south and I asked you why?

You replied "because of deaths caused by armed forces" presumably during the "war on drugs".

I provided a manifesto from one of the insurgent groups pointing out that they wanted their "Pattani" back and would destroy anything Thai in order to do so and stated that it was a more logical reason for the insurgency than your war on drugs reason. I also tounge in cheek suggested as they wished to get rid of all vices, that they would probably have supported the "war on drugs"

And then you come up with the nonsense above. OK? If you need anything else explaining don't bother asking, I've wasted more than enough time on you than is necessary.

Muttley the writing style and content of your posts are exactly the same as another TVF member that stop posting some time ago. Are you a previous member and have re-joined under a new name?

[dcutman]

Well Geo the truth is out and has been for some time. There is only those few that fail to accept it and defend the actions of a psychopathic dictator, his family. and close supporters.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[muttley]

I don't think they support drugs either: "We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims." though I am aware that the vices they refer to encompass a variety of "society corruptants" - take your pick.

How does this relate to the Tak Bai incident?

Are you attempting to make excuses on Thaksin's behalf?

Are you trolling or just forgetful? Do you remember adding the war on drugs to the Tak Bai incident as a reason why there is an insurgency in the south and I asked you why?

You replied "because of deaths caused by armed forces" presumably during the "war on drugs".

I provided a manifesto from one of the insurgent groups pointing out that they wanted their "Pattani" back and would destroy anything Thai in order to do so and stated that it was a more logical reason for the insurgency than your war on drugs reason. I also tounge in cheek suggested as they wished to get rid of all vices, that they would probably have supported the "war on drugs"

And then you come up with the nonsense above. OK? If you need anything else explaining don't bother asking, I've wasted more than enough time on you than is necessary.

Muttley the writing style and content of your posts are exactly the same as another TVF member that stop posting some time ago. Are you a previous member and have re-joined under a new name?

Join the queue, so far I've been accused of being two other previous posters, perhaps I should hold a lottery? In the meantime if you have something to say to counter what I've written rather than its style or lack thereof, please do so.

[Pimay1]

Sorry quotes got me again.

Muttley the writing style and content of your posts are exactly the same as another TVF member that stop posting some time ago. Are you a previous member and have re-joined under a new name?

Join the queue, so far I've been accused of being two other previous posters, perhaps I should hold a lottery? In the meantime if you have something to say to counter what I've written rather than its style or lack thereof, please do so.

No offence meant. I just asked you a simple question. Are you a former member or not. Very simple yes or no question. I would certainly answer it if I was asked. I have nothing to hide.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Pimay1

[muttley]

Sorry quotes got me again.

Muttley the writing style and content of your posts are exactly the same as another TVF member that stop posting some time ago. Are you a previous member and have re-joined under a new name?

Join the queue, so far I've been accused of being two other previous posters, perhaps I should hold a lottery? In the meantime if you have something to say to counter what I've written rather than its style or lack thereof, please do so.

No offence meant. I just asked you a simple question. Are you a former member or not. Very simple yes or no question. I would certainly answer it if I was asked. I have nothing to hide.

Nor have I

[Pimay1]

Sorry quotes got me again.

Muttley the writing style and content of your posts are exactly the same as another TVF member that stop posting some time ago. Are you a previous member and have re-joined under a new name?

Join the queue, so far I've been accused of being two other previous posters, perhaps I should hold a lottery? In the meantime if you have something to say to counter what I've written rather than its style or lack thereof, please do so.

No offence meant. I just asked you a simple question. Are you a former member or not. Very simple yes or no question. I would certainly answer it if I was asked. I have nothing to hide.

Nor have I

Ok so silence implies consent. Welcome back to TVF.

[Arkady]

This cannot be done because the impunity of the military and politicians to carry out attrocities against Southern muslims must be protected at all costs. This is systemic and involves a large number of officials and politicians. It is not restricted to a few isolated incidents like Tak Bai and has been going on for a long time. To open the Pandora's box is unthinkable and put senior military, police and politicians in jail is not going to happen. If anyone ever had the guts to try, the army would not stand for it. Just look at how the DSI has skirted round investigating the deaths of red shirt protesters in Wat Pathum because the trail led back to senior military figures. Here we are not talking about red shirted government supporters as victims. We are talking about muslim kaeks who are in open insurrection against the state and refuse to accept the constitutional inviolability of the Kingdom's borders.

[simple1]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Thaksin has ordered the security forces to launch a new offensive in the southern provinces, ostensibly to crack down on illegal firearms. On November 6, after announcing the cancellation of his trip to Chile for the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum meeting, Thaksin declared in a radio address: “Anyone who illegally possesses a war weapon will face the death sentence, but innocent people do not have to panic.” Before visiting Tak Bai the next day, he told journalists he was going to the area to instruct the police and army to act more aggressively against separatist militants.

Thaksin has brought the military and security forces back into the centre of political life, both through a “war on drugs” and the crackdown in the south. The Tak Bai incident is just one in a long line of acts of state violence since Thaksin took office. In 2003, over 2,500 alleged drug dealers were killed in extra-judicial executions when Thaksin launched the security forces on a wave of terror in Bangkok and other cities. Following the declaration of martial law in three southern provinces, as many as 112 Muslim youth, armed with little more than knives and stones, were slaughtered at the historic Krue Sae mosque and other locations in April.

http://www.wsws.org/...1/thai-n26.html

Thanks for that link from the World Socialist rag which takes the view that Thailand is a battleground for competing feudal elites but in due course the working clas will raise up in a cleansing revolution to sweep the ancient regime away etc etc

Meanwhile back in the real world....

Did you read the source article? it was well written and cross referenced sources from many respected news organisations such as Time, Intl Herald Tribune & Singapore Times; I would not define them as socialist rags. Your dismissive response is far from being reasonable.