Over 650 dead in Egypt (over 2,000 according to the Islamists).

Several hundred dead in Tiananmen Square, Beijing 1989

Nobody knows how many dead, Bangkok 1992.

Over 80 dead, Bangkok a couple of years ago.

and so on.

It is surely a Government's duty (whether the Government is legitimate or not makes no difference here) to keep the streets clear so that ordinary people can go about their business unhindered. Yet so often it leads to bloodshed. Every time, somebody will plead special reasons, but it all boils down to the same thing.

Again and again, people die to keep the streets clear.

Short of giving in to the protesters in question, what can a Government do?

Not much.

People did not die in Bangkok, Beijing or Cairo "to keep the streets clear".

On each occasion people died in large numbers because the government feared an existential threat to their regime (and not that of the country), and were therefore content to apply deadly force to "resolve" the issue.

Unfortunately, for all concerned, such application of deadly force does little to address the underlying issues and can, not only magnify the issue/s domestically, but also have a profound effect regionally and even globally.

Indiscriminate and ill-disciplined use of deadly force, whether it be exercised in Londonderry (1972), Beijing (1989) or Cairo (2013), is invariably utterly counterproductive for the regime concerned and acts as the perfect recruiting and funding gift for the opposition.

Intelligent view from the Economist (albeit "left-leaning" to some relatives of Atilla):

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21583702-generals-killing-spree-reckless-denial-lessons-arab-spring-battle

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

Indeed, but mowing them down in the streets is not the cleverest thing to do.

If I remember correctly, the Muslim Brotherhood have burned down 38 Christian churches in the past 24 hours. IMO, some force is justified.

How to clear the streets?

I was involved in some demonstrations (read 'riots') in Malta in the 1980s, during vacations from my work in Libya. There were many thousand very angry protestors on the streets until the police came out with water cannon. It was soon very apparent that these water cannon were loaded with sewage.

The roiters were dispersed within minutes.

People did not die in Bangkok, Beijing or Cairo "to keep the streets clear".

On each occasion people died in large numbers because the government feared an existential threat to their regime (and not that of the country), and were therefore content to apply deadly force to "resolve" the issue.

Unfortunately, for all concerned, such application of deadly force does little to address the underlying issues and can, not only magnify the issue/s domestically, but also have a profound effect regionally and even globally.

Indiscriminate and ill-disciplined use of deadly force, whether it be exercised in Londonderry (1972), Beijing (1989) or Cairo (2013), is invariably utterly counterproductive for the regime concerned and acts as the perfect recruiting and funding gift for the opposition.

Intelligent view from the Economist (albeit "left-leaning" to some relatives of Atilla):

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21583702-generals-killing-spree-reckless-denial-lessons-arab-spring-battle

I take your point, folium. I was in Hong Kong during the Tienanmen Square incident, and in Thailand during the two Bangkok incidents, and I'm aware of the circumstances.

Whether the Government acts for its own political reasons or not, the fact remains that the ongoing protests did not allow ordinary people to go about their business, and had to be stopped somehow. HB's account of loading water cannons with sewage sounds a splendid idea!

I also agree with folium that such excessive force is counterproductive, but what are the alternatives? Water cannons using sewage, or dyed water seem to be two alternatives (although being dyed might be seen as a badge of honour!). Are there any others?

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

It's all the more difficult if the protesters are cynically shooting their own members for propaganda purposes. Shades of Pallywood here perchance?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3890/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-kills-own

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

It's all the more difficult if the protesters are cynically shooting their own members for propaganda purposes. Shades of Pallywood here perchance?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3890/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-kills-own

The first reader's comment below this link is, "This is not news." It happens in many of the more violent protests. It almost certainly happened in Bangkok two years ago, and probably in 1992. (I don't think it happened at Tienanmen Square).

Protesters also take the opportunity to work out their own grudges, e.g. the burning of Christian churches by the Egyptian mobs.

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

It's all the more difficult if the protesters are cynically shooting their own members for propaganda purposes. Shades of Pallywood here perchance?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3890/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-kills-own

The first reader's comment below this link is, "This is not news." It happens in many of the more violent protests. It almost certainly happened in Bangkok two years ago, and probably in 1992. (I don't think it happened at Tienanmen Square).

Protesters also take the opportunity to work out their own grudges, e.g. the burning of Christian churches by the Egyptian mobs.

Very true...

Periods of intense armed civil unrest produce all sorts of nasty outcomes and the 2 cases highlighted could well be very typical of such situations or indeed could even be self-inflicted for publicity generation.

They could also be the byproduct of over-excited, untrained civvies with a gun; or classic score-settling under the cover of the conflict scenario; or were actually shot by the military/police. The case of the guy with little evidence of a gun shot wound on the side facing the military but significant damage on the side facing away is indicative of someone shot with a high velocity round producing a small entry wound but a nasty mess on exit. Check out images of JFK's skull re the second shot, or almost any episode of CSI for more details!

Had to chuckle about the line from the article that stated that Muslims might have to resort to "killing other Muslims, lying, prostituion and even sodomy"

As if sodomy was the worst thing imaginable. But perhaps Horowitz and his ilk are as homophobic or anal sex phobic as much as they are Muslim-phobic!

Dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood is a rather sticky wicket. They have spawned numerous terrorist groups and did their best to circumvent democracy in Egypt.

It's all the more difficult if the protesters are cynically shooting their own members for propaganda purposes. Shades of Pallywood here perchance?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3890/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-kills-own

The first reader's comment below this link is, "This is not news." It happens in many of the more violent protests. It almost certainly happened in Bangkok two years ago, and probably in 1992. (I don't think it happened at Tienanmen Square).

Protesters also take the opportunity to work out their own grudges, e.g. the burning of Christian churches by the Egyptian mobs.

Very true...

Periods of intense armed civil unrest produce all sorts of nasty outcomes and the 2 cases highlighted could well be very typical of such situations or indeed could even be self-inflicted for publicity generation.

They could also be the byproduct of over-excited, untrained civvies with a gun; or classic score-settling under the cover of the conflict scenario; or were actually shot by the military/police. The case of the guy with little evidence of a gun shot wound on the side facing the military but significant damage on the side facing away is indicative of someone shot with a high velocity round producing a small entry wound but a nasty mess on exit. Check out images of JFK's skull re the second shot, or almost any episode of CSI for more details!

Had to chuckle about the line from the article that stated that Muslims might have to resort to "killing other Muslims, lying, prostituion and even sodomy"

As if sodomy was the worst thing imaginable. But perhaps Horowitz and his ilk are as homophobic or anal sex phobic as much as they are Muslim-phobic!

Your trolling. Is seldom worth responding to,but seeing as you mention sodomy I do recall a recent fatwa allowing sodomy in order to expand the anal cavity so more explosives could be packed into it. The sodomised would obviously be heading straight to paradise, but I don't know whether the dispensation applies to the sodomiser. I suppose to be safe the sodomiser could in turn get sodomised and blow yet more people to kingdom come, the end results could be Darwinian in implications.

A daisy-chain of fundamentalists?

The fundament as employed by the fundamentalists?

The mind boggles !

This just seems to underline how those afflicted with GFE (group focused enmity) seldom fixate on only a single group within the range of commonly targeted groups ( ie immigrants, women, gays, Muslims and Jews).

This pathetic, and basically puerile little tale ( if not outright troll), enables an easy/idle conflation of Muslim and indulging in "gay-type" activity. Gosh how awful.....

Meanwhile back on topic, the heavy-handed security force response in Egypt is now moving the country towards an Algerian style end-game. This was not the case prior to this last week's activities, but with the latest killing of some 36 Islamists "while trying to escape" ( the classic line for out of hand summary executions the world over), on top of the deaths which probably already number north of 1,000, the possibility of this does get closer.

As the unfortunate resignation of al Barradei from the provisional government noted in his resignation letter:

"Violence begets violence".

And to continue from the same source of his quote:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

This just seems to underline how those afflicted with GFE (group focused enmity) seldom fixate on only a single group within the range of commonly targeted groups ( ie immigrants, women, gays, Muslims and Jews).

This pathetic, and basically puerile little tale ( if not outright troll), enables an easy/idle conflation of Muslim and indulging in "gay-type" activity. Gosh how awful.....

Meanwhile back on topic, the heavy-handed security force response in Egypt is now moving the country towards an Algerian style end-game. This was not the case prior to this last week's activities, but with the latest killing of some 36 Islamists "while trying to escape" ( the classic line for out of hand summary executions the world over), on top of the deaths which probably already number north of 1,000, the possibility of this does get closer.

As the unfortunate resignation of al Barradei from the provisional government noted in his resignation letter:

"Violence begets violence".

And to continue from the same source of his quote:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

Just to note, the Muslim coastal areas of North Africa used to be a Mecca for gay tourists (and I probably deserve a fatwah for saying that!).

Yes, Egypt's way of clearing the streets definitely seems to be the wrong way.... as were the authorities' efforts in the other three cases. But what is the solution? Water cannons loaded with sewage is likely to be a small-scale affair, suitable in small places like Malta. But what could the Egyptians have done?

My personal experience was during the 1978 Iranian revolution against the Shah.

The authorities started dispersing the crowd using tear gas. Got caught a few times with this.

When that produced limited results, they resorted to automatic weapons. At least that kept me off the streets.

This just seems to underline how those afflicted with GFE (group focused enmity) seldom fixate on only a single group within the range of commonly targeted groups ( ie immigrants, women, gays, Muslims and Jews).

This pathetic, and basically puerile little tale ( if not outright troll), enables an easy/idle conflation of Muslim and indulging in "gay-type" activity. Gosh how awful.....

Meanwhile back on topic, the heavy-handed security force response in Egypt is now moving the country towards an Algerian style end-game. This was not the case prior to this last week's activities, but with the latest killing of some 36 Islamists "while trying to escape" ( the classic line for out of hand summary executions the world over), on top of the deaths which probably already number north of 1,000, the possibility of this does get closer.

As the unfortunate resignation of al Barradei from the provisional government noted in his resignation letter:

"Violence begets violence".

And to continue from the same source of his quote:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

Just to note, the Muslim coastal areas of North Africa used to be a Mecca for gay tourists (and I probably deserve a fatwah for saying that!).

Yes, Egypt's way of clearing the streets definitely seems to be the wrong way.... as were the authorities' efforts in the other three cases. But what is the solution? Water cannons loaded with sewage is likely to be a small-scale affair, suitable in small places like Malta. But what could the Egyptians have done?

Don't underestimate the amount of sh1t in Cairo, the place is filthy by most accounts. I do recall a case of a local council in northern England that took to spraying local woods with pig excreta in order to stop local 'youths ' from loitering there and taking drugs etc, perhaps Pig waste would be even more effective in Egypt, though I suspect it would need to be imported.

P.S. Folium, anyone without the memory of a goldfish will recall you brought sodomy up, so to call it trolling when someone replies in kind is dishonest, even by your standards. And to further underline your dishonesty I have consistently been pro-gay rights and women's rights on all Thaivisa threads, find an example to disprove that if you can.

This just seems to underline how those afflicted with GFE (group focused enmity) seldom fixate on only a single group within the range of commonly targeted groups ( ie immigrants, women, gays, Muslims and Jews).

This pathetic, and basically puerile little tale ( if not outright troll), enables an easy/idle conflation of Muslim and indulging in "gay-type" activity. Gosh how awful.....

Meanwhile back on topic, the heavy-handed security force response in Egypt is now moving the country towards an Algerian style end-game. This was not the case prior to this last week's activities, but with the latest killing of some 36 Islamists "while trying to escape" ( the classic line for out of hand summary executions the world over), on top of the deaths which probably already number north of 1,000, the possibility of this does get closer.

As the unfortunate resignation of al Barradei from the provisional government noted in his resignation letter:

"Violence begets violence".

And to continue from the same source of his quote:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

Just to note, the Muslim coastal areas of North Africa used to be a Mecca for gay tourists (and I probably deserve a fatwah for saying that!).

Yes, Egypt's way of clearing the streets definitely seems to be the wrong way.... as were the authorities' efforts in the other three cases. But what is the solution? Water cannons loaded with sewage is likely to be a small-scale affair, suitable in small places like Malta. But what could the Egyptians have done?

Don't underestimate the amount of sh1t in Cairo, the place is filthy by most accounts. I do recall a case of a local council in northern England that took to spraying local woods with pig excreta in order to stop local 'youths ' from loitering there and taking drugs etc, perhaps Pig waste would be even more effective in Egypt, though I suspect it would need to be imported.

P.S. Folium, anyone without the memory of a goldfish will recall you brought sodomy up, so to call it trolling when someone replies in kind is dishonest, even by your standards. And to further underline your dishonesty I have consistently been pro-gay rights and women's rights on all Thaivisa threads, find an example to disprove that if you can.

The Horowitz piece you introduced was the one fixated with sodomy.

The trolling was also in relation to that article as it appears to be an unfounded attempt to conflate two popular hate targets (for those with GFE issues).

Glad to hear that you don't have issues with at least 2 out of 5 of the popular hate groups ( I believe you might be Jewish so that would presumably make the score 3 out of 5. Congratulations.

Meanwhile back on topic, the pig sh1t etc will do little to resolve the issue. Bottom line is that the significant minority of Islamists need to feel part of a transitional government, and excluding them and attempting to crush them will drive them both underground and into the arms of the real extremists. Dealing with people you may not like at best is what is required to achieve any sustainable political solution. There is never a purely military/force driven solution as tempting as it may seem at the outset.

PS just to bust another myth re another group you seem keen to disparage check out this link;

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/10/goldfish-do-not-have-a-three-second-memory/

The Muslim Brotherhood already are real extremists. Ban them completely.

The Muslim Brotherhood already are real extremists. Ban them completely.

Shallow, UG, very shallow.

Banning a religious organisation is the best way to help it expand.

Don't underestimate the amount of sh1t in Cairo, the place is filthy by most accounts.

You would have to collect the shit first before you could use it in water cannon.

The Muslim Brotherhood already are real extremists. Ban them completely.

Shallow, UG, very shallow.

Banning a religious organisation is the best way to help it expand.

IMO, it is not a true religious organization. It is much more of a political group and a violent one . Their motto pretty much says it all:

"Allah is our objective; the Quran is our law, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations."

The Muslim Brotherhood already are real extremists. Ban them completely.

Shallow, UG, very shallow.

Banning a religious organisation is the best way to help it expand.

You can't reason with followers of a totalitarian ideology any more than you can with the insane. Appeasement or attempts to compromise with them result at best in worthless scraps of paper, such as what Chamberlain received from Hitler. Eradication of the ideology is indeed the only answer, Churchill understood this, not one single Western leader appears to do today.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/crush-the-muslim-brotherhood/