Ecuador 'analysing' Snowden asylum request: FM

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. This topic is not about partisan politics.

[jamhar]

The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President's Plane Is Falling Apart

It seems there's more (or in this case, "less") to the story than first reported.

Very STRANGE behavior indeed

The countries involved contradict the Bolivian Presidents claims of re-routing

tale-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart Link

Reports on the BBC say that France apologised to Bolivia last night for refusing to allow President Morales' into it's airspace.

Saw that too. Actually I'm surprised that the French didn't just surrender!

.....

.....

OK that was a cheap shot, but it felt SO GOOD!

[mania]

There is a good chance those governments just did not want to get in the middle of any of this. I would not blame them & unlike others do not think everyone has a duty to Snowden or the US for that matter.

These countries have their own people & country to run & probably would like nothing better to remain neutral in this whole affair.

Getting back to the actual incident...Yes it is plausible the planes pilot did in fact claim a possible malfunction as a reason to land

or made it a point to say it so they could in fact land fearing their detour had in fact put them below the 25% or what ever it was rule of remaining fuel for any flight. They do so as a backup in case of weather detours etc.

BUT....If I think about it I have to ask myself why would the Bolivian President be initially angered when landing?

If in fact the landing was forced due to malfunction would the Bolivian Air Force Pilots not immediately inform the President, their

President, they had a possible equipment malfunction so are rerouting & landing? Or would he only hear about it later??

No...it just does not play out quite as smooth as they all would now like to claim.

[mania]

brilliant article here

www.gekkosblog.com/

I agree Thanks it was well worth the time to read.

Edited July 4, 2013 by mania

[jamhar]

One mans brilliant is anothers 2 watt bulb. But to each his own.

[SinglePot]

"Actions speak louder than words, and by his actions alone Edward Snowden has proved himself to be a real American Hero, a Patriot and somebody worthy of being called a Citizen of the World. The sheer amount of personal risk he took was by no means trivial, and the reason he took it for makes it even more significant."

To have remained in the US and then declare himself as the source of the newspaper reports would presumably have been reckless more than brave.

The need to flee before declaring can of course be taken as a criticism of US justice and democracy.

What would have happened to him if he had stayed? What will happen to him if he returns?

A real US Patriot would go back. Today July 4. God Bless America.

[lannarebirth]

It takes about an hour, but I thought this was a great video.

[Publicus]

Based on Pres Morales own statements that he would cheerfully aid and abet a fugitive from justice, made before and while he was in Moscow. He'd been in Moscow as recently as yesterday

So an international warrant has in fact finally been issued on Snowden?

I must have missed that.

I will put you down as acceptable then

While it is difficult to travel without a passport, it is not impossible. Fugitives like Snowden could be “paroled” by a foreign government, which means that they are considered not to be officially in that country, even if they are technically on their soil. Or Snowden could be issued travel documents by a supportive government.

Former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes, who served on the Interpol executive committee from 2006 to 2009, said foreign governments can do what they want with Snowden because he hasn't a passport and he hasn't any special travel documents. Right now it appears Snowden is a prisoner in Russia, at the Moscow airport transit terminal.

The U.S. government did not request an Interpol “red notice” for Snowden, which would have set off airport alerts and potentially hindered his travel. White House press spokesman Jay Carney has said a red notice was not necessary in Snowden’s case.

On matters of an Interpol red notice, it is most valuable when the whereabouts of a fugitive are unknown, Carney has said. The US knew Snowden was in Hong Kong so Washington sought his arrest there pending extradition..

Fuentes said the United States would have had a difficult time getting a red notice for Snowden, and that extradition requests in certain countries would run into similar problems.

Getting an Interpol red notice would also be next to impossible unless there are criminal charges in addition to violating the Espionage Act. Fuentes emphasized that Interpol is going to have the same problem that the Chinese had, and that is, the US filed charges that aren’t charges in almost any other country.

That is, the serious charges in the U.S. are the secrets Snowden stole (and revealed). Stealing PRChinese state secrets is a crime in the PRChina. Stealing U.S. state secrets is a crime in the U.S. But Snowden stealing U.S. state secrets is not a crime in the PRChina, to include Hong Kong. In contrast, murder is a crime in both the PRC and in the U.S - so is corruption, among other more common charges. So in an instance of a common charge, an Interpol red notice can be sought, especially if the whereabouts of the accused are unknown.

The U.S. knows and understands where Snowden is, so the U.S. is discussing it with the Russian government. No Interpol red card is necessary when the government knows the whereabouts of Snowden whether it is Hong Kong or Moscow, or where ever.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Publicus

[Exsexyman]

Based on Pres Morales own statements that he would cheerfully aid and abet a fugitive from justice, made before and while he was in Moscow. He'd been in Moscow as recently as yesterday

So an international warrant has in fact finally been issued on Snowden?

I must have missed that.

I will put you down as acceptable then

It's common knowledge that Snowden has had charges filed against him by the U.S. Government in U.S. District Court for violations of the Espionage Act, and that Snowden is a fugitive from justice in the United States..

The prez of Bolivia has been talking about giving Snowden asylum, so he's well aware. That's knowledge enough.

Also, the right wingers are presuming the United States forced the sovereign states involved to accept its supposed will to deny Morales' plane access to the sovereign airspace of each of the countries. Such claims need some solid item of evidence. Moreover, such claims need a body of evidence that would result in conclusive proof. Speculation and assigning sinister motives out of the blue to the U.S. government doesn't cut it. Maybe there's something to come out, maybe not.

This wild speculation has to stop. Something concrete is needed, some specific .Presently, all that exists is extremist speculation.

It is not just wild speculation by 'right wingers', why bring partisan politics into it? That is off topic! Many insinuations on here that Bolivia was not telling the truth about the Presidential plane being denied permission to enter some European air space, that somehow they were being dishonest. Then France apologised to Bolivia for doing just that. Now we have US State department spokeswoman, Jan Psaki, saying that she wouldn't comment on the Morales flight, but 'conceded', that it discussed the issue of flights by Snowden with other nations. "We have been in contact with a range of countries that had a chance of Snowden land or travel through their country, but i am not going to outline what those countries were", said Psaki. It's not too hard to join the dots!

This incident clearly illustrates the institutional racism and colonialist mindset that still exists in the USA and Europe towards South America, which is at long last attempting to free itself from this burden. It is very telling that the BBC failed to even cover the story on TV in the UK which would have been unthinkable if the plane of the French, Spanish, any European leader, or, heaven forbid, Air force 1 had been subjected to similar treatment.

[mania]

It takes about an hour, but I thought this was a great video.

Very very good Thanks !

[jamhar]

An hour!!?? <deleted>?!! I dont even want sex for an hour!!!!

Man, I need a drink after admitting THAT!

[jamhar]

Why does this feel like secondary school?

[JDGRUEN]

Ponder this ... (Unless someone can cite a reference where Snowden was physically seen in the Moscow airport since the Bolivian Plane left Russia)...

Then maybe Snowden did leave in the Bolivian Presidents Aircraft.

I have a tough time imagining that a modern aircraft built out custom for the Bolivian President does not have a secret concealed compartment - even a bullet proof - explosive resistant one - for contingency purposes to protect the President.

So - if that aircraft was actually inspected when it landed in Austria... was the inspection more than a walk-through? Sure - the Austrian authorities did a full inspection - looking in all the baggage areas, in the restrooms, checking for secret compartments... Yeah Right ... did they cuff the President first and bring on the sniffer dogs?... /sarcasm off...

Snowden may be in Bolivia ... got there on a cushy flight ... rubbing elbows with the President...

Does anyone have concrete proof that Snowden is still in the airport in Moscow?

[Publicus]

Based on Pres Morales own statements that he would cheerfully aid and abet a fugitive from justice, made before and while he was in Moscow. He'd been in Moscow as recently as yesterday

So an international warrant has in fact finally been issued on Snowden?

I must have missed that.

I will put you down as acceptable then

It's common knowledge that Snowden has had charges filed against him by the U.S. Government in U.S. District Court for violations of the Espionage Act, and that Snowden is a fugitive from justice in the United States..

The prez of Bolivia has been talking about giving Snowden asylum, so he's well aware. That's knowledge enough.

Also, the right wingers are presuming the United States forced the sovereign states involved to accept its supposed will to deny Morales' plane access to the sovereign airspace of each of the countries. Such claims need some solid item of evidence. Moreover, such claims need a body of evidence that would result in conclusive proof. Speculation and assigning sinister motives out of the blue to the U.S. government doesn't cut it. Maybe there's something to come out, maybe not.

This wild speculation has to stop. Something concrete is needed, some specific .Presently, all that exists is extremist speculation.

It is not just wild speculation by 'right wingers', why bring partisan politics into it? That is off topic! Many insinuations on here that Bolivia was not telling the truth about the Presidential plane being denied permission to enter some European air space, that somehow they were being dishonest. Then France apologised to Bolivia for doing just that. Now we have US State department spokeswoman, Jan Psaki, saying that she wouldn't comment on the Morales flight, but 'conceded', that it discussed the issue of flights by Snowden with other nations. "We have been in contact with a range of countries that had a chance of Snowden land or travel through their country, but i am not going to outline what those countries were", said Psaki. It's not too hard to join the dots!

This incident clearly illustrates the institutional racism and colonialist mindset that still exists in the USA and Europe towards South America, which is at long last attempting to free itself from this burden. It is very telling that the BBC failed to even cover the story on TV in the UK which would have been unthinkable if the plane of the French, Spanish, any European leader, or, heaven forbid, Air force 1 had been subjected to similar treatment.

The crowd that enjoys its fantasies of so called equal treatment of Air Force One to that of the far leftist Morales' and his little junk jet speak of some parallel universe somewhere because it certainly doesn't reflect any reality in this world. The BBC is a major global news organization of long and respected standing which made a conscious news judgement call that Morales' junk jet and his dreamland presidency isn't worth the time or the effort to telecast.

The world sees, and it is off topic to mention it, there is serious question whether Brazil has the competence to organize the Olympic Games, which London did with aplomb and panache and awesome facility last year, no problem (the security matter affected nothing). Argentina defaulted on its debt by consciously and willfully refusing to pay it, continuing to suffer the consequences. The list goes on down there.

[Publicus]

Ponder this ... (Unless someone can cite a reference where Snowden was physically seen in the Moscow airport since the Bolivian Plane left Russia)...

Then maybe Snowden did leave in the Bolivian Presidents Aircraft.

I have a tough time imagining that a modern aircraft built out custom for the Bolivian President does not have a secret concealed compartment - even a bullet proof - explosive resistant one - for contingency purposes to protect the President.

So - if that aircraft was actually inspected when it landed in Austria... was the inspection more than a walk-through? Sure - the Austrian authorities did a full inspection - looking in all the baggage areas, in the restrooms, checking for secret compartments... Yeah Right ... did they cuff the President first and bring on the sniffer dogs?... /sarcasm off...

Snowden may be in Bolivia ... got there on a cushy flight ... rubbing elbows with the President...

Does anyone have concrete proof that Snowden is still in the airport in Moscow?

[Berkshire]

It takes about an hour, but I thought this was a great video.

I don't even have to watch that video to know what the guy said. In short, "Snowden good, US Gov bad."

Edited July 5, 2013 by Scott

[Berkshire]

One of the fringe benefits of being an infamous spy:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/sexy_spy_anna_chapman_to_nsa_leaker_269duh15dXoveRJt9SdKyJ

[Credo]

Why would he want to marry the spy, Chapman? He's not a spy, he's a whistleblower. Lest we forget.

Of course, it could help provide him with citizenship and a passport which he seems to need these days.

[mania]

It takes about an hour, but I thought this was a great video.

I don't even have to watch that video to know what the guy said. In short, "Snowden good, US Gov bad."

Actually it was interesting as it dealt a lot with the current state of mass media news &

restrictions on investigative journalism.

Similar to these but even better IMO

Edited July 5, 2013 by mania

[jamhar]

Why would he want to marry the spy, Chapman? He's not a spy, he's a whistleblower. Lest we forget.

Of course, it could help provide him with citizenship and a passport which he seems to need these days.

She is kinda hot

Hell, he went from "shoot them in the balls" to "i want to be one"

So why not?

His father called him a "Paul Revere"

I had a different officer from the same era in mind

[SinglePot]

Snowden and The ?????????

Up to you.

[Publicus]

Reuters reports that "U.S. authorities are already operating on a 'worst case' assumption that all of the classified material in Snowden's possession has made its way to one or more adversary intelligence services, U.S. national security sources said."

The worst aspect of Snowden having NSA classified documents and materials is that they reveal how NSA gets its information on terrorists and governments abroad that are hostile towards the U.S.

The Simple Reason Edward Snowden's Leaks Are So Damaging To America's Snooping

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-snowdens-leaks-hurt-america-2013-7#ixzz2Y8pvFh3F

How NSA Whistleblower Edward Snowden Botched His Getaway:

Snowden could be stuck in Russia "permanently."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-screwed-up-big-time-2013-6#ixzz2Y8rrbwZp

Members Of Iceland's Parliament Propose Bill To Offer Edward Snowden Citizenship

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/04/iceland-bill-to-grant-citizenship-to-snowden-could-be-foiled-by-fisheries/#ixzz2Y8v85vWo

The 10 Best Places To Seek Asylum From The US Government

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/best-places-to-seek-asylum-from-us-2013-6?op=1#ixzz2Y8tdajMZ

[mania]

Evo Morales threatens to close US embassy in Bolivia as leaders weigh in

Anger at US and EU from Bolivia's left-leaning South American allies at meeting to discuss rerouting of Morales' plane

[jamhar]

Why threatened? either do it or dont. Who does he think he is, Chavez?

Altho he's doing a FINE imitation up to now

But Chavez had all that oil he could use as ammo

Morales doesn't have much.

[Exsexyman]

@ Publicus.

What on earth has the Olympic Games got to do with this topic, as you say, it is off topic so why mention it? As for the rest of your remarks, "Morales junk jet", "Dream Presidency" etc etc, you illustrate perfectly my point regarding institutional racism and a colonial mindset towards South America. Thank you.

[jamhar]

you guys want to get a room somewhere?

I would hate not being invited but at least i would have to watch.

And i do like to watch sometimes, just not dudes

[antfish]

German Social Democrat chairman Sigmar Gabriel: "The first step has to be that public prosecutors travel to Moscow to depose Mr. Snowden as a witness. If they come away with the impression that he is a reliable witness, then admitting him to the witness protection program must be considered."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/spd-demands-investigation-of-nsa-head-as-spy-scandal-enters-campaign-a-909469.html

[Credo]

A German politician running for office is going to have little sway in getting the gov't to do much of anything. Getting Snowdon deposed would require the consent of the Russians. Getting him physically moved to Germany would be even more complicated.

It would be complicated if it is what the gov't wanted to do. It would be unrealistic if it is simply a part of a political campaign.

[Publicus]

Evo Morales threatens to close US embassy in Bolivia as leaders weigh in

Anger at US and EU from Bolivia's left-leaning South American allies at meeting to discuss rerouting of Morales' plane

Blowhards.

South American leftist leaders rally to Bolivia's side in Snowden saga

http://news.yahoo.com/south-american-leftists-rally-bolivias-side-snowden-saga-183441858.html

This meeting, which was supposed to be of all the presidents of South American countries, is a bust as only five presidents are in attendance. Only the leftist brotherhood of leaders are in attendance. Absent are the presidents of Brazil, Columbia, Peru, Chili, Paraguay, Uruguay, Guyana.

Despite the purple rhetoric, no Latin American country has had the nads to offer asylum yet to Snowden, who is wanted by Washington for disclosure of intelligence secrets. Two radical leftist governments - Venezuela and Cuba - are in a cautious rapprochement with the United States that would be jeopardized if they gave him sanctuary.

The record shows Morales' small junk jet requested urgent permission to land in Vienna due to a faulty fuel gauge, yet the five leftist blowhards continue in their flaming rhetoric that Morales was denied access to air space on his return to Bolivia from Moscow, saying it is a basis of "war." After Morales' plane left Vienna it continued on its way thru the air space of France, Spain, Portugal, refueling in the Canary Islands.

Meanwhile, according to Reuters, Russia is growing impatient over Snowden's stay in a Moscow airport and officials have urged him to leave. To which I would add that maybe Russia can equip Snowden to set up a tent on the Artic ice.

Edward Snowden: Russia tells US fugitive to seek asylum elsewhere as impatience grows

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-05/russia-increasingly-impatient-over-snowdens-airport-stay/4800932

Edward Snowden should find another country to seek refuge in, a senior Russian official has said, signalling Moscow's growing impatience over the former US spy agency contractor's stay at a Moscow airport.

Deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov said Russia had received no request for political asylum from Snowden and he had to solve his problems himself after 11 days in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

Moscow also has made clear that Snowden is an increasingly unwelcome guest because the longer he stays, the greater the risk of the diplomatic standoff causing lasting damage to relations with Washington.

"He needs to choose a place to go," Mr Ryabkov said.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Publicus

[manarak]

The worst aspect of Snowden having NSA classified documents and materials is that they reveal how NSA gets its information on terrorists and governments abroad that are hostile towards the U.S.

The Simple Reason Edward Snowden's Leaks Are So Damaging To America's Snooping

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-snowdens-leaks-hurt-america-2013-7#ixzz2Y8pvFh3F

ridiculous.

anyone who has to protect confidentiality of communications or of data already knew before the "revelations" what was going on. one can piece it together very easily from information that is readily available.

the serious terrorists did that too, therefore the results in terms of countering professional terrorists are so dismal. Oh sure, they catch sometimes some Yussuf and Ahmed with their home-built bomb. but the pros can't be stopped by big brother.

everyone are playing dummies - the Europeans are playing outrage at their trade delegation being spied on, and the other statements of shock are equally insincere.

the real damage that is done is the erosion of trust the citizens put into their government and the damage to democracy.